1) Write a response, choosing a line and explaining it's significance to you. Please remember: no plot re-cap! Share your analysis, make larger connections to the world, ask questions, discuss imagery, discuss language and symbolism, and deepen your thinking. 2) Don't forget to respond to someone else's post! Answer their question, or pose a question of your own.
"You go away, Ralph. You keep to your end. This is my end and my tribe. You leave me alone"(176). This quote stood out to me because after reading it, I almost laughed. It seems as though Jack is saying that Ralph is starting problems and that if Ralph just leaves him alone, everything will be fine. This is the opposite of true considering Jack constantly invades Ralph's left over territory and beats them up. I think this still shows that Jack is not so masculine and still just a boy. I think this because Jack is almost fed up and does not want to have to deal with Ralph and I can imagen young boys saying this to one another, or a teacher telling this to two young children trying to settle a dispute. I also think that Jack is kind of unaware of what he does, he seems to completely forget about causing all the problems, killing Piggy and more.
ReplyDeleteI really agree with you, the reason the boys are having problems is because they are just that, boys. Their problems and politics are warped to the ignorance and limitations of their age. Ralph has always been a voice of reason, and the author intended him to play this role, as he was even described as more mature physically. He gave off a confidence in himself and his decisions, decisively separating him from his peers
DeleteWas it really Jack that killed Piggy? I read over that passage a couple times and I still can't seem to understand it. What killed Piggy? It was a rock, but what was that noise Ralph kept hearing? It is possible that Golding intentionally made this hard to understand, because it is hard to understand for the boys themselves. They don't get why they are on this island, or what the beast is, or whether or not they really killed simon, and even who they should be listening to. Come to think of it, Golding writes all of the death scenes like this, "At once the crowd surged after it, poured down the rock, leapt on to the beast, screamed, struck, bit, tore. There were no words, and no movements but the tearing of teeth and claws." (153) Maybe Golding is trying to make a point.
DeleteHenry, I'm glad you asked the question about who killed Piggy. It is sort of a confusing description. Can anyone clarify??
DeleteQuote:
ReplyDelete"What's grownups goin' to think? Young Simon was murdered. And there was the other kid what had a mark on his face. Who's seen him since we first come here?"(Ralph 197).
Response:
This quote stood out to me because it reveals the under lying necessity for parental control on the island. Not only is Simon dead, but kids are missing, and finally in this chapter Piggy is killed. It reminds me of problems that New York faces with gang on gang violence, or unnecessary violence. Ralph even says "you could have had fire whenever you wanted"(204). Showing that you don't have to ask for it once or twice, but you could have borrowed it anytime. Jack's need for power and desire for respect causes him to shun authority and do what he knows is wrong. Ralph could barely remember what Jack looked like without the mask on his face, comparing him to who he once knew. Finally when Piggy is killed Golding describes the sea breathing again, "the water boiled white and pink over the rock." Why do you think he brings up the pink and do you think the water breathing again is a sigh of relief?
I agree with you. Nice connection you made to the gang violence occurring in our country. The crave for power among gangs causes many to die even their loved ones but as long as they get the greatest respect they really don't seem to mind till much later.
DeleteThe non-existence of parental control on the island shows just how much young kids need that adult figure to guide them even if they act like they can take on their roles and everything would be just fine which as we see wouldn't be fine. The boys try to take up these roles and fail, having Ralph slowly lose the respect and having Jack think about hunting all the time and slowly getting into a dictator role. The boys know that grown ups would not be please with the actions they have taken and three deaths, and the quote shows that they know what the grown ups would think.
Great point Tyrone! I agree with you how Jack is over-using this authority in a sense towards insanity. Everyone on this island doesn't realize that they are still coming of age and they do need parental control. I do feel that instead of following Jack, everyone should respect Ralph from the start because he is one of the people maturing on this island while Jack is immaturing as the days go by. Also great point with the gangs in New York, i totally agree!
DeleteTyrone-- Excellent observation about the sea breathing. Why do you think Golding keeps personifying both the sea and the island? Also, why the reference to pink here? We know that the pink in this scene comes from Piggy's red blood mixed with water. Does this give us any more hints about the other "pink" references?
Delete"Suddenly Jack bounded out from the tribe and began screaming wildly," (181).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because of how unaware Jack seems to be of what has just happened. It makes me think Jack intended to kill one of the boys which is why Roger was even standing next to that lever in the first place. It just happens to be Piggy, the one who kept trying to talk and get the boys to realize Jack is no good. As Piggy was speaking, Jack's voice became minimal which knowing his character wasn't so pleasing for him since he wants all the power and the most control which he was losing during this situation. Golding used the words "bounded out from the tribe and began screaming wildly" which I take as Jack took this as an accomplishment or something to be excited about. It's almost as if it could've said he jumped with joy and screamed of happiness. Golding's use of the word "wildly" shows Jack is just completely out of his mind. No normal boy would act like that after some just fell to their death. Just shows how cruel and savage Jack is and how the crave for power took control of him.
