1) Ask (3) questions from the chapter that you'd really like answered.
2) Write a response, choosing a line and explaining it's significance to you. Please remember: no plot re-cap! Share your analysis, make connections to the world, ask questions, discuss imagery, and deepen your thinking.
3) Don't forget to respond to someone else's post!
3) Don't forget to respond to someone else's post!
1) Why doesn't anyone ever question Jack about how he knows so much about the beast?
ReplyDelete2) Does the ability to make fire symbolize power?
3) Why does Jack still want the others to believe that the beast still exists?
“We'd better keep on the right side of him, anyhow. You can't tell what he might do.” Jack knows that the beast scares the boys, and he uses that to his advantage. He makes them fear the beast even more so he can insure that he will protect him. He is a dictator, using his confident words to play on the fears of the tribe, and luckily for him, on of the boys’ main fears is Jack. The boys follow Jack, in fear of receiving the same treatment as Simon, or Wilfred. Jack uses fear as political manipulation, which is an underlying theme in the book. Golding is suggesting that people are driven by fear, and who ever can protect them the best, or at least claim they can protect them the best will ultimately win their trust and approval.
I completely agree. You see this come into play also on page 159 as Robert is forced to challenge Ralph, even though he knows who he is. Jack wants to make every person seem like a beast so that no one trusts anyone but him, putting him in a place of power. Instead of being productive he would rather have power. Do you believe Golding is saying this about all humans, or only a certain type?
DeleteLily Cook
ReplyDeleteAleeza-I completely agree with your analysis of this part of the chapter. I do think that Jack uses the fear the boys have to his advantage, and he does claim that he can protect the boys from the beast, in turn winning their trust. I think this leadership tactic is unfair, but on the other hand, leaders have to be firm in their beliefs, so I think that is why Jack has more followers than a more unsure leader, like Ralph.
1) Why does Roger question the chief when he has "the illumination"?
ReplyDelete2)Piggy blames not being able to see the dance on his one glass, is this blaming the boys for his ignoring the truth?
3)Is Jack's government truly based on fear?
As Ralph and Piggy start to rely on each other they look to each other for reassurance about the new life that has become of the boys. The line that stood out to me was about this as Ralph asks "Didn't you see, Piggy?" "Not all that well. I only got one eye now. You ought to know that, Ralph." (157). Piggy's one eye was taken away from him as the boys attacked him much like Simon. I believe this is significant because he blames ignoring the truth on being hurt of bullied by the other boys. As he states "I only got one eye now" it gives you the impression that he is half blind, and the clear view he had on the world and the island in the beginning in the story is now slowly fading to the point that he only has half his mind, whereas the other boys, who have turned into the savages have none.
Eve, I like the idea you suggested of Piggy having half of his mind, while all of the other boys have none of theirs. It kind of seems like a glass half empty-half full situation; on one hand, he broke one lens so he lost half his mind. On the other hand, he still has the other lens so unlike most of the other boys, he still has half his mind. When his glasses get stolen by Jack's tribe at the end of the chapter, that signifies the end of all common sense of the island. They took the ability to create fire, but they lost the ability to think rationally-maybe even the ability to think all together. One might even look at this book as the de-evolution of man. Instead of going from savages to civilized, they started out civilized, and the second they were removed from civilization, there was nothing stopping them from becoming savages.
DeleteLily Cook
ReplyDelete1.) Is Jack secretly as scared of the beast as all the others?
2.) Why would Jack tell the boys that Simon really was the beast?
3.) Why can't Piggy accept the guilt of Simon's murder?
The part that stood out to me was when Piggy was unresponsive to Ralph's questions, and he seemed to be shutting down in denial of the killing of Simon. When Ralph says, "'That was murder."' and Piggy responds with "'You stop it!"'. Piggy's response was interesting, because Ralph is a leader who speaks the truth, unlike Jack, and Piggy can't handle it. By saying "You stop it!", Piggy is making it as if Ralph is doing something to Piggy personally, as opposed to just telling him the truth. Without a doubt, Ralph and Jack are very different types of leaders, but when you think about it, despite Jack's bad morals, he really is the more effective leader, and I find it significant that Ralph is kinder and more truthful, but less effective.
I agree with you. I think that this says something about both boys leadership skills, but I believe that in the end, Ralph will come out on top. I think that because of his kindness he will make better choices for himself. The group will defiantly be brought down by both the boys though.
DeleteI agree, and I also think that Piggy is acting like this is because he doesn't want to accept the truth. He doesn't want to think of how all the others are savages because he can't handle thinking like that. Also it is probabally scary enough being stranded on and Island like this with only kids and now there are complete savages, this who just add to how terrible of a situation they are in.
Delete-Marcello Brattesani
- Why does Jack not choose to recognize that they killed Simon?
ReplyDelete- Will the four boys be able to survive on there own?
- Is Simon's murder the downfall for Ralph?
