1) Write a response, choosing a line and explaining it's significance to you. Please remember: no plot re-cap! Share your analysis, make connections to the world, ask questions, discuss imagery, and deepen your thinking. 2) Don't forget to respond to someone else's post!
This chapter was extremely and after reading I have little hope left in humanity. I never would have guessed that Piggy would die, he seemed from the beginning necessary to the story. His death is bittersweet right before he dies he is finally able to stand up for himself; the island has evolved him from the shy awkward to boy who confronts his fears and insecurities. The only problem is that progress died in vain because Piggy will not go home a changer boy he won't go home at all. "The conch exploded into a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist" (page 181). There is more symbolism for what has happened to the boys in this paragraph then in the entire book. The death of the conch a symbol of the group being together and working together almost exactly in synch with the death of Piggy is so disheartening. I think that it represents the true essence of good vs. evil.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with you and I think it is pretty sad how Piggy died. I actually did not notice that the conch broke around the same time of Piggy's death until you pointed it out. That is a good comparison, but I wonder what does this signify and if Golding structured it like this for a reason.
DeleteI also agree and Lupe I think its a symbol or absolute chaos now that these two figures of order are gone with Ralph being the only one left against Jacks hunters. The conch was also a symbol for hope since Ralph first blew it and summoned all of the boys on the island. Without it there's really nothing left for them
DeleteI also felt this chapter really showed how the boys have completely become savage. The smashing of the conch, especially, seemed to be symbolic almost. Before, the conch was what held the boys together at times, no matter what the boys would always respond to it. After it was smashed, it seemed that the cross over to the more animialistic side became more defenite.
DeleteGood point, Kate. I also agree that the killing of both Piggy and the conch shell was not a coincidence. Both were connections back to civilization and order that the boys had become so distant from. With only Ralph remaining there is little time before the whole island becomes enveloped in absolute chaos.
Delete"The rock struck Piggy a glancing blow from chin to knee; the conch exploded into a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist." (181)
ReplyDeleteI found this chapter to be really descriptive on events that occurred. With the conch now disintegrated, the voice of reason is now completely gone. The conch was a way of symbolizing unity and a society and now without that the boys are complete savages. The fact that Golding puts “exploded into a thousand white fragments” signifies that it didn’t just break into a piece or two, but rather so many that it’s completely broken and couldn’t be fixed. This is exactly what has happened to the boys. They can’t come back together again and rebuild their problems because it just doesn’t end well for any of them. Piggy was closely tied with the conch. Ralph had power when he blew it, which gave Piggy a sense of protection from the others boys. But now that the conch is completely broken, Ralph lost his only sense of power and Piggy lost his life. The conch was also the very first thing Piggy and Ralph encountered on the island when they first met each other. It symbolized rules, power and even protection. But throughout the book, whenever Piggy held the conch it didn't give him any power because no one would listen to him. And when he finally holds it in this chapter, it could mean either that not even the conch could restore order again and that the boys are just complete savages or that all along Piggy was the wrong person to be holding it and so it finally caught up to him which meant his death. How will this affect Ralph in the last chapter? Did you see this coming for Piggy? If so, Why?
yeah it symbolized unity. Even when Piggy held it up in the group of savages they were silenced and listened to what he had to say. It also symbolized what was right and laws. It also symbolized the moral code and what is right and wrong. Now that the destroyed it, it symbolizes the full growth into a dystopia on the Island.
ReplyDelete-Marcello Brattesani
The main lines that stood out to me in chapter eleven were, “Roger took up a small stone and flung it between the twins, aiming to miss...Some source of power began to pulse in Roger’s body” (175). This quote is significant because it shows that during this moment Roger still believed in civilization even though he was in Jack’s group. What caused Roger to turn savage at the end of this chapter? Was it the rush of power that he felt that made him want to change? This quote refers back to when Roger threw rocks at a littleun at the beginning of this book, but purposely missed because he was afraid of the consequences. At the end of this chapter, it is clear that Roger enjoys seeing others in fear and pain; he takes full advantage of the unfair situation because he knows he won’t get in trouble. I think that Golding makes Roger purposefully kill Piggy, who is holding the conch, instead of Ralph to demonstrate the end of civilization on the island. I wonder if Roger has always been violent (including back at home), or if being stranded on the island has made him this way.