Hi Michelle! I agree but, don't you feel that it was Jack and his tribes intention to kill Piggy from the start? I mean, they stole his glasses, almost purposefully luring them into their control, and then almost immediatley, starts to attack. Now it seems like they replaced Piggy with Samneric, torturing them to make Ralph join their tribe. If it wasn't Piggy, then it was bound to be someone from Ralph's group.
DeleteWhy did Golding create such a sadistic kid? Jack has clearly lost his mind. What does his character represent? Also, Roger is the one who actually kills Piggy, and he has some sadistic tendencies as well. How are Roger and Jack similar or different?
Delete"The yelling ceased and Samneric lay looking up in quite terror. Roger advanced upon them as one wielding a nameless authority." p. 182
ReplyDeleteI chose this quote because it really shows how manipulative and evil Jack's tribe have now become. They have already killed two of the boys, Simon and Piggy, as well as severely beating members of Ralph's tribe. Now, they are torturing Samneric to get Ralph and the others to join their tribe. They want absolutley nothing to do with the concept of a "civilized" being and cannot even stand that they have to share a portion of the island with some. They want total control and their thirst of power has caused them to lose any sense of humanity and/or kindness with in them. I wouldn't be surpised if Jack had told the group that Piggy was just one of several other shape-shifting beasts. The conch is destroyed and now Ralph has nothing at all to both protect and represent him. But who knows, maybe it is for the better that Jack and Ralph unite tribes. Although Jack still remain in absolute control, maybe Ralph would be able to sway Jack and persuade him to change his thinking. Maybe you need a little bit of both savagery and civilized to make a society really work.
Interesting idea, Jaad. I wonder...I've also been reading up on Freud lately, and while I'm not sure that every civilization needs savagery and civility, I do think that all humans have base desires in their subconscious. In reading about the Id, Ego, and Superego, there is a evidence to suggest that we all have a bit of savage and civilized within us.
DeleteI agree Jaad. I don't even think Jack wants a society, let alone it being civil in anyway. At this point I think it's all about greed, and Jack just wants what should have been his at the beginning, and thats power. Although you're last argument about Ralph swaying Jack's mind is hopeful, its unrealistic at this point. Piggy just died trying to bring everyone together; so I think everyone on Jack's side is going to stay there.
Delete"I say! You voted for me for chief. Didn't you hear the conch? You played a dirty trick-we'd have given you fire if you'd asked for it-"(204)
ReplyDeleteI chose this quote because it stood out to me how Ralph stood up for himself and about him being the chief around here. I feel like he found his confidence, the same confidence from the start of the book. The type of tone he uses towards Jack is very bossy yet powerful. At this point there is this rivalry between Jack and Ralph, from the predictions i made in the past I foreshadowed that Jack would somehow try to be leader and challenge Ralph. The only savage thing Jack did was that he did play this dirty trick on them attacking them. I've had enough of how Jack thinks he is top dog around the island and he can do anything, I find it really bold of Ralph to finally try to end this uncivilized acts of Jack. I wonder if Jack will return to sanity, will they work together to get off this island? Settle their differences?
I agree, Ralph's move was very bold and powerful. However, you said you had enough of Jack thinking he is top dog, I don't think he thinks he is, I think he knows he is. He has a bigger "tribe"than Ralph does, and he has more power over his fellow members. Now that Piggy is gone and Samneric have been taken, Ralph either has to live on his own, or fall under Jack's rule.
DeleteI agree, Jake. I also think that there is evidence to suggest that Jack wanted to kill Ralph. Why would he be so dead set (excuse the pun!) on destroying Ralph??
Delete“Roger took up a small stone and flung it between the twins, aiming to miss... Some source of power began to pulse in Roger’s body.” (175)
ReplyDeleteThis chapter was one of the most intense and crazy so far. Although most of the chapter revolved around savagery, the quote I chose showed a little bit of logic and civility within Roger even though he has joined Jack’s group. Roger has aimed to miss before, however, others don’t know that, for all they know he is trying to hurt others, maybe kill them, but he just has bad aim. Because of this, Roger feels power by the fact the others now fear him, as they fear Jack. Jack is very similar, he hides behind a mask in order to show one emotion, and that is intimidation, not fear and embarrassment like he sometimes is. Since both of these characters cover their true emotions, I believe that many others are doing the same. For instance, when a boy says something not worth laughing about, but others do it anyway, they are trying to put themselves above the person to feel some sort of power. The only two characters that didn’t do this were Simon and Piggy. They came forward with their ideas even though they knew they were going to get mocked for it, because they did this, they become the bottom of the food chain and therefore died.
I totally agree with you. I was honestly surprised to see that not all fo the boys had become savages, that there were still a few who thought logically and humanely. Roger shows that although he want the admiration of the others, he is still not willing to stoop low enough that he would actually kill another human being. He is smart and knows how to trick them without getting caught and punished because of his lies.