The line that stood out to me was when Piggy and Ralph were talking about Simon's murder and Ralph says, "'I'm frightened. Of us.'"(157). This line stuck with me because this seems like the place where Ralph is realizing what Simon said before about the boys. The idea that the boys were the ones to be feared was proven in the last chapter and I think Ralph is now realizing what monsters they have all become. I think this makes him uncomfortable and that is why he says he's "frightened". And that this will lead to the downward spiral of Ralph. I am guessing that because of this, Ralph will take irrational actions that will effect all the boys.
I agree with you Lila, that quote is shocking and makes us question our (or made me question my) moral values. I think that the monsters symbolize all of their fears in a way that will not be ridiculed by the other boys.
DeleteI agree with you Lila, and I find it very interesting how before they were frightened about the beast, the island, and now they are frightened about themselves. Also, I would have expected the boys to freak about Simon's death more, but they didn't, so they are already leading to a downward spiral. It is also interesting how some are falling faster than others, example, Ralph.
Delete1. Will Ralph's tribe be able to survive on their own?
ReplyDelete2. Is jack scared of the beast or does he praise it?
3. Is golding trying to show that there is a very small difference between praising something and hating it?
I find it interesting how Jack’s tribe thinks that Simon was actually the beast, and that the beast can take many forms. They are not entirely wrong since the beast is in each one of us. I found this interesting because like so many other cultures they are starting to make up myths and symbols. Just like Jack’s tribe is making up the beast, hundreds of centuries before others were making up the devil. Just like Ralph prides the conch shell, other idealized god. “Roger, sitting on the very edge of the cliff, looked somberly back at the island as he worked with his fingers at a loose tooth” (pg. 159). This line stood out to me because it reminds you how young these boys are. Roger, who is still loosing his baby teeth, committed a murder the night before and seems untouched by it. Which one’s worse the murder, or not feeling remorse?
I found that interesting as well about Jack's tribe. And I feel that another question is which tribe will end up surviving longer. Jack is really trying to scare everyone about the whole beast dilemma and I am starting to think that Jack is just the beast since he becomes more and more, the symbol of savagery in the book.
DeleteElla-- good points! I have been thinking a lot, too about the first half of your post, about how their community, no matter how divided is starting to resemble culture. In a way I think this shows progression. I feel like this whole time in the story we have been focussing on how the community is falling apart, but the fact that they have universal things such as the conch and the beast is showing unity. I think that's very interesting to think about. Good point!
Delete1. Is Jack abusing his power as a new leader?
ReplyDelete2. Do you think Ralph and Piggy's POV of joining Jack's tribe will now change, since they killed Simon?
3. Will Ralph's group be able to stand on their own, or will they need to merge with Jack's group?
"The chief led then, trotting steadily, exulting in his achievement. He was chief now in truth; and he made stabbing motions with his spear. From his left hand dangled Piggy's broken glasses." (168) What caught my attention about this quote, is how it starts off with "the chief." Throughout this chapter Jack is constantly referred to as "chief." Jack has taken his position of being leader more as being a dictator. In my mind, I pictured a powerful dictator walking way in front of his followers, with his chin up and a huge grin on his face; while carrying a spear like he was about to stab someone and holding Piggy's delicate glasses in his other hand as if it were a medal. At this point in the book, I'm definitely scared of Jack! He tortured Wilfred, stole Ralph's groups wood and tried to convince his own group that Ralph's is dangerous and untrustworthy. I don't know if Jack is just acting his way, because he is actually the one afraid of the beast but doesn't want to show it to his group, or whether he just wants to take advantage of his role as being the leader. Either way, I don't think it is fair to do to his group. At the beginning many of the boys joined his group because they knew he could get things done, while being fun with everyone. But now, he is beating his own group members and making them believe Ralph's group is evil. That doesn't sound like fun anymore. I know, that they have tasks to get done and that it can't all just be fun and games, but Jack used to be the one who would had fun, now he is the one setting strict rules and mistreating his group members. Would you believe Jack? Would you stay on his side, or go back to Ralph's group? Is Jack being fair or unfair to his boys?
I agree with you Emma that Jack does seem that he is becoming something to fear.Like you stated, is it his own fear taking over him,or is the power of being chief making him act this way?I questioned that as well. Because Jack is acting more savage, it is becoming more difficult to predict what he is going to do next,and therefore it becomes harder to believe him. Sadly it seems that neither group is doing well without the other,so it is hard to say which side to go to.
DeleteI agree with your analysis of this quote; it's interesting that Golding mentions the spear, which can signify violence/savagery, and then he mentions the eye-wear in Jack's hand, which are very delicate. I think that Jack is being unfair to his boys and is acting as if he isn't afraid of the beast because he wants to remain chief of the group. I agree with Diana that both groups at the moment are not doing well, but it seems that Ralph's group is going to improve since they still are focused on being rescued.