ReplyDeleteLily Cook
DeleteThe quotes you chose are definately important. I think that Roger's hunger for power was overruled any humanity that was left in him in this chapter. This is very similar to Jack's way of leadership, and the boys have all become used to this type of violence more and more. I agree that Golding used these characteristics of Rodger's to kill Piggy, and it seems that the love of violence has become a leading theme in the book
I agree with what you stated that there was a glimpse there of being back in the state of thought where civilization is still in these boys. Golding shows this through Roger. I think it was the rush of having power that made Roger do what he did because, he wanted to show he was not weak,and like you said before how Roger threw rocks at the littluns at the beginning he might have already been a little violent before they landed on the island,and having that power made him do something that was horrible. The island I think is just a fire that is leading these boys to be dangerous to each other.
Delete"Then the sea breathed again in a long, slow sigh, the water boiled white and pink over the rock; and when it went, sucking back again, the body of Piggy was gone" (181).
ReplyDeleteThis chapter was very emotional for me, especially because I adored Piggy. It is sad to think that someone so innocent was killed. He was the last person I thought was going to die. I picked this quote because it really stood out to me. Golding uses such specific words that it just made me want to analysis this thoroughly. In the phrase, "Then the sea breathed in a long, low sigh...", Golding uses personification to show that Piggy's death was such a tragic. He makes it seem as though the sea was sad. Then, he says,"...the water boiled white and pink over the rock...". White and pink symbolizes innocence. For example, like when a baby is born, they are usually covered up with a light pink or white blanket. Lastly, he says, "and when it went, sucking back again, the body of Piggy was gone". The sea sucking Piggy in makes me think of losing such a crucial person. It is ironic how the most innocent people end up dying in the sea. Then again, the sea and water symbolizes purity. Piggy died the person he was, he did not change, he stood by his beliefs, and now he is in a better place. This sentence Golding wrote is significant because it makes you think about how true and pure Piggy was to himself/beliefs. It is kind of like a moment of silence for Piggy, while all this fighting is going on.
Lupe, I really liked your analysis of this quote. Piggy always seemed like a gentle and kindhearted person throughout the book so to see him die this way was really shocking to me. But, the fact that Golding uses white and pink; delicate colors and says the sea breathed in a long, low sigh; meaning it was not harsh at all but rather smooth and calm really made me reminded me of Piggy as a person. He was always gentle and calm like how Golding describes the aftermath of Piggy's death.
DeleteJack screamed "See? See? That's what you'll get! I meant that! There isn't a tribe for you anymore! The conch is gone-." Jack's savages killed Piggy and he is rubbing that into Ralph's face, what is wrong with him, and what has the world come to? He doesn't care that an innocent person is dead, all he cares is if he looks powerful infront of his tribe. Piggy believed what happened before to Simon was an accident, and now it happens to Piggy, this was no accident. If it were Jack wouldn't be all excited over the death and shoving it in Ralph's face. I think Golding uses this to show that they have truely become savages and it is a dystopia. The conch represented the enforcement of rules and also a utopia. Jack mentions how it is gone and he sounds pleased, pleased that the last bit of humanity that is tieing Jack's group to humanity is gone. Some people are like this in the world. If we were living in a dystopia some people would be complete savages running around not giving a care about moral code or rules. There would also people who are like Ralph, normal and still have morals. Just like in the book people would be pursuaded into becoming savages, because it "looks fun." Why couldn't Jack realize what he has done and reflect apon it? Why does he want to be a savage and live in a dystopia? Why can't he just live in a utopia?
ReplyDelete-Marcello Brattesani
In this chapter we see Ralph's group taking a stand for themselves and Ralph becoming a dominant leader again. Without the help of Piggy, Ralph would have never had the courage to confront Jack. Also, we see that Jack has a more civilized group, which cause order. The most significant was the fact that Ralph didn't want to classify his "tribe" as savages, unlike Jack who didn't mind it and felt that was their appropiate for them. The fact that Ralph wants to confront Jack appropiately and well dress represnts that he still remebers his ways from back home he says: "'We'll be like we were. We'll wash-' Sam gulfed down a moutful and protested. 'But we bathe everyday!'" (172). What I found significant is that Ralph still cares how he presents himself and that he doesn't become "a beast" or savage, but the fact that the other boys really don't care anymore, makes Ralph a strong leader. He is the glue that is allowing this tribe to stand, although he questions his own authority. Is Ralph's need to stay put to together in this chapter, foreshadow the boys of his group getting off the island? Would Ralph's group be considered a democracy, because he listens to the people and does what is best for them? And last, because Ralph begins to doubt himself as a leader, will we find a hift in power from Ralph to Piggy?