DeleteI agree with you, I think this chapter was very significant and very crazy. I think you make a very strong point about the boys hiding their emotions. In my opinion, the boys use savagery and the strive for power to mask the little boys that they still are but don't want to show. I agree that because of Ralph and Jack the others become savage as well, I think that all really hate the way they are, but all they want to do is to fit into the last bit of the tiny society they have left.
DeleteWhoa! Guys! I disagree! I think Roger is one of the more twisted characters in the whole novel. He was the one who sent the rock tumbling to kill Piggy. Golding continually refers to his admiration of Jack's devilish ways. He was the one who tormented the little kids in the sand. And finally, he was the one who tortures Samneric. I wouldn't call his "aiming to miss" civilized at all. I would call it trying to instill fear by tormenting others. What do you think?
Delete“You're a beast and a swine and a bloody, bloody thief!” (179)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out to me because Ralph is accusing Jack of being a beast. So far in the book we see how terrified the boys are of the beast and this symbolizes how afraid the boys are of Jack since he is a “beast”. Also, “swine” is another word for pig and Jack hunts for pigs and he is extremely brutal when he hunts. I think this is foreshadowing that ultimately Jack will end up killing himself because he will end up losing his mind. I think the repeating of the word “bloody” shows how bold the statement actually is and how significant it is. Jack’s hunting skills are, indeed, inhuman and bloody. Additionally, beasts are evil and terrifying just like Jack is. He terrifies everyone on the island and he thinks he’s superior. Jack is a thief because he stole Piggy’s specs and basically the fire but he also stole Sam and Eric from Ralph. Jack has left Ralph all alone and vulnerable because Jack and his tribesmen killed Piggy and Simon. Will Jack ever realize that he is a beast? And that the way he hunts is evil and merciless? Will Ralph be able to survive alone on the island? Or will he join Jack and his tribe? Will Ralph make it home?
Hi Mahwhish. This quote stood out to me too. It is a very strong quote, but I disagree that Jack will kill himself. I think the fact that he is being called the beast is significant because he doesn't realize how beastly he is. He is so blood-thirsty and savage that he doesn't realize he has already gone crazy. I think the purpose of calling Jack the beast is to show that he is going to hurt others, not himself, because so far that is all the beast has done.
DeleteThis might sound funny, but if Jack is the "beast", then what is the "beast," really?
Delete“Piggy held up the conch and the booing sagged a little…The booing rose and died again as Piggy lifted the white, magic shell.” (179,180)
ReplyDeleteI chose this line because it shows how all boys; even the ones currently in Jack’s tribe stop speaking when the conch is blown. This shows the innate sense of order embedded in every human’s inner nature. As much as Jack would wish for this to not be the case, for the hiatus from society to have permanently scarred the boys, he is unable to erase the remnants of the boys’ past lives. Although the boys may be under the spell of a glamorous life as a savage, hunting, playing, without any inhabitations or second thoughts about being recued, with the right guidance and order they can maintain sanity. This in turn will lead to rescue. As the book has progressed to its eventual closing, Ralph has been more vocal about his concerns regarding rescue. However, his concern has always been that he will become like the other boys, and not want to leave. He has always been wary, not about a lack of rescue its self, but rather the symptom.
Nice use of the word "hiatus" :).
DeleteAlso, what do you think is driving the boys? They are continually referred to as one being now that they have become savage?
"The conch exploded into a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist." (p.181)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it references the destruction of the conch. The conch was the symbol of the society, it was the first thing that brought them all together, and up until now, it had kept them together. By Goulding destroying it, the boys are free to wreck havoc on one another. All forms of structure have disappeared, along with any trace of responsibility on the boys' behalves. The way Goulding says 'ceased' makes me think that the past relations of the society will be forgotten. The boys will no longer remember the beginning days when they held meetings and worked together to build a fire, no all that has been erased. In it's place will be the feelings of anger and hatred towards one another, which will only lead to violence and the eventual downfall of their civilization.
I agree with you! The conch lost it's power a long time ago but now since the conch is actually gone it indicates the downfall of their civilization. Piggy's glasses took the Conch's place, it has more authority and whoever has the glasses is dominant. Do you think Piggy's glasses will be destroyed as well just like the conch was? Do you think without the conch the island will be chaotic? Or it will function the way it always had?
DeleteI agree with you Alyssa because with the destruction of the conch there is no hope for a society and civilization. And Mahwish, I don't necessarily think that the glasses will be destroyed unless it's by mistake because there's not much significance to it anymore. To me, it no longer represents power and authority since Jack is already the most powerful no matter what because now it's everyone against Ralph. But the hopes of being rescued all rely now on Ralph because Jack uses the fire for cooking instead of as a signal for help. With the glasses in the hands of Jack, broken or not, there is no hope for rescue.