Delete1. Why do they not treat Simon's death, especially Jack with some significance/respect?
ReplyDelete2. Will Simon's death lead to a better chance of getting surviving or dying?
3. How will the power be throughly distributed through Piggy, Jack and Ralph? Especially now that Piggy is usually standing up for himself and talking back.
On 162, "'If only we could make a radio!' 'Or a plane-' '-or a boat.'" These quotes made me picture how sad and worthless they must feel, stranded, on a deserted island. Everything is nearly falling apart for them, and Jack, for his part, has become an expert in using the boys’ fear of the beast to enhance his own power. He claims that Simon really was the beast, implying that the boys have a better grasp of the truth in their frenzied bloodlust than in their calmer moments of reflection. This conclusion is not surprising coming from Jack, who seems almost addicted to that state of bloodlust and frenzy. Jack’s ability to convince the other boys that the state of bloodlust is a valid way of interacting with the world erodes their sense of morality even further and enables Jack to manipulate them even more.
I think this is a really great point. The reason Jack is able to gain so much power is that he is able to use the rest of the boys' fear as a weapon and tool. He uses it in a way that makes all of them believe that in following him, they will be safe from what they are afraid of, the beast. I wonder why it is Jack that is capable of manipulating the rest of the boys though. the difference between Ralph and Jack is that Jack gains power through manipulation whereas Ralph gains power because he has a helping hand to offer. I also think each of the two boys' intentions are vastly different: Jack focusing on absolute power for his own sick pleasure, and Ralph just wants what is best for everyone.
Delete1. How will the boys be effected by Simon's death when/if they are saved?
ReplyDelete2. What does Jack's way of coping with guilt say about him?
3. Was he always this way or did the island change him?
Ralph and Piggy's reactions to the groups heinous actions truly reflect the mental damage that comes with such a vicious actions. If the boys ever return to civilization their ethic and moral values will be so twisted that I can imagine the will have trouble functioning "naturally" in society. It's scary to think how quickly the boys found justification for their actions. "It was dark" Piggy says, "we was scared... P'raps he was only pretending-". (Page 157). Piggy's approach to the situation does mirror one that many humans in society daily use. His instinct to not except that humans are flawed and we are extremely capable if not prone to mistakes. This will create great character distinction between all the boys because for the most part they will fall into one of two categories a defensive approach blaming extraneous variables for the out come of the event (Piggy) or become over come with guilt blaming fault on themselves and other members (Ralph). Jack who seems to be a special cases thrives on both of these states of mind, the boys (or at least the young ones) are weekend by guilt and then easily manipulated. The decision thy make speaks to their character and their role in the rest of the book.
Olivia Shlansky
DeleteI agree with you, Kate. It is interesting to wonder how they would react in society after being on the island. Their whole perception of what's right and what's wrong has completely changed. Their morals have shut down and they are on survival mode. The boys do what they can to continue to live...which is not how a normal society works. If they ever do get off the island, it will be very interesting to see how they change back to the "social normal".
1. Jack has been the leader of the new group since chapter nine, so why is Golding referring to him as "the chief" a chapter later?
ReplyDelete2. What does the bus in Ralph's dream represent?
3. How will Ralph's group survive without the fire or will they join Jack for the sake of being rescued?
"Ralph tried indignantly to remember. There was something good about a fire. Something overwhelmingly good" (163).
When Eric questions the importance of keeping the fire going Ralph becomes upset, but can not remember a reasonable explanation; afterwards, Piggy responds that the fire will help them be rescued. I found this line significant because it shows that Ralph can no longer keep his thoughts together as a chief should. It makes me wonder whether or not Ralph still has the original intentions as he did when he first became a leader, or if he is beginning to change and forget his goals because of the circumstances on the island. This line also makes me question whether the fire really was important to Ralph, or if he just used it as an excuse to have power so that the others could view him as a leader. Through this quote, Ralph seems to be forgetting his knowledge about the world and civilization.
I think it is interesting how Ralph loses his train of thought here, and I think it does show a lack of the skills needed to be chief of the boys. However, this is not the first time its happened to Ralph, which I think means that its not the result of some recent change, but more of an example of his characteristics as person. His inability to speak and continue with thoughts at times is a part of who he is, which is interesting for someone who the boys instinctively chose as chief. I do think his intentions are still the same, and that the fire is still important to him, but his slip up here was because of something in him that has been there since the beginning.
Delete1. Does Jack represent evil. Do Ralph and Piggy represent good?
ReplyDelete2. If question Ralph and Piggy do represent good, has it been corrupted by Simon's death?
3. Will Ralph and his small group stand up to Jack's group, or at least try to negotiate? If they did, would it do anything?