ReplyDeleteI think it's interesting what you said about Jack wanting to dress nice for his confrontation with Jack, but i disagree with you that he is still civilized. Ralph wants to look the part and feel like he is still at home, but his actions prove that he is not. Him and Jack almost immediately get into a fight proving both of them have savage ways. The difference is Jack looks like a savage and Ralph doesn't.
DeleteIn this chapter, I noticed that the boys were often described as having faces painted in war paint. When Ralph suggested that the boys stand up to Jack, the boys were afraid because of how different the boys were when they were in their face paint, they "understood only too well the liberation into savagery that the concealing paint brought" (172). I think it is interesting that the boys use the face paint as a mask, and when wearing it only then are they able to fully become savage. In the last chapter, it seems that the face paint allowed Jack to act as a confident leader. When someone asked how they will make a fire he "flushed" beneath the paint. This made me think that they are able to forget their humanity and become animals when wearing the paint, as it helps them to detach themselves from their old way of life.
ReplyDeleteI agree. I believe that the mask almost lets them view themselves as seperate from human, so that they are able to scratch and bite other boys like animals. Also, it hides the insecurities of Jack so he can still be viewed as a strong leader that can protect them from fear, when he infact, is also fearful. The idea of this makeup or mask gives the boys security and unify them into a clan that listens and follows, much like the choir boys outfits at the beginning of the book.
DeleteI like the significance you're giving the face paint. Its as if they were never able to tap into their barbaric instincts when they were back in civilization, but now that they are in a realm of no parental supervision or rules of any kind, they can use these masks to transform themselves into people they didn't even know existed inside of them. This ties back to what the Lord of the Flies said to Simon about how they could never hunt the beast because the beast lives inside them.
DeleteI agree and I think the masks are a symbol of them losing their humanity. Them wearing the masks on the outside are also a symbol of the beast that was inside them surfacing on their outside. They're all becoming their fear, and the island is taking total control of all of them. Without any adults to tell them what to do, they stop fighting their fears and give in to them. If they didn't have these masks, they would be forced to be scared on the outside, and they have far to much pride to let that happen.
DeleteThis might have been forshadowed earlier on in the book but I did not see it coming at all."The rock struck Piggy a glancing blow from chin to knee; the conch exploded into a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist." Both of the islands symbols of order and humanity were killed with one giant stone. Although I understand the reasons for taking piggy away its just sad to see Ralph all alone now. Its also ironic to me that they came to get something of piggy back and then he loses his life in an attempt to control the boys. Now that both piggy and the conch are gone I see only Ralph as a symbol of stability on an island filled with crazed hunters.
ReplyDeleteI agree Senegal, that what happened to Pigyy was unfair and horrible, but I also agree that one rock destroyed most hope for Ralph. What I also found significant was how Golding described the conch to break "into a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist". The fact that he calls the conch white and not pink symbolizes that the conch had lost its value and was of no importance and as well how pure it once was. Without Piggy and the conch, can we foreshadow disorder once again?
DeleteI agree too, Senegal. I think that now as Ralph is all alone and the only one alive who seems to have at least an iota of sanity left in him, there is no longer hope of returning to the ways the boys came from, even if they were to be rescued. Rescue doesn't seem to be something any of the boys in Jack's tribe are concerned with, rather just life on the island. I wonder if they were to be rescues, would they even accept it?
DeleteSenegal, interesting point. To be honest I disagree with what you said about Ralph symbolizing stability on the island. The fact that Ralph runs away to hide in the forest didn't seem very stable to me, actually I think it made him look little and frightened and scared. I'm not trying to rip apart Ralph but I think that him running away really shows how dependent he was on Piggy, and how lost he now is without him. If all he could think to do is run away, I don't think that's very stable at all.