DeleteYour point is really interesting. I see the connection that you're making between the destruction of the conch, which I always saw as a symbol for order and peace, and the more metaphoric separation that occurs within the boys. Throughout time, as they all stopped respecting the conch and its power to speak, or call a meeting, they drifted further apart, into their own groups. Jack started his group, which was almost like a rebellion from the power, which is interesting because they end up creating the fire which is symbolic for destruction and unstoppable havoc, as you described the boys states of being.
DeleteI agree with you Alyssa, the destruction of the conch will be an significant event for Jack and his group. This will be the moment where there dominance actually begins, because Jack says after that he is the chief now. But one question that arises is that Will they forget all about the Conch? I think that they will still hold some laws of the conch, because Jack would want to keep his crew under control and that the way to do it,
Delete"Piggy's arms and legs twitched a bit, like a pig's after it has been killed. Then the sea breathed in a long, slow sigh, the water boiled white and pink over the rock; and when it went, sucking back again, the body of Piggy was gone." (p181)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it was very sad and descriptive. Golding compared Piggy to an actual pig, which leads me to think Golding did that purposely, making Piggy's death inevitable, not only because he was fat. Also, I think Piggy and the Pig have the same characteristics as fat, quite, slow but also smart with trying to survive. Also, the color pink was mentioned in this quote, which I feel is ironic. This chapter was obviously very savage and intense but Pink is supposed to be harmonic. I think that Piggy represented the only harmony left in their tiny society, but the sea took Piggy, also taking the harmony. I think Golding chose the sea to take Piggy because they are on an Island and it is the only way off. I think this was meant to symbolize Piggy once and for all escaping the horrors of this society.
I agree. Piggy is similar to a pig, and he was the only voice of reason left on the island. Even Ralph is losing his reason because he struggles to remember why they should keep the fire going. Piggy’s death and the breaking of the shell represent the complete destruction of civilization on the island. I think this foreshadows the point where the boys’ savageness is absolutely unstoppable. Right after Piggy’s death, no one seems to feel guilty. Instead, Jack screams wildly and his tribe wants to continue fighting Ralph. Once human savageness is let out, can it be controlled or prevented? Does Jack feel any remorse at all?
DeleteI agree that it is an escape from the horrors of the island for Piggy, but I think for the other boys, everything will get a whole lot worse. Piggy and the conch together represented the last strong reminder of society, civilization, and order, that the boys had with them on the island. Golding illustrates with this how quickly people can turn savage when they have no way to be reminded of what life was like before, or what life is like in a society where there is order and law, and violent acts are penalized. With no clear set of rules other than something like, whatever Jack says goes, I wonder how long the boys within the tribe think they will be able to remain as one. I wonder if they will not eventually incur the same issues and differences between each other that separated the original group.
Delete"The forest re-echoed; and birds lifted, crying out of the treetops, as on that first morning ages ago." (170)
ReplyDeleteI don't quite understand this line, I feel like there is some deeper meaning to it, but I can't figure it out. There is definitely an aspect of symetry to it, except everything is different at the same time. Another thing that caught my attention is that this is the one of the first times that they boys consider how long they have been on the island for. At first there was so much adrenaline running through their veins that time didn't matter, but as things have taken a turn for the worst it is now floating around in their minds. Before, blowing the conch was exciting, exillerating, possibly even scary. Now it is a tradition, maybe a tradition that they have forgotten why they do it in the first place (like in "The Lottery"). If you think about all the things that have happened during their time on this island, it is hard to think about it in terms of days, months, or even years. I wonder how long they have actually been on this island for, it is never mentioned. This island feels like time doesn't pass on it, only a change between night and day.
Henry, I'm glad you brought up a line that confused you. This is exactly what the blog is for. I think it's significant that the forest "re-echoed," as that seems a bit redundant. Also, I think it's interesting that while the birds were "crying" in the first passage as they are now, their crying takes on a more ominous tone now. But I agree with you-- why the symmetry? Why is Golding taking us back to this first description at this point in the plot?
Delete"Piggy fell forty feet and landed on his back across the square red rock in the sea," (181).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me, not because of the sentence itself, but because of the reference to the color red. Red is a very strong color that can represent many things. It can represent love, but it can also represent anger and blood and savage. The red here represents what the boys have become. They have become angry, savage beasts. Red also represent fire, one of the main focuses for the boys. The reason Piggy dies is because they went to Jack's camp to retrieve his glasses, which start the fire. The use of red here is very small, but very significant. Red is an exciting color and the use of it is to represent all the things the boys have become, savage, blood-thirsty, angry, fire.
True-- I also wonder if the red here is just a darker shade of the "pink" that we've been noticing throughout the novel.
Delete“Roger edged past the chief, only just avoiding pushing him with his shoulder.” (182) This quote conveys that Roger is truly evil. He does not have reason behind his savage actions; he simply symbolizes evil. Once he sees Jack prodding the twins, he immediately incorporates it as a sign allowing him to torture or kill the twins. Roger doesn’t even bother to walk past Jack carefully on the narrow path. Jack is his chief, and we would assume he should be respected by his tribe members. But Roger carelessly pushing past Jack is done out of pure evilness. His acts are done without consideration and reason for anyone, including his own chief. I think Roger’s character generally represents the dark part of our world. He is one of those people who are naturally evil and have no morals. It is scary to know that someone like Roger exists in society today. Roger’s character also reminds me of Arnold Friend from “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” Why are these two characters evil? Are they born like this, or are they influenced by some sort of savageness in society?