A part in this chapter that I found to be excessively disturbing was when Jack had some of the boys from his tribe tie up Wilfred and have him beaten. "'But the chief didn't say why?' 'I never heard him'" (159). This displays how Jack's initiatives and motives are no longer simply just the will to survive. They have reached intolerable and unprovoked cruelty, cruelty just for the sake of being cruel. This really made me understand that, while on the island, not necessarily all the boys, but Jack and those who have joined him, have not only become exceptionally animalistic, but purely evil. It is no longer that they are just willing to commit evil for their own gain, but it is now that they enjoy and want to commit evil as they get a sort of sick and twisted pleasure from it. Perhaps on the island, not the inner routes of mankind comes out, but rather the inner routes of each individual. Some are evil, and some are not.
I absolutely agree with you. I also believe that when you are around people for a long time you get to witness who they really are. When people are making new friends they don't always want to come off as cruel so they are friendly, but once you are their friend they turn. You then see who they really are and it might not be for the better. I think this is what has happened to Jack. In the beginning chapters, he comes off as the joker and messes around with the others, but as the plot continues you see Jack's inner cruel self come alive.
DeleteI agree, in this chapter you see that Jack has completley transformed. He no longer appears to even care about the boys or even getting rescued, only about power. He even uses the beast to his advantage, manipulating the boys into fearing the beast more and therefor joining him. Jack's change of character shows can the need for power can affect one. I wonder what he is even really acheiving in the end by gaining control over the boys. Is it worth it?
Delete1) Why do Samneric continue to follow and respect Ralph so much, even though they know he was a part of the "dance" that killed Simon?
ReplyDelete2) What could Wilfred have done to deserve being tied up and beaten?
3) Why did Jack decide to steal Piggy's glasses, as opposed to borrowing them?
"'I gave one of 'em what for,' said Ralph, 'I smashed him up all right'... 'I got my knee up,' said Eric with simple pride, 'and i hit him with it in the pills'" (167-168). This dialogue is really interesting to me because it sounds to me like Ralph and Eric could've just been fighting themselves. During the fight sequence on page 167, the fighting is told from the story's usual third person omniscient point of view, allowing the reader to know everything that happens. When comparing what the two characters say to each other after the fight to what happens during it, it seems as though Ralph and Eric were actually fighting each other. This is significant because it can be showing or foreshadowing a further split among Ralph's group, and also because it is making the boys' growing madness and disillusionment much more evident. Finally, its also yet another passage where Golding is talking about human's violent nature; our natural instinct in this situation is to kick, punch, claw, and bite. Who were the boys actually fighting? Did Jack and his 2 companions steal the glasses without ever stepping foot in the shelter?
1)Will Ralph’s group ever become too week to survive on their own and begin depending on Jack’s group?
ReplyDelete2) Why does it seem like Piggy is in denial about Simon’s death?
3) What else besides power does fire symbolize?
Although a lot went on in this chapter, I spent a lot of time focussing on a change in Ralph as a leader and simply a person. The chapter begins with Piggy and Ralph discussing what really happened with Simon, and I immediately picked up on Ralph’s insight on reality, he wasn’t willing to cover anything up in order to seem tough or strong. While Piggy denies they’re responsibility in Simon’s death, Ralph is horrified by what he thinks he did. On page 174 he says, “‘I’m frightened. Of us. I want to go home. O God I want to go home.’” I guess what really struck me about this line was that Ralph didn’t care to represent an adult-like persona anymore... he wasn’t trying to act tough and tell himself that everything was going to be okay... he was really acting very small and afraid. But that’s when I started to think that maybe truly mature people can admit to being afraid sometimes, and can admit that all they want is to go home. Sometimes the weaker are really the people who can’t admit what they are really feeling. It’s possible that Jack, for example, is just as frightened but can’t admit that to himself. To me, I was very impressed by Ralph and his growth as a character.
I noticed the shift in Ralph's character too! I was rather impressed by how he owned up to his actions even though the truth of what he did cut him to the very core. He was honest, but to Piggy I feel as if honesty isn't as important if it ends up destroying you and your production. Piggy is denying what happened the night before because he knows that the more he thinks about it and feels guilty, the harder it will be to move on and do anything productive. It's awful and sad, but it really is best when you think about it. Washing them of the responsibility makes them stronger in the sense that they don't have this tremendous weight on their shoulders and that they now have the power to point the finger at someone else and let them deal with it. Once again, Piggy has the right idea. I can't help but think he would've made an excellent politician...
DeleteOlivia Shlansky
ReplyDelete1. Why does Jack insist that Simon was the beast?
2. Why is Jack so violent? Has he always been that way or has the island turned him into a savage?
3. How is Ralph's group going to survive? Are they going to try and join together with Jack's group or will Jack never allow that to happen?