DeleteNot the most exciting part of the chapter, but a part that stood out to me was how Golding makes a clean statement about humanity by saying, " Supposing we go, looking like we used to, washed and hair brushed- after all we aren't savages... " (170). In the beginning of this book the boys were so excited to get away from any sense of authority and rule and gladly change themselves out of the normal order of their home society. But as they bring up this new idea all the boys get excited over the fact that they could be normal again. I think Golding believes that no society or group can function without a stable and justice based society. The idea of the wild is now horrible to them, and they want the authority that life once held. This also shows hom humanity needs constant order, unlike animals or savages that we see Golding characterizing a lot of the boys in this chapter as.
ReplyDeleteI agree with that statement completely that Golding believes that no society can function without a stable and justice based society. This reminds me of kids who wish they didn't have parents and then kids that had no choice. At the end of the day, rules are rules and I believe Golding tries to bring this up as a constant, main theme in Lord of the Flies.
DeleteThis chapter finally signifies the end of logical reasoning amongst the boys, and instead is replaced by the savage tactics of Jack and his group. I think one of the most significant parts of this chapter would be when Rodger killed Piggy, due to the fact that the most uncivilized and sociopathic character in the book killed the most reasonable and levelheaded characters. Because Jack was not elected in charge in the beginning, feelings of inadequacy began to fester inside him, which he was only able to silence by hunting. This fiending grew inside of him until he was able to assume full control over the group, sending them into a downward spiral of chaos and despair. Jack was never meant to be leader, but he could not come to grips with that fact, and in return destroyed the group from the organized civilization it could have been.
ReplyDeleteJake I agree with the assertions you are making here and I do think that Jack has finally assumed the absolute power he desired in the beginning of the book. However, I think it is also important to keep in mind that maybe Jack isn't doing such a bad job as leader of his own new group. Yes, of course he is much more savage and blood thirsty and cruel, but at the same time, is he not keeping his boys in line? Is he not providing them with killed pigs and a fire to cook them on? I think Jack is a different kind of leader, for sure, but not necessarily worse. Also, I think part of the reason he is acting so aggressive and not focusing on rescue is because this is the kind of leader that Ralph was, and Jack hates him and does not want to be like him (at least while he is alive).
DeleteA quote that stood out to me was, "He held out the conch to Piggy who flushed, this time with pride. 'You must carry it.' 'When we're ready I'll carry it-'" (172). The conch symbolizes not only the power to speak during assembly but also the power of speech itself, an ability that separates humans from animals. In a way, the savages cause Ralph to lose his power of speech, when he gives up his address on the importance of rescue because he is "defeated by the silence and the painted anonymity." With the exceptions of Jack's commands, the savages' reactions to Ralph's and Piggy's speeches are all non-verbal: jeering, laughing, booing, and a general "clamor." Following Roger's impulsive assassination of Piggy, "the silence was complete" as Piggy provided the last bastion of human intellect and reason on the island. Even up to the moment of his death, Piggy's perspective doesn't shift in response to the reality of their situation. At their little assembly, he demands action, still relying on Ralph to get things done despite the obvious disregard for his authority shown by all of Jack's tribe. Piggy cannot think as the others think or value what they value. Because his eminently sensible approach to life is modeled on the attitudes and rules of the authoritative adult world, he thinks everyone should share his values and attitudes as a matter of course. Speaking of the deaths of Simon and the littlun with the birthmark who had first brought up the beast as a concern, he asks "What's grownups goin' to think?" as if he is not so much mourning the boys' deaths as he is mourning the loss of values, ethics, discipline, and decorum that caused those deaths. Claiming that Jack has "got to" return his glasses because "what's right's right," he reveals that he holds a certain code of ethics to be universal and non-negotiable, as fundamental as fire. In reality, ethics originate from a particular society's values and expectations, Jack's radical ways cannot even match up with Ralph's self-composed nature.
ReplyDeleteLily Cook
ReplyDeleteThe part in Chapter 11 that stands out to me most is twofold. Firstly, the conch is of course a very symbolic figure of humanity throughout duration of the book, and when the conch is destroyed and broke into "a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist" I think this resembled the end to many things on the island. One of those things being Piggy's existence. This sentence fragment is quite ominous, even poetic, and then the next part where Piggy's body is washed out to shore, Golding writes that "the sea breathed again in a long, slow, sigh...and when it went, sucking back again, the body of Piggy was gone". I think that this is a serene ending to a brutal death, which is an intriguing writing choice on Golding's part, which I find made what happened in the chapter all the more profound.
