1) Ask (3) questions from the chapter that you'd really like answered.
2) Write a response, choosing a line and explaining it's significance to you. Please remember: no plot re-cap! Share your analysis, make connections to the world, ask questions, discuss imagery, and deepen your thinking.
3) Don't forget to respond to someone else's post!
3) Don't forget to respond to someone else's post!
Questions:
ReplyDelete1)Golding named the chapter, “The Shell and the Glasses” what does the shell and glasses symbolize? What does the title signify?
2)Why is Piggy trying to justify Simon's murder? How come Piggy is not feeling guilty for Simon’s death? How are Ralph and Piggy’s reaction towards Simon’s death different than Jack and his tribes? Did Jack and his tribe realize that they murdered Simon?
3)Why are the members of Jack’s tribe called, “savages”? What does this signify?
Response:
“He was a chief now in truth; and he made stabbing motions with his spear. From his left hand dangles Piggy’s broken glasses” (168)
This quote really stood out to me because it shows that Piggy’s glasses are now the most essential object on the island. In the beginning of the book, the conch symbolized society and uniformity and now the conch has lost its power and that shows that the island has become uncivilized. Whoever had the conch had power over the others but now possessing the glasses gave authority over others. The glasses now symbolize power on the island and whoever has them is the most powerful. In the end of the chapter, Jack steals Piggy’s glasses, which indicates that Jack is now the Chief and the most dominant on the island also Ralph is kind of the outcast. Now Ralph can’t even make a fire because he doesn't possess Piggy’s glasses and without the fire they can't be rescued.
You're definitely right about all this, but it's interesting to look at what Piggy's glasses or the source of power (fire)is going to be used for. Obviously Ralph and his crew wants to use it for the rational reason, to be rescued. But evidence has shown all Jack would use it for is for the cooking of meat. Because of this I think Piggy's glasses in the hands of Jack really isn't any power at all. It just takes away power from Ralph to pursue the most rational objectives.
DeleteI completely agree. Not only do Ralph and Piggy have no hope is starting a fire, they also aren't going to get rescued. Also, Piggy is practically blind without his glasses. Because of this he doesn't serve much purpose, he cant do physical activity because of his asthma, and he cant see. I wonder if Ralph and his group will end up going to Jack and staying under his leadership.
DeleteQuestions:
ReplyDelete1) Why does Jack beat up and tie up Wilfred?
2) Why does Golding refer to Jack as Chief?
3) Now that Jack's group has the glasses, will the boys finally get rescued since they have more boys to actually watch over the fire?
Response:
"I'm frightened. Of us. I want to go home. Oh God, I want to go home" -Ralph (pg 157)
This quote stood out to me because Ralph has realized what the boys have turned into. Whereas Piggy insists that Simon's death was accidental, Ralph knows it was murder. Ralph is frightened and scared because if the boys did what they did to Simon who was completely innocent, they could do it to anyone else including Ralph. At the same time, he's scared of the boys because he now knows what the boys are capable of, they are capable of murder. Even Piggy has transformed into a monster with the rest of the boys because he denies his participation in the murder and he strongly believes that Simon "hadn't no business crawling like that out of the dark. He was batty. He asked for it" (pg 157). This really sets the boys apart here because while Ralph feels completely guilty and feels really bad, Piggy won't accept any guilt for what had happened.
I think this isolation of Ralph from the other boys throughout admittance of his guilt is really interesting. It is also pivital to the politics of the island. I would like to know if any of the other boys feel any type of guilt for Simon's death, or are they all as indignant and in denial as Piggy.
DeleteThe realization that Simon made earlier in the story seemed to have cost him his life and Ralph just made the same realization. They both realized that the true beast is actually themselves. This idea brought Simon the utmost fear and something very similar is displayed in your quote. I agree that this idea puts Ralph in real danger will affect him mentally for very long time. Piggy has found a way to trick himself into thinking it is not true, if Ralph wants to keep a sane mind, he will need to do the sam thing.
DeleteWell it is obvious that Ralph lost his power and control over the others, and that the kids choose Jack over Ralph in what could be considered the second election. therefore when everyone supported and started following Jack, Ralph and his conch lost their significance on the island.
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ReplyDeleteEven after the group kills Simon because they thought he was the beast, they cannot believe the beast is truly gone. They assumed that it must have been a disguise. Why does the group continue to fear the beast? Can they not imagine a life without the beast?