The part of this chapter that stood out to me was when Piggy wouldn't accept the fact that he took part in the murder of Simon. Piggy knows that he helped kill Simon so it's strange that he would sort of deny it. Piggy could possible have realized that since they didn't actually kill the beast, the beast is still out there. Or Piggy could be concerned about how the island has turned him into another person; a person that would kill another. I also found it interesting that Ralph was very upfront about the fact that they murdered Simon. I feel as if I were in that situation, I would act more like Piggy; denying the fact that I murdered someone.
It's interesting, because up to this point, Piggy always seems to be the more realistic, up front person out of the group, and he is trying to place the blame elsewhere in this situation. I don't think that Piggy is worried about the beast being still alive, because I believe the people who haven't joined Jack's party are the people who don't believe that the beast even exists, which for that reason, Jack's group thinks that they are hostile. That whole group is bounded together by their hatred and fear of the beast, and the fact that Ralph and Piggy don't feel that way poses a threat to them, possibly making them think that they could be associated with the beast.
Delete"I'm frightened.Of us. I want to go home.Oh God I want to go home."(157)This shows that Ralph seems to reach the peak of not wanting to be leader anymore. He does not seem to want to have power anymore,and that sense of control he showed the others at the beginning, seems to have left him. This quote also shows how the boys are a threat to each other,and how their fear might have already taken over the way they think."I'm frightened of us."That might explain why a few boys are acting savage like,the fear of not returning home has taken over.
ReplyDeleteIs there another word we can use beside savage?
Why do the boys dislike Piggy so much?
Do they find Piggy a threat?If so why?
Good point, Diana. Ralph's role as leader has definetily diminished in part to his lack of commitment. I think something has to be said to how proactive Jack has been in trying to obtain the leadership role. That sort of attention and commitment speaks to the boys and it ultimately won Jack a spot as cheif. I wonder if Ralph will be able to regain his winning attidude, or will he shift to just another one of the boys.
DeleteWhy is it that Samneric are the only biguns loyal to Ralph and Piggy? Why are the littluns fatefull?
ReplyDeleteAre the others feeling as guilty about Simon's death as Ralph is?
When did the boys decide that Simon was the beast, and that being said if they killed him, why do they still fear it? Why must they fear it?
What is the significance of the power to make fire being lost to Piggy and Ralph?
It worries me more and more how far Jack has taken this whole chief thing. It has gotten to the point where he has no interest in the well-being of the boys, but is solely doing what he does to maintain his dominance - which is something that it seems has always been a part of him since his beginning on the island. Moreover, he is using fear to control the boys. Fear of physical (and brutal) punishment, fear of exile, and fear of the beast (in all of it's senses). The fact that he is able to use the beast in the sense that it is a living, breathing monster despite the fact that it has become self evident to the boys that the beast is something inside of them - something inside of Simon- is showing how desperate he is to use anything to drive the boys using emotion. The worst part is that it works. It works because they are all scared of themselves, and what will happen if they let themselves take charge. The boys are all still frightened by the death of Simon- they are guilty because they are responsible; their act serves as proof that they are just not ready to handle
themselves- they just aren't capable - and they need someone to lead them. Even if this person that is in charge is unfair and cruel, it still seems better than not knowing what they are doing and then screwing up later on. Jack sees this and takes advantage of it. After hearing the news that the chief had tied up and beaten Wilfred for a reason unknown to the tribe, Roger is "assimilating the possibilities of irresponsible authority." (160). So Jack's crudeness hasn't gone unnoticed but the fact that this realization that Roger had hasn't sparked severe suspicion among the other boys and even a revolt is kind of surprising. I guarantee Jack's little game will come to an explosive end quite soon.
1. When does Jack turn into this tyrant sort of role? Why is he punishing kids for no reason?
ReplyDelete2. Why is it that Sam and Eric, boys who were a part of Jack's choir stick with Ralph?
3. Is anyone still sane?
"We'd better keep on the right side of him, anyhow. You can't tell what he might do." Jack says this directed towards the beast, speaking of how the beast is able to shape shift and will never truly die. It is amazing to me how Simon's death went to absolutely nothing. The least that could have happened was that the boys were restored a feeling of safety because of the death of the beast, but instead they have become so paranoid with the thought of the beast, that they lose trust in everyone around them, including Ralph and Piggy. At this point, it seems to me like the belief in the beast has become like a religion, something that binds the whole society together, and keeps them wondering about the greater being. They have faith in the beast, and believe that it is a supernatural creature, which causes them to act out of fear rather than worship, but still possesses many characteristics of a religion. The unanswered questions that they have are filled with made up answers, and any wrong doing on account of them are replaced with false notions and beliefs, like that Simon was an enemy, not a wrongly killed friend. The religion of the beast is corrupting them, something that happens even off of the island in the real world, whether it was medieval times where the church was controlling and leading feudalism, or today, where there are suicide bombings.
1) If Ralph joins up with Jack's crew, will the boys push for Ralph to become their chief again?
ReplyDelete2) Piggy's biggest contribution was the gift of fire. Now that he no longer has his glasses, will everyone begin to think of him as useless?