Yes, the part where he describes the washing away of Piggy's body is quite relieving in way, as was Simon's. His body was also calmly swept away by the ocean, his "coarse hair in brightness. The line of his cheek silvered and the turn of his shoulder became sculptured marble" (154); showing how his body was at peace. The same thing happened with the parachuter's body. Why do you think Golding decided to ease the pain of these characters' deaths with water and then have that poor little boy die by fire in the beginning?
DeleteI agree Lily, the conch is symbolic to the unity of the boys, it in a way held them together. I was also shocked by Piggy's death, he seemed the most undeserving to die. I think that the reader is only slightly relieved when he dies because it is not in the horrific fashion that Simon died or any number of cruel, painful deaths that could occur on an island.
DeleteI also found the way that Golding describes Piggy’s death significant. I am surprised that William Golding describes the deaths of these boys (Simon and Piggy) as if they aren’t even a big deal; both deaths of the boys were associated with hatred and violence, yet he manages to make the bodies washing out to shore seem very peaceful. In response to Shelli’s question, I think that since the little boy in the beginning of the story isn’t as significant as the characters of Piggy and Simon, his death was more brutal and mysterious.
DeleteIn chapter ten everything changed for Ralph and his tribe when Piggy’s glasses were stolen. Piggy’s glasses symbolized his clear “vision,” Piggy was the only one whose vision of civilization and humanity stuck with him through out the story. You can see clear changes in Ralph’s tribe once the glasses are stolen, for example how Ralph fought Jack immediately instead of trying to speak to him. The only person you don’t see a change in is Piggy, showing how strong his vision actually is. Just like blind men in many Greek stories about the gods, Piggy is wiser then anyone with sight. For example on page 171 when he doesn’t take advantage of the power the conch shell has and instead gives it back to Ralph, “Piggy ended, flushed and trembling. He pushed the conch quickly into Ralph’s hands as though in a hurry to be rid of it and wiped the tear from his eyes. The green light was gentle about them and conch lay at Ralph’s feet, fragile and white. A single drop of water that has escaped Piggy’s fingers now flash down the delicate curve like a star.” Giving the conch shell back to Ralph proves that Piggy still has a clear conscious. Also, I think the fragile state of the conch represents Ralph’s lack of power and that the star represents Ralph’s tribe’s hope.
ReplyDelete*srry meant to write chapter eleven my mistake
DeleteElla, I agree with you. I think that Piggy was the one person who kept their old society in sight. I am scared to see how the next chapter will play out without Piggy and his vision. I think that his death will effect all the boys.
DeleteIn this chapter, two things really struck me about Piggy's death. The first quote that stood out to me was a quote on page 201, about the boys' reaction to Piggy's death. "This time the silence was complete. Ralph's lips formed a word but no sound came." I immediately compared this to the reaction to Simon's death, which for the most part was nonexistent. After Simon was murdered, the conflict was barely addressed, and even Piggy, while bringing it up, denied it! What about Piggy was so different from Simon that his death was given a different reaction? Were the boys more shocked to see someone who perhaps had more significance to the island go? The first thing I thought after I thought about the silence was emptiness, and maybe Golding is trying to foreshadow a sense of emptiness and unsure feeling now that Piggy is no longer with the boys. The second quote I found about Piggy was after his body had landed in the water, on page 201, "Then the sea breathed again in along slow sigh...and when it went, sucking back again, the body of Piggy was gone." I really loved this quote because Simon and the man with the parachute were taken away the exact same way. The water took them to an unknown place. It made me think about how no matter how different we are, different in power, in value, in acceptance, we all end up in the same place. So does it even matter who was most important? We're all eventually equal, now Piggy and Simon, regardless of how different they are, are together, somewhere. When Jack dies he'll be taken away the exact same way and same to every boy on the island. What's the point of division if we all end up together in the end?
