1) Ask (3) questions from the chapter that you'd really like answered.
2) Write a response, choosing a line and explaining it's significance to you. Please remember: no plot re-cap! Share your analysis, make connections to the world, ask questions, discuss imagery, and deepen your thinking.
3) Don't forget to respond to someone else's post!
3) Don't forget to respond to someone else's post!
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ReplyDeleteQuestions:
ReplyDeleteWhat is the significance of the sea's movement and taking Simon's body out to sea?
What do they flies signify that surround the dead and him signify?
Will the littluns join Jack and his group?
Response:
There was a lot going on in this chapter, but what I felt I could really talk about is when Piggy and Ralph arrive at the feast: "Piggy once more was the center of social derision so that everyone felt cheerful and normal" (149). I think it's interesting that Piggy's misfortune and display of inferiority is their source of joy. All the boys on the island struggle with powr and dominance. Piggy, and sometimes the littluns are their example to something they are more powerful than. Struggled people need someone inferior to make themselves feel better. It is the classic bullying story, except it's with like 10 boys. Why is it that people need to do this? There's the obvious answer of insecurity, but they are away from the civilized world and against any real judgment except themselves, so why do they still need to criticize Piggy. It's obviously more complicated, but I find it interesting. Are humans naturally insecure, or is it the boy's prior knowledge and lives still lingering with them?
I disagree. Piggy is not a source of joy for the boys, but instead he acts as a reminder for the boys, almost like a twisted beacon of hope. His misfortunes remind the others, 'at least I don't have it as bad as that Piggy,' which is why they tend to single him out and jeer at him collectively, in my opinion. They do feel insecurity, but at this point it is a more primal version of the feeling which generally relates to survival as opposed to gossip and public scrutiny. However, humiliation is still a very real emotion among the boys, which is exemplified by Jack's reaction when he first attempts to redo the vote and elect himself chief; the humiliation at his failed goal is as much a reason why he runs away to the mountain as his repulse of Ralph.
DeletePiggy is, in his own convoluted and bumbling way, the last reminder of a better time for many of the boys.
I don't know if I agree with the reminder part but you're absolutely right about the insecurity part.
Delete(Sorry... I have to post this separately from my response...)
ReplyDelete1) Piggy and Ralph end up going to visit Jack's tribe and are readily recieved by Jack without conflict at first contact: why wouldn't Jack immediately refuse these two entrance to his domain, and why would he actually behave hospitably at the start?
2) Simon is the only one who discovers that the frightening 'Beast' is really just the dead parachutist; what is the significance of him being killed as well, and not being recognized other than as a new 'Beast?' How can this connect back to the Lord of the Flies in the last chapter, and what it says to Simon then?
3) What are the ephemeral creatures that take Simon away? Could their existence suggest that there really is something supernatural on the island, or is the description simply using 'magical' qualities to explain something as simple as a corpse being washed out to sea (jellyfish are a fairly common sight in tropical beach areas...)?
"Piggy and Ralph, under the threat of the sky, found themselves eager to take a place in this demented but partly secure society."
ReplyDeleteThis statement hightlights the fact that has brought all the boys together again under a new leader: despite their immmense differences, none of the boys are by any means willing to split off on their own: that is part of the reason why Jack, who did just that in his fit of rage, holds a lot of power over the others. Ralph and Piggy are subject to this 'comfort in numbers' way of life as well, and it is easy to see that this shows the weakness and immaturity in all of them for that; the first ones to be described that way were the littluns, who consorted in groups for comfort and recreation.
The fact that these urges reach so far into the mind of even Ralph shows that Jack is actually the best leader of the island. Using his methods, he is able to gain the support, willing or not, of every boy on the island, thereby subliminally bending them to his will. His ability to make everyone do what he wants is something that Ralph's society lacked, and even though that is because Ralph was making rational descisions from a more mature, adult standpoint, Jack is doing things the way young boys would see it done, and is immediately the more appealing choice for the rest of the boys.
His ability to gather the children into one force that will basically submit to him unconditionally makes him immediately an infinitely more powerful and successful leader than Ralph ever was, regardless of his deranged tendencies.
I wouldn't go so far to say that his ability to gain followers and give orders necessarily makes him necessarily successful, although he is powerful. His success is only in his context, if that's what you mean, but a successful leader leads the right way. You said it yourself, Jack has deranged tendencies. I wonder what really defines a great leader. Everyone has different expectations. Hitler was a powerful leader, but was he successful? I see a downfall coming because eventually no good comes to bad.
DeleteOops. Said necessarily twice.
DeleteI kind of agree with both sides. I see your side Kia, as I do feel that so far, he has been successful. While Ralph may have appealed more to "civilized" adults, Jack appealed more to the younger children, as he was more about the "fun" aspect of living on the island, as opossed to Ralph's constant seriousness. The fact that he is also strict and intimidating, makes the boys feel even more secure, and more drawn to him. Going back to Teddy's side, it is true that it depends on what you look at as being successful, but for the time being, I feel like Jack is. Although Hitler in the end was not, during his reign, people did feel that he was successful. It is still so early on in his leadership that I really don't feel we can judge him as not successful, as he has done everything he has wanted and so far, the rest of his "tribe" is happy with him.