ReplyDeleteI agree, Xingduo. It seems like Roger is truly sadistic. To me, he is the reason why we have a criminal justice system in our society today (and yes, I am still on jury duty. I have criminal justice on the brain!).
Delete"You’re a beast and a swine and a bloody, bloody thief!”
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because Ralph said that Jack stole his power but in reality he let him steal it. It is another example of the power struggle between the characters, and how this is a continuing issue. I think that RAlph should accept that although he was a good leader his passiveness affected his reputation and that although being aggressive now helps its a little bit to late. More specifically Ralph calling Jack a beast, makes me believe that he might agree with what simon said, and the words swine and bloody remind me of the colors. THe colors Golding give so much importance to.
JJ- Which colors do swine and bloody remind you of? Why might this be significant?
DeleteI agree that Ralph's passiveness lead to his downfall as a leader but I do not entirely agree with the idea that Ralph has no hope of getting power back. In this chapter power turns completely into a physical thing, and when Ralph looses the physical fight with Jack THEN he loses his power. One of the main elements of this story is the "simon says" aspect of the boys, most of the boys will do whatever the rest of the boys or the oldest boys are doing even if it is irrational or even against their own best interests. so I think that if Ralph had won the fight with Jack he would have got the boys power back, because that is the same primitive and animalistic way that Jack won the boys support in the first place, he bribed them and proved to them that he was "stronger" then Ralph.
Delete"The rock struck Piggy a glancing blow from chin to knee; the conch exploded into a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist." Page 254
ReplyDeleteI thought this was an interesting quote because it really marks the end of an era for the boys on the island. Although we can tell that the power of the conch was largely diminished and slowly drained throughout previous chapters, and it was already worth next to nothing, it is interesting to see how it still had somewhat of an effect on the boys--Piggy was actually able to quiet them a few times with it. This shows something about how the boys, despite trying to become savages, and being turned savage by the island, still have some of the remnants of the societies from which they came imbedded within them. I noticed that when the conch does break, Golding writes that it "ceased to exist". This stood out to me because it seemed like a bigger and bolder statement than needed to be made to say a conch broke. However, I think one of Golding's points here is that it wasn't only the conch that broke-it was the last piece, or symbol, of society and civilization, on the island. Civility lost it's last foothold when the conch broke--and immediately after, Piggy dies, and the boys turn violently against Ralph. These things must have happened after the conch "ceased to exist" because all rules and normalities also went out the window with the conch.
I agree, I think that these boys especially Jack are not necessarily all savage but just as the sea sucked Piggy in immediately after he fell, the "game" they were playing sucked them in as well. The question I want to ask is how did they get so lost playing? The society that they once had still shows on the island by the boys reacting to the conch and I think that the fact that they reacted shows a level of hope for them. The line that said the conch "ceased to exist" confused me because even though the boys silenced when they heard it, the line speaks to the opposite idea. I agree that this signifies a total loss of rules but in many ways the society that Jack has put together has more rules just ones that are centered around a very different goal.
Delete"The rock struck Piggy and a glancing blow from chin to knee; the conch exploded into a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist." (page 181)
ReplyDeleteThis line really stood out to me because the conch had evolved into the society because of Piggy. And now Piggy's life ended along with the complete destruction of the conch. The description of the conch exploding into thousands of pieces represents the society that could never be fixed. The conch once represented authority and civilization on the island but now that it has shattered to pieces, the only source of society has vanished. I think that Piggy's life ended with the destruction of the conch because there was no longer any room for society itself, left on the island. Piggy was among the few who wanted to rebuild the society by means of escaping the island but his death and the shattering of the conch shows the society's inability to revive.
"Piggy's arms and legs twitched a bit, like a pig's after it has been killed. Then the sea breathed in a long, slow sigh, the water boiled white and pink over the rock; and when it went, sucking back again, the body of Piggy was gone." (181)
ReplyDeleteHoly crap guys: Piggy is dead! This, to me, is probably one of the saddest parts of the book, and the really sad part is the way he died. Piggy died trying to unite everyone with the original artifact that did it in the first place, and he got killed by a rock. Piggy did not deserve this at all. To killed off by a freak accident, and then Golding really compared him to a dead pig, and that is awful. We brought up in class how pink is supposed to portray peacefulness and such, but this is such a messed up part to incorporate that message into. Or I could be wrong, which I probably am. Golding, on the other hand, might be saying that Piggy is peaceful. He was literally suffering on this island without glasses, good food to upkeep his diet, and lets not forget his Auntie. Maybe the fact that there was a pink rock by piggy means that he was peaceful; he deserved that rest.