3) We know little about everyones' personalities before the island. Even though Jack seems the most violent, he may have just always been this way. Who has the island changed the most? And least?
There were two things that made the group strong when they first started out: the conch and the fire. The conch lost much of its value when Jack took over because it only worked when controlled by Ralph. When he broke off to become leader of a new tribe, Jack, however, still did not have fire. That was the one thing that still gave Ralph's group the advantage. They may have not been stronger in a fight, but they had fire. This was why they made constant raids of Ralph's camp and stealing some fire. Jack eventually got tired of this and decided to steal the source of the fire: Piggy's glasses. After taking them, Golding said, "The chief led them, trotting steadily, exulting in his achievement. He was a chief now in truth; and he made stabbing motions with his spear" (168). This was Jack's final victory; it was all he needed to do to fully take away all of Ralph's power. He knows this too. Jack is confident now, he doesn't think that he can be stopped. He thinks he can even tame the beast. That is his greatest mistake because he has yet to figure out that the beast is inside all of them. His confidence from this victory has only made him and his group more vulnerable to fall further towards becoming fully fledged savages.
1. Will the boys ever got back under Ralph's leadership?
ReplyDelete2. Why is Piggy in denial and claim that his death was an accident?
3. Is the Castle Rock significant? What is it significance of Jack's tribe moving to the mountain on the island?
"It was an accident, that's what it was. An accident. Coming in the dark-he hadn't no business crawling like that out of the dark. He was batty, he asked for it..." (157).
It seems as though the civilization has just all gone down hill, even Ralph's influence and power. in this point of the book, Ralph and Piggy are really the only two left. As Ralph reaches his low point, symbols that appear in the beginning of the book loose their meanings as well. For example, Ralph's conch shell. This shell is what use to keep everything in order, and now its just a simple useless object. As you may see, things are not looking so well. Everyone turns into savagery as they beat up their old leader, at the end of this chapter. I think that this quote wraps up the whole chapter. As Piggy tries to convince himself that Simon's murder was an accident, he demonstrates the separation in this island. Half of the people are realists and half are idealists. Usually, in a stable-like society, realists and idealists are balanced out because there is a big enough society. But, in this case, the society is unbalanced. There are more idealists than realists, then, there is more cruelty than kindness. This society is so unproportionate/unbalanced that everything will never function as one.
I think that you make a good point here. Things have just gone down the drain and there really isn't any hope left for the boys being civilized. I think that they have all gone into "survival mode" and are beginning to think only of themselves. This results in their savageness. It shows in the boys who want to be in power or who have something to prove, like Jack. It also comes out when they feel like they are in danger, which is most likely why they have all been feeling like that. Their idea of the "beast" still exists and they don't feel at ease, so they will go to any extent to make themselves feel safe, like when they killed Simon because they though he was the beast.
Delete1)- Why does Piggy not want to believe that Jack's savages killed Simon on purpose and think it was by accident?
ReplyDelete- Why do the savages in Jack's group not care what he does?
- Will Jack ever return the glasses back to Piggy?
2) "I don't know. He didn't say. He got angry and made us tie Wilfred up. He's been" -he gigled excitedly- "he's been tied for hours, waiting-." The kids are talking about what Jack did and they don't care. None of the kids in Jack's tribe care. None care what Jack does in general, just like when they killed Simon, nobody in Jack's tribe cared most expecially Jack. They are becoming savages so they do not care what is done to the people around them or if people get hurt and the thought about people getting tied up and punished for not listening to Jack makes them laugh.
-Marcello Brattesani
I agree with you to some extent. I think that the boys in Jack's group only care about what happens if it is something directly regarding themselves. In Simon's case they don't act remorseful, because Jack has led them to believe that Simon truly was the beast. Jack is manipulating the boys into believing everything he says by using their fear of the beast against them.
DeleteWhy is Jack holding the truth back from the boys that the the thing they murdered was Simon?
ReplyDeleteWill Ralph join Jack's crew for good?
Why is piggy so in denial over taking part in Simon's death? Will this lead to an emotional breakdown later in the story?
"'And then, the beast might try to come in. You remember how he crawled'...
'But didn't we, didn't we'...
'No! How could we-kill-it.'"
Jack, at this point of the story, has completely become the master of manipulating the boy’s fear of the beast in order for him to gain power over the tribe. But what is even more interesting is that he is now intentionally lying to the boys to keep his position. He is so afraid that he will lose power that he lies to the boys, and consequently puts them all in danger. He’s putting the boys out into the forest (looking for nothing) where they can get hurt, but worst of all he is limiting their chances to get off the island. Then again it can't be seen surprising that the boy who, since the beginning of the book, has been hooked to the idea of power and savagery has taken this route of evil. But as Jack's ideas spread and the boys continue to follow his ways, the less they become connected to civilization, and the more they become inhuman savages. Hopefully Jack realizes his bad ways before someone else gets hurt.