DeleteWait, sorry, Teddy, what does "no good comes to bad" mean?
DeleteI see what you're saying, and it makes a lot of sense, but that one line is confusing me greatly.
Sorry.
1) Why did Piggy, a boy most interested in keeping the peace and staying sane, participate in the killing of Simon
ReplyDelete2) Was Simons death accidental or was it on purpose? If so, why?
3) Will the boys stay in Jack’s group for the fun, or will they move to Ralph’s group for the hope of rescue?
“Evening was come, not with calm beauty but with the threat of violence. Jack spoke. ‘Give me a drink’” (150)
I loved this quote for two reasons: it shows the trouble that was about to occur and it also shows Jack acting as a dictator/ master. When the sun drops and evening occurs by the ocean it’s usually not a very crazy wild part of the day, it’s calm and beautiful. However, on this island, the nighttime now signifies violence and trouble. We see this violence play out in the killing of Simon. It makes me wonder if this killing, or sacrifice, will be occurring more often or whether the boys have had a little taste of power and are dying for more. We definitely see Jack’s want for power. Killing a pig wasn’t good enough; he must kill one of his own. Jack also has enough power to be able to order another boy to get him a drink. The boy could be doing because he sees Jack has given him dinner and must be rewarded, or that he is scared of the punishment that might occur if he doesn’t receive the drink. I tend to think the latter. How long will Jack be able to continue on this hunt for power?
I like how you note that the violence occurred at nightfall. I noted something similar, that these tragedies, the plain crash and Simon's death, happen during a rainstorm. I had not noted the correlation between night and tragedy, but that is interesting. I was also interested to see how the group would react to Simon's death, especially Jack and Ralph. I expect it to affect their roles as leaders, but I am not sure how yet.
Deletetumut
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWhat will the boys killing Simon because of Jack through transitive property, do to his leadership?
ReplyDeleteWhat does the body of the parachuter falling onto the beach after all these events symbolize?
Will the death of Simon lead the boys back to Ralph? If not, how will Jack deal with this tragedy?
“Piggy was inspecting the looming sky through his glass. I don’t like them clouds. Remember how it rained just after we landed? Going to rain again” (147)
I chose this quote because it preceded Simon’s death. Piggy says he doesn’t like the clouds and asks if he remembers how it rained after the crash. Ralph responds it is going to rain again. I think the author is using rain to symbolize or forewarn a tragedy or catastrophe. The first storm cam right after the crash, and the second storm of which they are referring, comes right after Simon’s death. This storm also illuminates the already the space growing between the children. When the storm hits the author uses the word scatter to describe the boys behavior, which found to be an interesting choice of words. It made me imagine the boys as mice scattering when someone turns the lights on in a dark room. This storm made me wonder if we will see any other storms throughout the story, and if so what they will forewarn.
I agree with your explanation of how rain symbolizes a tragedy. Normally, people wouldn't consider a storm to be happy and cheerful, but as gloomy and sad. The events that take place on the island when a storm hits aren't happy or cheerful at all. I also think that when a storm hits people just want it to be over with already and move on. So in the boys case, they don't explore the crash when it happened, they just assumed it is 'beast' and as for Simon's death since the storms occurs right after it, the boys all run for shelter instead of taking a moment to realize what terrible thing had just happened. It will be surprising to see if another storm comes for the third time and how it will effect the group's actions.
Delete1. Why did they kill Simon? Did they think he was the beast?
ReplyDelete2. Why did Piggy and Ralph participate in Jack's ceremnony? Was it simply out of intimidation?
3. What effect will the death of Simon have not only on Jack's tribe but with Piggy and Ralph as well?
"The water rose farther and dressed Simon's coarse hair with brightness. the line of his cheek silvered and the turn of his shoulders became sculptued marble." p.154
I found this quote to be pretty significant because it really shows the true essence of Simon's nature as a person. Even when he is dead, he still has a certain brightness to him and seems almost God-like. His description serves him as a supernatural being, with the marble and silvering on his cheeks. I also find it signifigant that in the last chapter we saw him, he was being engulfed into darkness by the Lord of the Flies. Now, not until his death do we see him instead, being swallowed into brightness. The fact that he was swept out to see also suggests another peaceful way of passing away, contrasting to his rather violent death. Although this may seem far fetched, similar to how in today's class, one of the questions was about the death of the pig and how it was signifigant it was a female, symbolizing a mother, Simon almost seemed to be the most "motherly" figure of the group. He was the most gentle, and seemed to be the most nurturing, as well as possessing the most knowledge and common sense. The boys killed him in a very similar way that they did to the pig, highlighting the fact that they want to get rid of anything remotely similar to kindness, or even an adult- like figure.
I agree. I was wondering why Simon's death and his body being put into the water was described calmly and in a way peaceful but I see why now. SImon was the most gentle and the voice of reason on the island. He was the only one that didn't seem to be involved in the arguing and violence on the island, he was like the better person. He had the most knowledge out of everybody. WIth all these qualities he contained it makes you question still why Simon out of the boys? the fact his body is described so nicely shows that his death wasn't to put a downer on things, but to maybe make the boys find the good in themselves. I feel like it's something the boys should really look at and think of what they're doing. Possibly I think he dies to try and make the boys try to gain their normal mentality again and think like human beings, like young boys. not like beast and savages.