ReplyDeleteWhen Roger pushed the rock, the boulder, "...struck Piggy, a glancing blow from the chin to knew; the conch exploded into a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist...Piggy's arms and legs twitched a bit, like a pig's after it has been killed" (181). First, the conch broke, which illustrates Jack finally defeating Ralph. Ralph's power in the group originated from the conch, and it was ultimately what convinced the group to listen to him. As the shell "ceased to exist," so did Ralph's influence on the group. Piggy's death comes with much symbolism as well. Of all of the children, Piggy more than anyone else was anti violence. Throughout the book, there was a struggle of order and peace versus savagery and violence. There was a clear shift towards violence when almost everyone moved to Jack's tribe, but there was still an essence of peace. Piggy's death shows how not only has Jack defeated Ralph, but violence has defeated peace as well.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThere is no returning from the point the boys have reached on the island. As Ralph and Jack face off for a fight, Golding uses the description "unnerved by each other's furiosity" (179, a quote that represents quite honestly the state of all the boys on the island. At least, that is, the boys of Jack's tribe. They all seem to be oblivious of the cruelty and violence and savagery they have all consistently been committing. Each individual's furiosity and evil tendencies has gone un recognized. I presume that there is no way they could ever return to a state or normalcy after the scenarios on the island have escalated to where they have. If they were to be rescued, perhaps the guilt that seems to be missing currently on the island would all come flooding in and a sudden realization of the madness on the island would occur. It is also quite possible that even if they re entered society, there would be no chance at accepting what went on on the island and therefore life in a civilized society would become generally impossible.
ReplyDeleteThe line that stood out to me in the chapter was about the tribe boys, "Once more the silvery laughter scattered,"(178). I was surprised that the savages laughs were described with the word "silvery". When I think of the word silvery, I think of metal and cold and emotionless. And I think that Golding was trying to portray the boys as turning into followers with no emotions or say in anything. I think this is important because not only have they changed from boys to savages, but now they are seeming to act less human. It might just be that they are entering a state of nature, but it was surprising that they could change like that. It makes the boys seem like heartless, robots, and I don't think this will help Ralph because they end up following. I wonder if the murders of both Simon and Piggy effect the boys a lot?
ReplyDeleteI agree with the irony there. When I think of the word silver I think about cleanness and savages are the complete opposite- wild, barbaric and dirty. I think that the silvery part of their laugh may represent their past and how they used to be good schoolboys because when they do laugh it is not a real authentic one, it's more of an uneasy laugh. One that they hope will gain approval.
DeleteI agree with you Lila. The boys are now emotionless and are definitely followers. To answer your question, I do not think the deaths of Simon and Piggy will effect the boys, because they now find joy in the torture and pain of others, since that is what Jack as told them to do. They will probably see Piggy's death as a victory, since he was the last of the boys to oppose savage behavior, and Jack no longer has any major opponents.
Delete"Roger advanced upon them as one wielding a nameless authority"(182). This quote stood out to me because it gives Roger a new identity. Roger after deliberately killing Piggy has emerged as a more dangerous character than Jack. Just recently in the last chapter Roger seemed disturbed by the log being used as a catapult. This quote makes Roger seem more intimidating and violent than ever. Another significant fact is how he didn't even receive orders to kill Piggy from Jack. He did it on his own which shows how he could also become a threat to Jack as the leader. He also decided to confront Samneric without confronting Jack which shows how he could be a danger to Jack. He seems to be fulfilling his own interests now.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, instead of continuing to be Jack's right hand man, Roger seems to be looking out for his own interest now. In the last chapter we can Roger "assimilating the possibilities of irresponsible authority" (160). And now in this chapter he has stepped up and started to follow his own path, which Roger hopes will lead him into power.
Delete"They understand only to well the liberation into savagery that the concealing paint brought."(172)The boys know they are becoming something that they fear,and this shows that they do know what actions they have taken on the island.Or at least Ralph,and the rest of his group know what has been going on.There is no excuse of not knowing what actions have been taken.Ralph does not seem to want have power just to have it, but instead he seems to want it to insure everyone's safely now.
ReplyDelete"'What can he do more than he has? I'll tell him what's what. You let me carry the conch, Ralph. I'll show him the one thing he hasn't got'"(171).
ReplyDeleteThe fact that Golding chose to write Piggy saying this foreshadowed Piggy's tragic death. Piggy has every right to be upset and angry, but I found it weird how he was talking in such a confrontational tone, he usually tends to shy away from fights especially when Jack is involved. And now here he is in a very vulnerable state, due to him not being able to see, trying to act all macho. It was just weird how he seemed to actually believe that he could talk some sense into Jack, when he knew that Jack didn't even like him in the first place and he's capable of murder.