I agree! When Golding compares Piggy to an actual pig I felt that was kind of ironic and mean because through out the beginning of the book Piggy always said that he hated being called Piggy and then he is being compared to a pig at his death is really messed up! Also I kind of think that Piggy really was at peace because just like Simon he did not see his death coming and didn't suffer, and along with the pink rocks and being swept away by the ocean symbolizes his freedom off the island.
Delete"By common consent they were using the spears as sabers now, no longer daring the lethal points." (177) This quote may not have been the most important in the chapter but it stood out to me for a number of reasons. First of all I was very confused by the delicate manner in which Jack and Ralph fight. Golding displays the harsh and truly savage minds of the children when they kill Piggy but still Jack and Ralph fight in such a way that they make sure not to hurt each other. Why would the two people on the island who seem to dislike each other the most want to keep each other safe? This may be because without the role of Ralph as the force the tribe will fight against they have no true purpose. In many ways I think that Jack needs Ralph to play a vital role on the island to hold on to his power in the obsessive way he does. Without Ralph, Jack has no opposition and because of that this "game" that he is playing would not be fun. Another reason this quote stood out to me was because within the words I can sense a deep level of respect within the two leaders. While they are both very different in their leadership qualities they both respect what the other represents. This respect is exactly what is keeping the island from falling apart completely and having Jack take his anger out on his one true enemy. Jack understands that he has the ability to take out Ralph but does not want to. This makes me think that maybe Jack is not truly savage at heart, he just got lost in the moment of the "game". Is it possible that Jack can actually think for the betterment of the island but is now so adrift in his ideas, he is unable to turn back?
ReplyDeleteYeah this is exactly what I was thinking when I read this quote. I guess to further deepen this insight is to ask why do they need to have this game? Why do the characters need to have this game of opposition and power to keep them going? This perhaps says something about human beings and our natural instincts toward dominance. I'm not sure, but this really is interesting to think about.
Delete"'What can he do more than he has? I'll tell him what's what. You let me carry the conch, Ralph. I'll show him the one thing he hasn't got'" (171). Since we know Piggy dies one could say reading this quote again is ironic for his character. But is it? Jack took away Piggy's sight, his capability to act and live on a difficult island. Not only that, he took away the one object and source of rescue. Without the glasses there's no fire and without the fire there's no smoke and without smoke there is no rescue. So what more could Jack do to them that will hurt them? I wonder if Piggy's murder is any more serious than just the simple idea that they will never be rescued, and they will die on this island. What more could Jack have done. I truly would like to side against murder, but Piggy may have a point, that is if murder had even crossed his mind. But how is the society and life on the island any different from the civilized world. What point is there to living in one place rather than another, excluding dangerous areas/places in need? If you can continue to live, and if you can continue to function, what more is there? Isn't that what our natural instincts tell us? Survive. The boys have a source of food, places to explore, and each other. Of course they long to be rescued, but is it worth it when you come down to whether Piggy's life without hope is worth living anymore? The conch is all the boys have left. It represents the last bit of civilized order they have on the island. We soon learn it is destroyed along with the life of Piggy.
ReplyDeleteThe conch was the one thing that was similar to the society run by adults, and now that it is destroyed I think Ralph, especially, loses hope of rescue. I think that it is still important to strive for rescue because for some of the boys (Ralph) that is his instinct for survival. He is less impulsive and immediate, not killing to survive, but logically trying to find a way to be rescued.
Delete"'[We should be] looking like we used to, washed and hair brushed - after all we aren't savages really...'" pg. 155
ReplyDeleteRalph tries to argue that they aren't savages, but I disagree. At the beginning, the boys tried to act rationally, controlling their fears of the beast, and rationalizing any losses. By the Middle, Jack was the first to loose his mind, when he got bloodthirsty. By the end, the boys are full on Savages, after killing Simon and Piggy. I believe that Golding said "washed and brushed" to say they were kind of manicured around society. Once on the island, they had to fend for themselves, which forced them to leave the norms set before them to survive. But who is to know which is the real state of being, people may tend towards the savage, kill or be killed mentality that they have to have on the island. The two different groups on the island represent those different lifestyles. Jack's tribe worked towards savagery, with sacrifices, hunting trips, and the fire as a main figure. Ralph led an organized group, hailing the conch, which is symbolic of order, because it is used to call meetings.
"Suddenly Jack bounded out from the tribe and began screaming wildly. 'See? See? That's what you'll get! I meant that! There isn't a tribe for you anymore! The conch is gone-"(209).
ReplyDeleteThis stood out to because Jack's outburst was the first reaction after Piggy's murder. I find it interesting that Jack felt the need to assure Ralph that murdering Piggy was intentional. I think that shows a bit of insecurity in Jack's character that perhaps explains his behavior throughout the book and the way he has turned out. it also stood out to me how Jack tells Ralph that he now has no "tribe". Golding uses this word to highlight the primitive nature of the boys' civilization and therefore make the point that humans in their natural state are brutal, savage and cruel. Jack threatens to kill Ralph as well, while also pointing out that he has taken Ralph's two remaining traces of the power he once had: the conch and his loyal follower, Piggy.