DeleteI agree!! Simon was like the motherly one especially toward the littler ones, always helping them. Also I do agree that Simon is at peace when he dies and floats away in the ocean and for one of my question I asked if Simon floating away was a symbol that he is finally free from the island, and I think this quote really shows that because he is finally away from all the chaos that surrounded him and is finally at peace like he was rescued from the island in its own way.
Delete1) What does does Simon's death mean in terms of his interaction with the Lord of the Flies?
ReplyDelete2) What is the significance of Ralph and Piggy nor being able to resist dancing and chanting with the rest of the group?
3) What does the parachuter falling on the beach symbolize?
This chapter further illustrates the boys decent into chaos and savagery. The concept of the beast has allowed Jack to assume full control over almost the entire group, using fear and protection as motivation to obey him. Now that Ralph has lost his control, the group has lost the only logical morality it had left. Also, I believe that there is significance in the fact that Simon was the only one who knew the beast lives inside everyone, and yet he was killed as soon as he came back. This shows the last sliver of rationality being crushed by the subhuman nature they have all succumb to.
Why is the parachute guy still being talked about in this chapter? What does this signify?
ReplyDeleteI have seen the word 'movement' constantly in this chapter. What was Golding trying to say or try to represent with the idea of movement?
Will Simon's death affect the boys, specifically Jack and Ralph>
"Piggy and Ralph,under the threat of the sky, found themselves eager to take place in the demented but partly secure society" (152).
Compared to the rest of the chapter this line particularly grabbed my attention as soon as I read it. Piggy and Ralph thought that they could have a better society than Jack with his hunting ideas. They go to Jack's society to eat meat and they see Jack and his followers doing the dance. Golding uses, the word 'eager' to describe Piggy and Ralph which I found interesting. They seem to have the closest thing to the voice of reason but they find themselves attracted to Jack and his ideas. I think Golding uses the word eager to show the island is what has overpowered them now. It is no longer about getting rescued, it's more about being savage. Now, they seem to do things just for entertainment because the idea of getting rescued doesn't seem to cross their minds at all in this chapter. This shows that they still are kids and even when Ralph and Piggy try to have the mentality of a grown up they still have their young mentality. Golding also uses the words 'demented but partly secured' which I think is the most significant part of this line. Demented means to be driven to behave irrationally due to anger, distress, or excitement, and in the context of this book anger, distress, and excitement is what drives them in this society. All the actions taken have been a result of anger or excitement. For example, when Jack killed a pig for the first time the excitement drove him to only care about hunting. Anger is what led them to split within the island into two separate society's. Ralph and Piggy know that even though Jack only cares about eating meat and giving the boys what they want, Jack is still this form of protection and help for them. Piggy and Ralph alone would not be able to catch meat on their own and they know they need Jack to do it. Jack is the most outgoing in this book and maybe even the bravest even if it's only an act he puts on making him a good source of protection. Even though Ralph and Piggy try to be mature they're still kids that can't do things on their own and are dependent of others, in this case Jack. Making them want to be a part of the society.
1. what is the significance of the rain?
ReplyDeletethe rain brings nothing but bad memories as recalled by piggy who remembers how it rained shortly after they arrived at the island.
2.Why does Ralph claim to have power?
it is very noticeable that Ralph as lost his position as a leader, and saying "i'm chief" makes him sound annoying and really doesn't help raise to power. it is obvious that Jack has taken his role as a leader and is now in charge. Everyone is paying a attention to him and leave Ralph with the support of Piggy and Simon.
3. what is the importance of Simon's death?
well simon's death doesn't symbolize a good future rather a dark one,because he was the most humane out of all of the them, and with him gone its not really good sign. the irony is that he called people beast yet he died one.
Questions:
ReplyDelete1)Why did Golding name the chapter, “A View to a Death”? What does the title signify?
2)Will Piggy and Ralph ultimately join Jack’s tribe? If they do, will they become inhuman like Jack?
3)What does Simon’s brutal murder reveal about the boys in Jacks tribe? What does it reveal about the island in general?
Response:
"There were no words, and no movements but the tearing of teeth and claws” (153).
This quote really stood out to me because it shows how brutally the littleluns murder Simon. Without even fully understand what happened, the littleluns start to tear Simon apart by biting him continuously. It’s kind of scary to imagine young boys around the age of 10 killing someone so viciously. This quote ultimately reveals how Jack and his littluns are inhuman savages. They are merciless and this quote indicates how they’re becoming animals: “No movements but the tearing of teeth and claws” I would imagine a wild animal doing this, however, young boys are doing this and that is not normal. I hope Ralph and Jack do not join Jacks tribe. I'm actually shocked that Simon died; I really did not want him to die merely because he was the only one who actually realized that the rest of the boys are becoming savages. I hope the boys realize that killing Simon was bad and also I want them to regret it.
1. What's up with Simon? Is he "batty" or ill in a way?
ReplyDelete2. Why isn't Ralph fighting for his tribe! He seems to have given up after all this time, its a shame.