1. Are the boys in Jacks troop truly convinced that Simon was a beast?
ReplyDelete2. Does Jack use the boys fear of the beast to his advantage?
3. What is the signifignce of the boys feelings towards the fire?
I found it interesting in this chapter how different Ralph was. Previously, he'd been a strong and determined leader. Now, he seems to have lost the passion he once had. When asked why the boys fight to maintain the fire, Ralph "tried indignantly to remember. There was something good about the fire" (163). Even Ralph, the leader of the boys, has become weakened by all that has happened. He barely rembers why they work to keep the fire, when he created the idea. This makes me wonder if his mind has been taken over by the island. Earlier in the chapter Golding stated that his knowledge of the world was "fading". Perhaps as his memory of his old life fades, so does Ralph. Slowly he is becoming more like the savages.
good points, Ruby. this seemed interesting to me as well, how Ralph has lost his will to lead. i saw this as him losing people to lead which caused him to give up, forgetting his past values and attempts to enforce them. i agree in that Ralph represents and reflects their past society and as that gets valued less and less so does Ralph.
Delete1. Why can't Piggy express his guilt towards the murder of Simon?
ReplyDelete2. Would Jack's group be considered a monarch considering the fact that the boys I the group trade in their rights for the security from the king and they fear for their life?
3. Why does Jack believe that Simon was the beast?
In this chapter we finally clearly see the division of the groups. In this chapter we clearly see that Jack's group shows dominance, but not order. I feel Jack's group represents a monarchy, in which the king,Jack,
Protects the people and is allowed to do anything he wants to do with them. The fact that Jack has been the most violence throughout this change in the island, because in the beginning we meet him as a dominant leader, but u felt that his power would decrease, but instead he has become more powerful. Jack also abuses his power in doing so, causes trouble not only in the group, but throughout the island. In his group he begins to punish people for no reason and began to beat up a member of his group, Wilfred: "He's going to beat Wilfred.' 'What for?' Robert shook his head doubtfully. 'I don't know. He didn't say. He got angry and made us tie up Wilfred....'But didn't the chief say why?'" (159). I find it significant not that he beats Wilfred for no apparent reason,but that the boys call Jack "chief". The boys already give their new leader a title, and don't question his authority. We find Jack using his power for the best of himself and not of his group which is much like a king. Is the fact that Jack abuses his power to hide his fear of what is to happen?
DeleteWhy didn't Samneric join Jack's group?
ReplyDeleteWhy does Piggy refuse to acknowledge that he was a part of Simon's death?
Now that Jack has stolen Piggy's glasses, will Ralph's group of boys be able to find another way to make fire?
"'Why would they try to sneak in, Chief?'
The chief was vague but earnest.
'They will. They'll try to spoil things we do. So the watchers at the gate must be careful. And then-'
'And then, the beast might try to come in. You remember how he crawled...'"(160).
I found it interesting how Golding wrote Jack when he addressed his group. It's clear how manipulative Jack is as a leader, in order to get the boys to obey his orders and stop questioning him, he instills fear in them by talking about the beast. Due to how big the size of Jack's group is, and how few people there are in Ralph's group, there is no way that Ralph would be able to pull off any type of stunt to overthrow Jack. Also now that Jack is leader, we can Golding writing him in his original, serious personality. It's like he was made for the leadership role.
I agree Mykayla that Jack had become an overpowering character and is easily given what he wants. And the fact that there is not a dominant power in Ralph's group is significant representing what you stated is true Jack was made to be a leader. But I feel Jack is not all forth coming on what he feels unlike Ralph who isn't afraid if his group turning on him. Does this foreshadow the overturn of Jack' s power? Sidebar next time write a quote that supports your ideas.
DeleteI also agree on how fear has become Jack's main tool in persuading the littluns. It seems as if their society is the exact opposite of what an ideal one would be. Citizens shouldn't have to do things in fear but rather because what they think they're doing is right. It clearly shows how dysfunctional their group has become. Because of this I disagree: Jack actually was not made for the leadership role if the only way he can get people to do things is by instilling fear in them.
Delete1)a) Why does Piggy find it so hard to believe that they killed Simon?
ReplyDeleteb)Will Ralph and the rest of his peers be able to survive on their own now that they have a limited amount of resources?
c)Why/How are the littluns so easily persuaded by Jack?
2)"From his left hand dangled Piggy's broken glasses."(168). This last sentence of the chapter shows just how important Piggy's specs have become on the island. The conch which represented civilization and order was left in favor of Piggy's glasses. The glasses had the ability to make fire, which represented the boys' only hopes of getting rescued. Now, the glasses are in the hands of a more dangerous person, someone with savage like instincts. This could foreshadow even more violent events in the near future. The glasses have now become the most treasured item on the island and it seems as if whoever has it is the one with most power on the island
1. Are there some in Jacks Group that recognize the killing of Simon?
ReplyDelete2. Are people not brave enough to question Jack's rule or do they actually agree with it?