I think that it's a good thing that Piggy finally showed some courage and confidence in himself. It also seems symbolic. I'm not sure if it had anything to do with his death, but it makes me feel at ease to know that he didn't die a shy and vulnerable coward, but rather a strong, confident and courageous boy, willing to stand up for what he thinks is right. Do you think it is significant that Jack killed him and do you think it was an accident or was he planning on killing Piggy?
DeleteThe way that Piggy's death is described is really vivid and descriptive. But what really caught my attention is when Piggy is compared to a Pig after it's been killed. It is not only ironic because his name is Piggy and they used a pig as an example, but it is also meaningful. "Piggy's arms and legs twitched a bit, like a pig's after it has been killed" (181). The pig, in this book, signifies many different things in my mind. It signifies life, death, food, savagery, and freedom. I feel as if Piggy's death signifies the death of all those things as well.
ReplyDeletegood point Michaella, i thought piggy's pig description was interesting and it seemed to me Golding was trying to make him seem less human. Which was peculiar because this made the hunters seem more human which im not sure Golding was trying to imply.
DeleteIt's also interesting because it reminded me of the Lord of The Flies, the pig head that stood on the pike, which I feel symbolizes order, just like the conch shell. Piggy's death symbolizes the end of humanity on that island, and the end of reason all together. They stole his gift of fire, and then stole his life, forever ending their chances of rescue. It's funny because they feel like they are doing so much towards their benefit, but with every other action, they make the situation worse for them, and just move them so much further from society, becoming possessed savages on this island.
DeleteI agree with you michaella, in saying that Piggy's death comes with a loss of many other things. But the relationship between the pig and Piggy is weirdly close. The savages needed to kill a pig for meat to survive, whereas Ralph and the others needed Piggy alive as a stable and thoughtful base that kept the group on their toes. And i also find it interesting that the deeper you read into the story the more significant the pig/piggy becomes. Now that Piggy is gone, there is no one to keep the kids in check.
DeleteIn this chapter the line that stood out to me was when Piggy says "I'll say, not because you're strong, but because what's right's right." Golding here is making the differences between both groups very clear and specific. I saw two clear opposing ideas, one of reason and on of savagery as Ralph said, "which is better?" Golding i think, approves of reason as Piggy stood up for morality and was killed. Golding seems to shun Jack and his hunters, but I think the better idea is rather open-ended i that either one could be better. The ideas are relative and not good nor bad. the societies seem to function with both ideas just in different ways, one seeming crueler than the other. Though Ralph's idea of rescue and his society was functioning through reason and morality, Jack's society seemed morally wrong but had progressed and should be considered somewhat successful in that they can sustain themselves. Lastly, i thought it was interesting how Jack unlike when they killed Simon was well aware of his actions "With full intentions" killed piggy and tried to kill ralph. i think this is very key in that they are no longer part of their old morals and very far from their old society.
ReplyDelete"The rock struck Piggy a glancing blow from chin to knee; the conch exploded into a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist." It was at this point, where all traces of humanity and civilization have been erased, and the boys have become completely primitive. The conch, even though the boys don't respond to it as a symbol of power anymore, was really the only thing that proved power on the island anymore. I also think that as the book went on, the symbolism of the conch shifted from the symbolization of authority and leadership, to order and civilization. Now that the conch has been destroyed, the voice of reason has totally been taken away from the island, and total chaos is amongst them. I also find it ironic how Piggy, who is one of the main voices of reason dies along with the smashing of the conch; these two figures leave at the same time, representing the little traces of humanity left on the island. Now that the boys have killed Piggy, they prove that their savagery and thirst for survival have taken over their intelligence and reason, completely dehumanizing the kids on the island.
ReplyDelete"Then the sea breathed again, in a long, slow sigh, the water boiled white and pink over the rock; and when it went, sucking back again, the body of Piggy was gone" (181). This passage was significant to me because of what Golding does with the sea. He uses personification, saying that the sea was "breathing" and "sighing". His language makes it seem like the sea is this eternal thing, that has grown used to carrying away things such as dead bodies, over the course of its existence. Just as when Simon was killed, the sea takes the body away, giving it a sense of being consistent, even when surrounding an island inhabited by constantly changing, savage boys. Its also significant to me that Golding writes that Piggy's body is "gone", rather then writing something like "carried off to sea". He gives the connotation that Piggy, and the final bit of sense and intelligence on the island, are both "gone" forever.