3. When Piggy and Ralph decide to go to the gathering Jack is holding, the boys seem to be having so much fun, and food. What was the different between Jack and Ralph's leadership? is it the food?
"'Take them some meat' ...Jack rose from the log that was his throne" (149-150"
This quote shows the difference in leadership skills between Jack and Ralph, i think. In the beginning of the story we see Jack enter as a sort of dictator, leader of the choir boys, and ever since Ralph has been named chief, he has been fighting for power. He's finally got it and he's using it very well over the boys; they have food, and they listen to him without question. The fact the Gloding calls the log a "throne" for Jack and just a log for Ralph shows how Jack sees himself; and that is king.
I know what you mean, however I took this quote in a different tone. I thought that the reference to the throne showed just how far Ralph had fallen. He is supposed to be the chief, yet another boy sits atop a throne. Also, the fact that Ralph must be offered food by Jack before he is able to eat shows who is really in charge of the island. Jack has the means for survival, while Ralph does not.
DeleteI agree, I also feel like Jack is a dictator and Ralph is more of a president or freelancing political leader. It seems like everyone is fighting for this "throne" and it intrigues me that as much as Ralph tries to separate himself from this desire, he conforms to what society wants. He needs the power as much as Jack, and the only people who don't desire the power, Piggy and Simon, are silenced throughout the book. They're chastised because of their intelligence and this is one of the main reasons Golding kills Simon in this chapter.
DeleteQuestions:
ReplyDelete1. Why do you think Ralph attempts to stop people from joining Jack's group, when in the beginning of the story, Ralph was nominated to be leader by force?
2. Why do you think Golding would kill the last civilized and most reasonable person on the island?
3. Do you think Simon was accepting himself as the beast, when he said he was the beast, or was it just a joke?
Quote:
"Evening was come, not with clam beauty but with the threat of violence." 172
This quote stood out to me because it shows us two parallel's, beauty and violence. The sentence is both contradicting but appealing because it introduces the thought of a beautiful death. Golding also, reveals the conflict between Jack and Ralph after this line showing a building climax, and with Simon's death he finishes strong. Why do you think Golding makes Ralph fight for his pride? Ralph is always looked up to as this confident pretty boy, but Golding mentions that his past life was so simple. Jack, on the other hand, can handle the spotlight and although he's very self-conscience is willing to take risks for his benefits. Why do you think people are more attracted to Jack and not Ralph?
Which group are the littluns in? Jacks or Ralphs?
ReplyDeleteWhat does the swarm of flies represent?
Why is such a gruesome death depicted as beautiful when it is washed away?
"There was the throb and stamp of a single organism." (p.152)
I found this quote particularly interesting because it implied that all the boys get along and act as one. With the recent breaking up of the groups, I found this quite odd. Ralph and Piggy basically just showed up to Jack's party, uninvited, and ate all of his food. Now they are going to act like they all love each other again? It just doesn't make much sense, does Ralph suddenly feel threatened? Maybe he finally realized how important the hunters are to life on the island, and that without them he and his group would starve. When all the boys join in and dance, I would have thought that Ralph would have settled them down, telling them not to be so barbaric and cruel. However he actually takes part in the dance and enjoys the company of the other boys.
I agree; it is strange to see everyone acting like one family, especially when chaos is currently breaking out on the island. I believe the boys act as one and think as one, only when they are savage. Once they are in their savage mode, they all want the same thing: to kill. Savageness could be uniting everyone to think in the same way. Ralph does feel suddenly threatened. He is losing his authority and influence on others. He knows Jack is taking over, and I can tell he is frightened by this. I guess Ralph has no choice, so he joins in with the rant. He knows civilization has already collapsed, so what more can he do? Or perhaps Ralph joins in with the savageness because he just wants to be accepted by society. Right now, “society” is defined by Jack’s way of running the island.
DeleteWhat were the boys' thought processes before they killed Simon?
ReplyDeleteWhat is the significance of Golding referring to Simon as "the beast"?
What is the significance of both the parachute man and Simon's dead bodies drifting out to sea?
"While Roger mimed the terror of the pig, the littluns ran and jumped on the outside of the circle. Piggy and Ralph, under the threat of the sky, found themselves eager to take a place in this demented but partly secure society"(174).
This quote stood out to me because I think Golding captures a major theme in the novel. His description Jack's newly formed group as a "demented but partly secure society," which I think applies to the whole island's dynamic. Jack's group is savage and obviously corrupt, yet Ralph and Piggy can't help but want to join. Golding also uses the weather and the "threat of the sky" to foreshadow Simon's death and the complete loss of discipline and innocence that the boys undergo. Reading this made me wonder, in what ways is this society partly secure, and in what ways are they demented?
In response to your questions I think that Simon is referred to as the beast in reference to when he said that maybe the boys themselves are the beast. He is showing that firsthand, and it implies that the beast is a complete figment of their imagination. Also i think it is significant that both "beasts", Simon, and the man float to sea together because it is as if now the sign of humanity and society (the man), and the person who knew that the beast doesnt exist (Simon), have disappeared, leaving the boys to their own devices.