I like your observation on Jack’s reaction after Piggy’s murder. I found out a little bit strange because, this only has been the reaction of Jack has portrayed when a boy has been murdered. To add on to your observation I think Jack’s outburst after piggy’s death came from built up anger towards Ralph and Piggy. Piggy was the only character who came up the idea of the conch and the conch symbolized power, which Jack was deprived of because they elected Ralph as leader instead of him. Jack was angry that he didn’t have this power and he partially blamed on Piggy. Therefore he was somewhat happy because of Piggy’s death and the conch being destroyed.
DeleteI completely agree. I analyzed this quote as well because i thought it was one of the most important parts in the chapter. I feel as if Jack meant to hurt Piggy, but not necessarily kill him. Though it did happen, he tries to reassure Ralph, and maybe even himself that it was on purpose, in order to feel more powerful and to instill fear into Ralph.
DeleteAfter Piggy gets hit by a rock and is blown off of the cliff into the water, where he hits the ground, and dies, Lack wildly screams to Ralph "See? See? That's what you'll get! I mean that! There isn't a tribe for you anymore! The conch is gone... I'm chief!" (181). This quote was very powerful to me because it juxtaposes a death, which is very serious, with the childish rowdy behavior of Jack. Before Jack says anything everyone is silent, with the weight of what just occurred, sinking in to them. I think they now realize that what they are doing is not at all accidental, or with the intention of fun, but is full blown savagery. It is very creepy to read over the quote as if you were hearing it from a political leader. Imagine if you saw the leader of your community watch someone get killed, and scream with joy that it was completely intentional. That part is scary, but the scariest part is when he says "I'm chief!" I think this really shows how power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Jack has been so corrupted with his power, that he will do terrible things just to assert his power, and keep hold of it. This reminds me of many political movements in which people were killed in very gruesome, public ways, in order to demonstrate the power of the authority over the people. This demonstration frightens people into obedience.
ReplyDeleteAlso there was one part where it said "Dimly he remembered something Simon had said to him once, by the rocks" (172), after talking about Jack and his tribe. what is this referring to?
“Piggy's arms and legs twitched a bit, like a pig's after it has been killed.”(181)
ReplyDeletethis quote stood out two me because I think the way Golding described how Piggy reacted before he died has a deeper meaning. I was not surprised on how the author portrayed Piggy’s reaction before death as pig because, they have very distinct similarities. Such, as piggy is very strong minded but he can’t express his ideas in assertive way and the boys see him as push-over. Just, like a pig a pig squeals and runs from the hunter but, cannot control the fact that he is going to be killed. This similarity demonstrates how the boys have a control over Piggy and the pig. Also, another similarity would be they both demonstrate weakness. Piggy throughout the whole book was constantly teased and never listened to and eventually being killed by the hunters because he felt intimated by them. Also, he never stood up for himself because, the lack of support from Ralph. Just, like the pig who had nowhere to run and ended up in the savage hands of Jack and his tribe. The last similarity both Piggy and the Pig is having a feminine role. Piggy always quoted his aunt in situations where the boy’s needed structure. While the pig represented a feminine -type role in the book to substitute the lack of females in the island. Such as, the pig feeding her piglets or the references of the boys calling the pig her.
"Savages appeared, painted out of recognition, edging round the ledge toward the neck" (175)
ReplyDeleteThis quote is significant because you can really tell the difference in the two groups by how Ralph calls them savages even though they used to be apart of their group just days ago. Also I think that other boys being "painted out of recognition" symbolizes how the forest is like taking over them and changing them in to different people and becoming one with the island.
I thought it was interested how you thought that the forrest was taking over the boys rather than the boys taking over the forrest. Usually it is people who take over nature and not the other way around, but I don't think that the forrest is changing the boys. I think that it is giving them free spirits and changing them however, I also think that the boys are taking over the land because at one point in the chapter (I could not find the page) Jack says that Ralph and his men have one side of the island and he has the other. This shows that they are not really becoming one with the island rather than trying to take over it and better themselves, but in the process of doing this because more accustom to nature because they have no choice.
Delete
ReplyDelete“The rock struck Piggy a glancing blow from chin to knee; the conch exploded into a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist. Piggy, saying nothing, with no time for even a grunt, traveled through the air sideways from the rock, turning over as he went” (181).
I think that it is significant that the conch and Piggy died at the same time. I think that this represents that Piggy had the power all along. I think that the only reason Ralph stayed separated from the rest of the boys was because he had Piggy’s support. Piggy was the one who really knew what was right for the island, and even though it was not obvious, his ideas were being put into Ralph’s head. Also it could also symbolize the lost hope. I think that since the conch fell and shattered, it may make the reality of Piggy and Simon’s deaths more present than they would be without the breaking of the Conch. I think that the conch represented all that was good with the society. It gave each boy a chance to share his own voice when he wanted to, and it represented order and hope. Without the conch I think that it will give Jack exactly what he was looking for, it will give him the opportunity to take over.