ReplyDelete"By him stood Piggy still holding out the talisman, the frail, shining beauty of the shell. The storm of sound beat at them, an incantation of hatred. High overhead, Roger, with a sense of delirious abandonment, leaned all his weight on the lever. Ralph heard the great rock long before he saw it. ...The rock struck Piggy a glancing blow from chin to knee; the conch exploded into a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist. "
ReplyDeleteAs the story progressed, we saw that the conch turn from a complex, beautiful symbol of power to meaningless fragments, not even worthy of existence. This is very symbolic, because it is arguable that the same thing has happened to the boys. They were once boys who were being given an opportunity to escape war and have a chance at successful lives, but they became less and less with each turn of a page. They now lack the complex minds of humans, and have turned to the narrow-minded minds of savages. Though there was always hope that some of the boys could resist this savage behavior, that hope was crushed with the deaths of Simon and Piggy. Simon and Piggy were the only two boys towards the end of the story who had a sort of moral compass, and were human enough that they were not labeled savages. This is why it is very symbolic that Roger killed Piggy. Rodger understands civility the least, while Piggy understands savagery the least. This shows that savagery has won out, and there is no hope for civilization within the boys.
"The rock struck Piggy a glancing blow from chin to knee; The conch exploded into a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist."
ReplyDeleteSince the beginning of the story, the single most important object has been the conch shell. It, symbolizing authority and civilization, was the object that brought all the boys together and kept them in order. The breaking of the conch shell tells the reader that there is absolutely no hope left in regaining proper society because everything has descended into total chaos. Now without the conch shell and the death of piggy(symbolizing intelligence), Ralph, standing alone, faces an even tougher battle in getting off the island. It also seems like there is very little chance that the other boys will come to there senses and join back with Ralph. Golding describes the boys as, "painted savages," showing that they seem to be already transformed into these savage monsters, and are unlikely to change their minds.
"Surprisingly, there was silence now; the tribe were curious to hear what amusing thing he might have to say." (180)
ReplyDeleteThroughout the story, Piggy has been silenced, and barely even noticed by the island. He was taken advantaged of and only used for what the society thought he was good for like his glasses. However, this quote explains the importance of Piggy on the island. He finally gets the attention of the painted faces (who only listen to their leader Jack) with the help of the conch. What stands out to me is that he is almost the voice of reason although no one noticed until he died. The entire vibe and tone on the island changed after his death, which symbolized his importance to the society. What also excluded Piggy from the others is that he called them children, basically he took a role as the adult, which is what all the kids needed in the first place. I am scared to see where the groups will go from here, and how they will end up surviving with such a division. Especially because Jack killed his second human without feeling guilty, I feel like a pattern is forming.
That is a very good point and i completely agree with the fact that the boys enately lack a parental figure, and this also shows that the conch is in existence and that they traditions of the talking in meetings will forever continue
DeleteThe quotation that stood out to me the most was, "'[We should be] looking like we used to, washed and hair brushed -- after all we aren't savages really....'" (pg. 155). This quotation is significant because this shows the glimpse at reality that the boys enter, that they see that the situation that the way that they're living, the way that they are doing things should be different. We as readers see the boys as slowly turning into savages and wanting to be in touch with human nature and want to kill everything in its site, they dont have that authority figure who is supposed to basically knock some sense into the boys when they're getting out of hand. In this quotation the boys remember what they did before the island and the non parental figures around and they know/ realize that they way they're acting something is wrong with it.
ReplyDeleteThe line that struck me most in this incredibly unexpected chapter was the first the second thing the officer say to Ralph "fun and games" on page 200. Any outside observer could clearly see that a boy I being chased by a group of boys painted in war paint and carrying spears and that half of the island is on fire; none of this seems like fun and games. This last chapter is possibly the most ironic way to end the book the solider shows disgust that "English boys" would behave in such an uncivilized manor yet he along with most of Europe is fighting an extremely vicious war. Golding uses this irony to represent his views on how the theme of hypocrisy is present throughout class separation (because they are boys they shouldn't being do this but the adults can). It's also interesting that Golding makes the officer seem slightly naive and not too bright considering he fought in the war. The ending of The Lord of the Flies is not entirely satisfying but after thinking about it I believe that a satisfying ending would not fit and would seem out of place. Ultimately the boys have all been permanently changed but I don't think that the island has given them new personality traits only extremely exaggerated the ones they had once they arrived on the island.
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