Delete-Why did Simon have to die of all characters?
ReplyDelete-Did the boys realize that they had killed Simon? If not, then when will they and what will they think of themselves?
-What effect will Simon's death have on the boys?
"There were no words, and no movements but the tearing of teeth and claws" (pg 153)
This line really stood out to me because it shows how these young boys have transformed into savages. It is horrifying that Simon not only passed away at such a young age by a group of young savages, but the way he had died. An animal or beast would kill using it's mouth and claws whereas humans would use their hands or a weapon, but in this case, Simon was murdered by beasts. This line shows that a beast had never existed, the beast had always existed inside the boys. Simon's death represents the evil that humans have inside of them and the evil that humans are capable of.
I agree with you, I feel like the boys have transformed into savages and they don't even realize it. The only person who realized it was brutally murdered by the boys. I agree with your statement that there was no beast and that the beast existed only within the boys. I feel like Simon's death shows how evil human beings can be and that age does not matter; evilness can start from any age. Will the boys realize that they have become savages? What will be the consequences of Simon's death? Will they boys remorse and regret because of how they killed Simon? Or will they forget about it like they did about the boy who died in the fire?
Delete-Do the boys see the parachute man near the end of the chapter?
ReplyDelete-Did everyone join in the killing of Simon? Was Ralph and Piggy sucked into the savageness as well?
-Why didn’t Ralph or Piggy stop anyone from attacking Simon?
“The parachute took the figure forward, furrowing the lagoon, and bumped it over the reef and out to sea.” (153) I was surprised to see that Golding creates two simultaneous events: Simon dies while the parachute man is lifted away. Once the parachute man is gone, no one will know that Simon was in fact telling the truth. The loss of the parachute man symbolizes the complete loss of the adult word, or authority. Simon’s death is especially sad because I do not think anyone heard him say the beast was only a dead man. He should have at least gotten his words heard. And even if the boys did hear him, they would have pushed the idea away. In society, no one listens to outsiders. Outcasts are not accepted and listened to, even when they are right. The loss of Simon is a pity for the boys because he was the most reasonable boy out of everyone on the island. He knew there was no beast all along, and if he spoke up, then there would not have been any chaos. Simon would have made a great leader. Do human beings choose not to listen to outcasts even when they are right? Or do they simply refuse to believe outcasts? If so, why?
If Simon was truly the beast(in Jack's mind) why does he believe that it is still among them, even if Simon is dead?
ReplyDeleteJack is stupid, ruthless and for what reason, is he so conceited that he can't live on island with another power?
What is the significance of Simon's death, Simon was the most rational and sane character left on the island, and with him gone, what will come of the boys?
"Piggy once more was the center of social derision so that everyone felt cheerful and normal" (149) After reading this, I did not understand why there is such a focus on emotional abuse as well as physical abuse. Countless times throughout the novel, boys will bully each other, emotionally and physically and for what reason? Ralph changed because at first, in my opinion, he came across as someone who would be above bullying and teasing-yet we see that things have changed. Then we see something to contradict that. Ralph gets a taste of his own medicine in a way when Jack sends his tribe to assault and raid what is possessions Ralph and his tribe have left. After reflecting on the situation Ralph acknowledges that he would have gladly shared if they had just asked. This is interesting to me because I wonder if Ralph, now being in the shoes of the other boys who have been bullied or killed, will realize what the other boys went through and change for the better; change back into the old Ralph and somehow reunite with the other boys to become more successful.
I totally agree,
DeleteI think that on the island the boys are struggling with their own feelings and emotions. They are caught up by the old life they used to live, with rules and parents and school, but here on the island, those are all gone. The boys do not understand how to act, should they let their inner animal totally take over or should they act like nothing has changed. Two characters that show both side of this argument are Piggy and Jack. Jack wants to have fun, go hunt, and wear masks while Piggy wants to figure out exactly how to get off the island as soon as possible. I think that a lot of this book is concentrated on the struggle between the boy's outer and inner self.
1. Will Simon's death lead to a "war" between the two groups?
ReplyDelete2. Why didn't any one try to stop each other from killing Simon?
3. Does this connect to what Simon said before, that they are the beast?
“Surrounded by a fringe of inquisitive bright creatures, itself a silver shape beneath the steadfast constellations, Simon's dead body moved out toward the open sea” (154).
To me, this sentence is kind of stating that Simon is finally free from this island. He’s moving toward the open sea: he’s moving towards freedom. Golding now describes the kids as “bright Creatures” which I don’t really understand the “bright” part because if anything, shouldn’t they be dark creatures instead? They did just kill one of their members and they are going pretty insane. This kind of reminds me of when people are at war they don’t really know what they are doing and who they are killing. The soldiers are just simply obeying their chief/ leader. It’s sad to see Simon go because I felt that he is actually the more mature one in this story, he somewhat actually knows what he is doing unlike the other kids.