Quote:
ReplyDelete"Jack wrenched free and swung at Ralph with his spear. By common consent they were using the spears as sabers now, no longer daring the lethal point"(177).
Response:
I found this quote very interesting because it highlights the little bit of humanity Jack and Ralph have left in themselves. They start fighting at each other and in the quote the key word i want to point out is "saber." Golding uses the word saber as a way to say express that Jack and Ralph weren't trying to kill each other. It says by common consent and by this it mean Golding is trying to say how they remember what they did to Simon and so they could not actually spear at each other. In conclusion i found it interesting how they actually did not manage to kill each other and for a moment i thought Jack was trying to control himself but then later Piggy ends up dying and they try to kill Ralph and it surprised me. But my question is... Is Jack somewhat bipolar? because at one point he is not a killer, but then he ends up having something to do with piggy's death.
First off I second your feeling of this quote being interesting and secondly I don't think that Jack is bipolar. I think that Jack is just doing what he knows best, Hunting. Jack's main purpose was to secure power and leadership and when he sees a threat he tackles it. I think the boys just got very over the top and it blew up into this giant fight. Also Roger kills piggy not Jack but I do think his actions lead to the death of Piggy overall.
DeleteSimren, I dont think Jack is bipolar, i just believe that he is constantly switching into a savage, and then his original self- which would most likely explain the change in behavior. Of course, his savage living is more dominant at the moment, but his original being is almost holding on for dear life until Jack becomes a complete savage.
Delete"Now the painted group felt the otherness of Samneric, felt the power in their own hands."
ReplyDeleteI think this quote is essential to the explanation of the book and how all of these events escalated into acts of violence. The key theme in this story is Power. If you think about it ever act of savageness was caused by the feeling that someone wasn't powerful enough and was hungry for it since they came onto the island. I think this quote shows how Golding is telling the author what the problem with actual society is. This island was corrupted with the idea of politics and government which is associated with the idea of Power, from the beginning. Think about the first real conflict, the boys ability to speak. When you have the conch you are sovereign and powerful because you are being heard out. The conch shows power and organization or civilization. When the conch breaks Piggy dies and organization is broke. Another way that power is sewed into this story is the idea of Jack's dominance. Hunting is a big issue in this story and Jack feels that it is necessary. Jack hunts to show his power over another living creature because he feels that he should have been chief. I feel the reason that we are reading this book is because it is relevant to society now. As of this generations, many acts of grand violence, genocide and war have been committed and as many feel that the true morals have been lost in a first publishing of a classic story. This book shows how minimalistic society can get and how we all try to live fair lives when we're all seeking power and approval.
"'See? See? That's what you'll get! I meant that! There isn't a tribe for you anymore! The conch is gone-' He ran forward, stooping. 'I'm chief!'"(181)
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me because it shows how mad Jack has gone with his power. It's crazy how Jack started off as the kid that no one voted for, and the kid who could only control his choir, but now he's got almost the whole island on his side. He doesn't even stop to think, "well gosh, I just had some kid killed", he just continues to assert his power. It's sickening to see him so blind with rage, and the surge of feigned masculinity(if I can even call it that) as he speaks to everyone. It reminds me of Machiavelli's "The Prince" in which he theorizes that force should be used when necessary against the people. Jack is asserting his power over everyone by making examples of the enemies. It scares me also, because he's fallen into a dark realm that will be difficult, and probably impossible to climb out of. I don't see Jack making a positive come back, but he's proven to be unpredictable. Does his unpredictability actually translate into predictability?
The lint that stood out to me was the line "don't be silly" (172 and 175) Ralph says this twice in this chapter and both times it is used to resurrect Ralph's old power. Ralph's power comes from his confidence, which slowly dwindles as the book goes on and from his adultness. The first time the other boys see him is in the beginning when he blows the conch he is seen as an adult. and when this become more complicated and he must actually make decisions he turns back into a child. When Ralph says this line he gets a little bit of his power back, by suggesting that something is "silly" he is saying that there is a write and a wrong, there are impossible things. when the semi democracy government is lost so is the idea of reason and rationality, this is what allows Jack to take control. by saying this line and stating that there is something that is silly and impossible Ralph is regaining power.
ReplyDelete"See? See? That's what you'll get! I meant that! There isn't a tribe for you anymore! The conch is gone-"
ReplyDeleteHe ran forward stooping.
"I'm chief!" (181)
Okay, at this point Jacks (as well as the other boys, but mainly Jack) thirst for power has gotten completely out of hand. Someone was KILLED, and the fact that there isn't any shock or any type of feeling at all towards what just happened is insane. There was literally no other reaction but even more anger. Now that Jack got rid of someone who was "always in his way" of power, hes taking complete control of everything. Just wow.