3. Is it significant that jack now has the ability to make fire?
i chose to look at the line "From his left hand dangled PIggy's glasses". Golding made this scene come about in a very dramatic way. I saw this as a very significant moment where both sides seem very divided. Jack could now make his own fire and to me it seemed like jack now had everything and needed nothing from Ralph. This is interest because Jack having everything us that there is no need for the values and morals of Ralph. Morality seems insignificant in Jack's society and left behind. Jack has taken all he needed and has moved on creating a new society.
I agree in saying Jack does not need Ralph anymore as a base, or even a partner to help him. But even though Jack created his own society based off of animalistic behaviour and chanting, do you really think this society will survive? I think for them to be successful Jack and his followers will need values and morals to build shelter and get rescued. Will Jack ever turn back to Ralph for help or is does he believe he can run the group all by himself?
Delete1) What is the significance of the title being that it is the two items that have reflected symbolism throughout the story?
ReplyDelete2) Why does Piggy keep telling himself and Ralph that Simon's murder was an accident?
3)What does it mean to be inside or outside the circle? Why does it matter?
During this chapter, the quote that stood out to me was said by Ralph, "I'm frightened. Of us. I want to go home. Oh God, I want to go home." (157). First, I think Golding uses the repition of "I want to go home" to signify the desperate tone the story has come to. The boys on the island are now struggling to live, let alone get along. What really stands out to me is that Ralph, once the leader of the pack, is left with almost no one at his side except for a few others like Piggy. It is scary to think that the one who was so lively and ready is now frightened of his fellow island members. This reveals what the society has finally come to: life or death. Ralph has lost all sense of what it means to be a leader if he is even scared to approach the savages, and instead Piggy is trying to give hope to the four outsiders saying they could live on their own. Does this mean Piggy and Ralph are switching roles?
I believe that Piggy does not wan't to add guilt to the list of emotions he feels at Simon's death. By denying their guilt he avoids the pain of knowing it was their fault. I also think that piggy wants to keep the moral of the group up. Ralph is drowning in guilt and sadness, Piggy has to step in and take a stronger leadership role. Without Piggy the group would become disheartened by Ralph's lack of leadership and responsibility. Everyone deals with loss in their own way: some people deny and some cry and some blame themselves.
Delete-Maud Rush
What is the connection between Piggy's vision and his friendship with Ralph?
ReplyDeleteWhy has Ralph lost his confidence?
How and why has the boys respect for Ralph changed since the start of the book?
"'Call an assembly?' Ralph laughed sharply as he said the word and Piggy frowned. 'You’re still chief.' Ralph laughed again. 'You are. Over us." (pg 223)
I chose this quote because I believe it demonstrates Ralph's loss of confidence and determination. Since the start of the novel he has been a powerful and thoughtful leader, but now he has lost faith in himself. Piggy here is attempting to boost Ralph up after the death of Simon. Simon was important to Ralph and he is dealing with the loss, guilt , and sadness in an extremely odd way. He keeps laughing off their situation. He feels as though this fight with Jack's group is useless. Why fight over something he doesn't believe is worth fighting for anymore, power. Because Ralph is accepting blame for Simon'd death he no longer has the strength to act as he did before. This fight now seems petty in lieu of the recent events.
-Maud Rush
Why do the boys beat up Wilfred?
ReplyDeleteWhy do the boys steal Piggy's glasses?
Why do the boys still believe that the beast is still alive?
"'He's going to beat Wilfred.''What for?' Robert shook his head doubtfully. 'I don't know. He's been'- he giggled excitedly-'he's been tied up for hours, waiting-" (159)
This quote frightens me and upsets me as well. I do not understand why Jack would want to beat up Wilfred. No one knows the reason. Jack's savage side is beginning to show through. Jack's anger is becoming more and more prominent and he is taking it out on those weaker than him. I think that this is a way for him to show his power and prove that he is better than the other boys. Either way, I think that Jack's temper will eventually get out of hand and result in tragedy for him and/or the other boys.
What does Jack tying up WIlfred and beating him signify after the murder of Simon?
ReplyDeleteWhy does Jack keep trying to steal he conch? Is he that caught up on trying to "end" civilization?
Why are Sam and Eric the only two biguns to stay with Ralph and Piggy?
"He ceased to work at his tooth and sat still, assimilating the possibilities of irresponsible authority" (160). This is very interesting because this shows another moment of coming of age. When we are children we learn from what people tell us. Our parents are the authority figure we have in our lives. This is a moment of rebellious thinking for Roger. He is realizing that the higher authority may not be what's best for everyone. It shows that the boys have hope. I see that the boys still have hope tat theyre not complete savages, they still have at least some morals.