I agree with the fact that freedom is involved in this, but could it be that the other boys were free? Once Simon died, he was set free from the island, but the boys were not yet set free of Simon. They were still living with his body. I feel like the bright creatures may symbolize some sense of relief, everyone was stressed about the beast situation, and now that something new has happened and been done with, they feel relived that they all got through it and are now able to start moving forward. I also agree that Simon seemed more mature than the others, he was usually paying attention to his surroundings, and he tried to think of all possible outcomes. Moving out into the open sea, reading that over again makes me feel like maybe they were pushing him away. Simon's ideas were always being questioned because no one thought the way he thought, which caused him to go out on his own. They never really gave him a chance, and they pushed him away instead because they did not want to deal with him.
DeleteQuestions
ReplyDelete1. Who or what is the Lord of the Flies?
2. Will the death of Simon positively or negatively effect Ralph's mission to keep the fire going?
3. What do the two different groups of boys represent?
Response
"Jack spoke again, impatiently. 'Has everyone eaten as much as they want?'" (149)
I think this moment is interesting because it is clear that Jack is trying to show the boys how much better his group is than Ralph's. He wants everyone to feel like they can eat whenever and whatever they want, he wants to show them how much more fun his group is. However, Jack comes across agressive and forceful. I think Jack is so overwhelmed by his fight with Ralph for dominance that he can't sincerely ask the boys to enjoy their food. Aside from his fight with Ralph, Jack is also being drowned by everything else, his homesickness, his fear of the beast, simon's death. Jack can't show these emotions, because he'll come across weak, so this is his way of letting them out by being overly aggressive with his hunters. I think that this type of behavior can be found almost anywhere, in our world today most people can show their true emotions because they would be considered freaks. I think that the boys are battling with showing their true emotions or the small shred of social etiquette they remember from their past lives.
I like how you said that Jack is being drowned by everything. I see exactly what you mean, because he was so quick to take leadership, and he was put down immidiately. Once he regained his hold over the children, you could see that he was going to use all his power up quickly. I think now he feels beat because he let all this blinded rage and frustration out at once.
Delete1. Is Simon's body being swept in to ocean trying to symbolize that he is finally free and saved from the island?
ReplyDelete2. What will piggy and Ralph make of this tragic event?
3. Do the boys even realize what they had done to Simon?
"'I gave you food,' Jack said, ' and my hunters will protect you from the beast. Who will join my tribe?'" (150)
This quote was interesting to me because I felt that Jack kind of put the other boys in a trap and set them up so that they would change over and come join his group. Jack set it up like a you owe me type of thing because he fed them meat, which they haven't had for a while, but it really wasn't a exchange because Piggy and Ralph won't join them. I think that both sides of the groups need to realize that they need each other to survive, everyone counts no matter what they contribute to the group.
I agree, I think that Jack is much smarter than the others give him credit for. He understood that the only way to gain power was by deceiving the others into believing that he can offer them something he cannot. He claims he can offer them every thing they need, primarily safety from the beast, when he acts like the beast himself. To this point the only thing to actually harm the group has been Jack, while the rest may be an idea, Jack is very real. I also agree that they need each other, although they may be better off working on separate because even though Jack's leadership intrigues the others their ability to communicate on the same grounds seems unlikely and will harm the group.
DeleteI agree with how Jack put these liluns into a trap and he is very clever to say "I gave you food", it's like they really do owe him for all he's done to feed them. I think that everyone is starting to see Jack as the higher power, because Ralph isn't doing much and Jack is the one feeding these liluns. The liluns see this as a way of great leadership and thats why they probably went with Jack. Jack seemed to atleast have a plan compared to Ralph.
DeleteI agree with you because it seems as if he's threatening them to join his group but at the same time he's saying that his group could provide food and protection whereas Ralph's group can't. I also agree with you that Jack Says that because he feels that the boys owe it to him by joining the group. He provided them with something they wanted and he wants them to provide him with what he wants which is to be Chief.
DeleteWhat does the fact that this chapter is called "A View To Death" signify? What view do the other children have of Simon's death? This moment should have been traumatic but instead it seems to accepted as necessary, why?
ReplyDeleteWhat is the significance of the dance to stop the rain? Is the only purpose to stop the rain or does it have a correlation to the beast and the death of Simon? Does the dance change any of the children's thoughts or mindset?
Why do Piggy and Ralph go to the party even though they know the true purpose of it? They know they should not go and due to this they attempt to trick themselves into believing it is for the safety of others, this theme has been evident in the story before this moment as well, why is this theme reused?
"Piggy and Ralph, under the threat of the sky, found themselves eager to take a place in this demented but party secure society. They were glad to touch the brown backs of the fence that hemmed in the terror and made it governable." (152) This quote stood out to me because it shows the power that Jack possess but also the childlike aspects of Piggy and Ralph. Throughout the book Piggy and Ralph have done everything in their capability to maintain an adult like persona. Although at this point their fear and insecurity finally forces them to succumb to the idea that the feeling of security is necessary to live a sane life on this island. Everybody on the island has dramatically changed from the day they dropped in, this is due to many things but chief among them is their fear of the unknown, of the beast. The influence that Jack has on them to not only be afraid of the beast but to protect themselves from it cannot be underestimated and therefore his leadership seems like a safe thing for everyone. Golding uses the words "terror" and "governable" and "demented" and "secure" to display the dramatic contrast that Jack's tribe represents. They not only represent safety but they represent danger. This is something that Piggy and Jack yearn for because they want the feeling of security as well, something that Jack can provide. In many ways it seems that the others are willing to sacrifice their own safety for their safety. While this may not make sense it is the idea that with the utmost protection that Jack brings to them, their will always be a slight aspect of danger due to his savage like attitude. It is truly odd because the one thing the children want most is the very thing they are giving up by going with Jack.
Why was Simon the "chosen one" to the talking head?
ReplyDeleteIs Ralph going to lose his leadership role and is Jack going to gain it?
Why was Simon the one to be killed?
"There were no words, and no movements but the tearing of teeth and claws" (pg 153)
This quote really stood out to me and it defined that everyone on this island has gone crazy, and they are completely savage. Why would a human being kill another human being? Well, to answer my own question, I think that during this moment we could not define those who killed Simon as a human being but an animal(predator). They treated Simon like he was the pigs they hunted for and they have gone insane. Golding uses this description of an animal. An animal wouldn't speak therefore it has no words, and just by how they were killing him, the use of "teeth" and "claws" described how savage they are. This whole moment really disgusted me to how they can treat another human being.
I agree on how this moment defined that the group of boys lost their sanity in this horrendous act. But, if the whole reason behind killing the beast is to get the satisfaction of being the dominant figure why did they killed Simon and not Piggy? Piggy in the whole duration of the book has been the weakest link and only been a "burden" to the boy’s. Because of his unnecessary thoughts on Jack's tribe or his inability to physically to help out the boys in the island. My big question what did Simon do to deserve to get his life taken away? He only wanted to restore the bit of civilization that was lost in the island.
Delete1) Why does Golding writes a description on how the bodies are left after their deaths? (Man on parachute dropping on the island and Simon washing out to sea) Is this significant?
ReplyDelete2) Why does the Lord of the Flies only “talks” to Simon and not the rest of the boys? And, was it destined that Simon would be killed because the Lord of the Flies only talked to him?
3) Why did Piggy participated in the death of Simon if he often is viewed as the voice of rationalism between the boys and being the character that is sensitive to other people’s thoughts?
“There were no words, and no movements but the tearing of teeth and claws. Then the clouds opened and let down the rain like a waterfall.”(153) This quote stood out to me because I think the death of Simon In this chapter will impact the whole book and the remaining chapters. Simon’s death is described as not killing a human but, an animal , with the chants of “Kill the beast! Cut his throat!” And, the way that Golding writes as a silent painful death just makes me think of how the boys are capable to cause torture to a boy and take beyond further of an reenactment, and not knowing when to stop. Especially to a character that is portrayed as the figure of reason and tranquility .Also, I think the way that Simon died is symbolic because it was followed by a heavy rain storm. Which could mean the destruction of a society or a type of burden that is going to be carried in the boy’s shoulders. Even it could also mean a cleansing for the boy’s so they could regain the emotions of remorse and finally come together and find a solution.
1) Will the killing of Simon effect whether the boys choose Ralph's group or Jack's group?
ReplyDelete2) Now that Simon is gone the boys will never find out what he knew. What will this do for the boys who are still alive in terms of hunting the beast?
3) Why are people joining Jack's group over Ralphs when they selected Ralph to lead? What is appealing about Jack's group?
"Kill the beast! Cut his throat! Spill his blood!" This quote is really significant in my opinion. It shows just how savage the boys have become. I think it is really interesting that the boys are completely overtaken by the desire to kill Simon and they don't even realize who they are hurting. I think this section is even more significant because Ralph and Piggy, who were thought to be the most sensible, are also joining in on the killing. Golding, in the previous chapter, said they were playing a game and this is really important. The boys think they are playing a game when in reality they are killing a boy. Simon was the only boy who really was sensible and he was the most independent kid. This is another reason that his killing was significant.
To answer one of your questions, I think that the appeal of Jack's group is very basic--it is the appeal of power. The boys in Jack's group can hunt, and kill, and wear paint on their face and feel like a new person. They can become detached from their previous lives and be absorbed in the apparent pleasure that comes from using power on others--killing pigs, and now, even other people. Because they can feel like they are no longer citizens of the old world in Jack's group, they are able to enjoy the killings and huntings which take place on the island--making them feel powerul and strong as well.
Delete1) Will the boys, at any point, feel any remorse or guilt for killing Simon? Did they even realize it was a human while they ere beating him?
ReplyDelete2) Why does Ralph think that the conch will hold any power, especially when Jack is the one with the support of the people now?
3) What made Piggy stand up to Ralph for the first time? (page 207)
"The parachute took the figure forward, furrowing the lagoon, and bumped it over the reef and out to sea." page 215
I think it is safe for us to say now that the beast William Golding is talking about is the "beast" within humans, that is, their nature which allows them to be violent, reckless, and merciliess. However, having lived in the adult world until their arrival on the island, the boys have likely been unaware of this beast within them. The physical manifestation of the "beast", being the dead fighter pilot, was only there to serve one purpose: it allowed the boys to think about the beast as something external, something that was out and about in the jungle, that could be hunted and killed. Now, the parachutist drifts away, and Golding mentions this just as Simon is killed. I think this is a message that now, the boys are able to recognize the beast inside of them. They have seen that their actions are the ones that harm others, and not those of a "beast" who never existed at all. Because this is so, the downed fighter pilot is allowed to leave the island. Golding is essentially communicating that although there is a beast within all humans, it is rarely apparent. Only at a certain point, when someone is killed for example, like Simon, are people able to realize how the beast is really themselves.
-Does Golding's subtle introduction to Simon's death signify that it happened as a given?
ReplyDelete-When Roger ceases to be a pig, why are all the hunter's bored? Is this all they live for?
-Is the rain a symbol of everything falling apart with Simon's death?
"Roger ceased to be a pig and became a hunter, so that the center of the ring yawned emptily." (152)
I think this line is significant because it shows how most of the childrens' lives have become centered around the idea of the hunt. The "empty yawn" of the circle shows they don't have much order or purpose without hunting, and it shows how impractical their choices have been, but then they're distracted again by Simon. This event shows how their minds are so focused on hunting and violence that they can't zone in on any other qualities or themes, and are driven so mad that they are able to kill what they once called friend. They're blinded by this rage and frustration, and I can't really tell if they realize that they're being useless, but I think that subconsciously this is causing some of their aggravation.
Very good Jesse! but i do not think that they are being useless, they were at first throwing a party, which can fall under the category of a useless action but them hunting is what Jack believes keeps them alive. But i somewhat believe this use the hunting thing as an excuse and they become blinded by rage and frustration like you said and this will end of being of no use. So i do agree with you this was a useless act!
DeleteWhy is Ralph trying to push himself into Jack’s tribe and take over? Does he think that would benefit himself? Why would Jack not run away this time?
ReplyDeleteDoes Jack realize his actions? He thinks of only himself and no one else, is he trying to help others? Or is he just completely caught up in power?
When Simon said that he thought everyone was the beast, did he genuinely mean it, or was he just talking to be heard? Could a connection to this be a reason for his death, was there some higher power involved?
“Toward midnight the rain ceased and the clouds drifted away, so that the sky was scattered once more with the incredible lamps of stars” (153).
I think that this quote is significant because this happened once the body was swept away. The island was once peaceful again. I think that the rain had something to do with the fact that Simon was dead on the island, and the burden that the body left for the boys. Once he was swept out to sea, they got rid of him and were able to move on. I think that weather in this book plays a large role, because Ralph kept referring to the storm that happened when they had just arrived, and that was the only time it rained. When it rained the first time, the boys were all scared, worried and sad because they didn’t know where they were, what to do etc. I think that somehow the rain symbolizes the unknown because the boys in the beginning didn’t know what to do, and then again they didn’t know what to do with the beast or with Simon, but once they started getting things into order, things began to feel normal.
Questions:
ReplyDelete1.) Will Ralph and Piggy eventually end up joining Jack’s tribe?
2.) Why does Golding name this chapter "A view to a death?"
3.) What is the significance of Simon's death? How will it impact the boys late on?
Response:
"The sticks fell and the mouth of the new circle crunched and screamed. The beast was on his knees in the center, its arms folded over his face. It was crying out against the abominable noise something about a body on the hill" (152).
Today's reading was quite interesting and and i found this quote significant. This quote explains when Jack and his followers along with Ralph and Piggy were chanting and screaming. They were screaming for a new pig to come in the middle and when Simon came stumbling down in the middle, they automatically closed the circle and started screaming. Once they got there pig in the middle they did what they did to the actual mother pig and started screaming and spearing Simon. This shows how Jack's brutality rubbed off on everyone. One his followers do what he does and also Ralph and Piggy joined but they were going to do it and stay aware of what there doing, but they end up getting carried away and doing what Jack does and they kill the pig. This shows how Jack is kind of taking over and becoming the new leader and after this stunt Ralph and Piggy should join Jack because as of right now, they are no different from Jack. Jack is going to be the leader.
This was an interesting chapter!
What caused Simon to be so physically impaired as he was coming down the mountain?
ReplyDeleteWhy does Jack give Piggy and Ralph meat, immediately before declaring his leadership?
Do any of the boys, including Ralph and Piggy realize that the 'beast' that was killed is actually Simon?
When Jack's tribe of boys starts dancing, and pretending to hunt and be hunted "Piggy and Ralph, under the threat of the sky, found themselves eager to take a place in this demented but partly secure society. They were glad to touch the brown backs of the fence that hemmed the terror and made it governable" (152). I think this quote shows very accurately the way people feel when a group is doing something. Piggy and Ralph, although they do not necessarily want to be dancing and hunting each other feel safety in numbers and therefore are drawn into this dance, away from the danger of the storm. They even recognize that it is 'demented' but are drawn in by the 'secure society'. This is exactly what people mean by peer pressure. For the longest time I thought that meant your peers actually telling you to do something, but I have recently realized that peer pressure is passive rather than aggressive. It is referring to the draw of a group, as depicted by William Golding. The second part of this quote I find kind of confusing. I think what it is trying to say is that the fact that they could touch the fence that controls them makes Ralph and Piggy feel in control.