ReplyDeleteSamneric are the only ones to stay in the group with Ralph and Piggy despite some "useless" littluns. Why are Samneric the only ones to stay behind? What do they in Ralph that the others do not? Is it possible they cold live a life separate from that of Jack Merridew?
Now that Jack has one of the most powerful weapons on the island, fire. Will the others be forced to join his group to stay alive? What do they fear that Jack will do with his absolute leadership?
"He's a proper chief, isn't he?... He's going to take us hunting." (159) This quote stood out to me because it shows how easily the group has been influenced by Jack in the time he has become chief. This quote from Roger expresses the truth behind the fundamental differences between Jack's and Ralph's leaderships. While Ralph's was centered around rescue, Jack's has been a devotion to happiness and safety. This surprised me because Jack has found a way to allow these children to forget their homes and focus more in the moment. Jack himself seems to have forgotten the idea of rescue and has in many ways given up the hope of it. This form of leadership, of governing has been oblivious to attempting to find ways to get back to their normal lives. Golding uses the word proper to describe Jack's leadership. This word signifies not only the idea that Jack is supplying the group with safety and security that they had always yearned for but also the idea that Ralph was unable to do the same things. Robert replies to Roger statement by saying that Jack will be taking them hunting, something that Ralph was never able to for them. This is also very important because it shows that while these children have been forced to endure a lot and have become wiser due to it they are still very childlike. They search for things that affect them immediately rather than the things that need to progress and mature but will pay off more in the end. The children will get something immediately after they go hunting, meat, although when they make fires they cannot see the direct output of it, rescue and therefore abandon the idea all together.
I think the group continues to fear the beast because if there is no beast, then there is no purpose to their actions. The beast not existing would reveal the bloody dance as an action done out of savageness, instead of “protection” from the beast. I agree that Jack’s leadership finds a way to allow the children to forget home. Adding a new insight, I believe a main theme for the story is the loss of innocence. The littluns are losing their manners and conventional ways to behave in society. They are being sucked into savageness by Jack’s tribe. Once someone is exposed to savageness, will their identity change forever? Also, I disagree with Jack forgetting and giving up hope on rescue. He is aware of rescue. I think he purposely does not want to be rescued, so that he can continue his savageness on the island. If he is brought back to society, he would have to constrain himself from doing what his savage instincts urge him to do. I can tell Jack enjoys his savage leadership on the island. You make a good point, though. At first, I thought he gave up hope on rescue as well. But as the story develops, we can see his savageness taking over.
DeleteThe glasses represent a vital part of the community, the ability to be rescued, so by taking the glasses they are taking the hope from the other tribe, did Jack intend to harm the other tribe, or just benefit his own?
ReplyDeleteNext to the conch, the glasses are the most important part of the tribe’s existence; will they attempt to take the conch next?
How will the isolation of Ralph’s tribe and Simon’s death converge to take a toll on their mental health?
“A savage raised his hand and the chief turned a bleak, painted face toward him.” (160)
I chose this quote because Jack was identified as chief, and the other boys are identified as savages. This term used to identify rank is very interesting. It is almost as though this tribe has gone through the complete transformation into savages. I found the term interesting because, it appeared as though Jack was the person to proclaim himself as chief and the rest of the boys as savages, when in actuality Jack is the most savage boy on the island. His influence is one of savagery and brutality. He has completely forgotten about his previous life, as he has been completely consumed by the island.
I agree with you! I found it strange that Jack addresses himself as the chief and he calls everyone else "savages", when in reality he is the most savage on the island. I wonder if he will realize that later on in the book. In addition, do the boys know what savage is? Do they mind being called that? Also, I agree that Jack has forgotten his past life and his civilized behavior. Will he ever realize that he has changed?
DeleteI totally agree with you Jake, even though Jack is the biggest savage of them all, he refers to his group members as savages and ignores the fact that he was the first one to actually be completely consumed by the island. Jack is now hired him self in the rank and considers himself chief but will his savages stand up to him and tell him that he has changed, or will they just also be completely consumed by the island also?
Delete1. Has their conscience start to process Simon's death?
ReplyDeleteIn the beginning of the chapter there was an awkward setting and Simon's name seems to be the forbidden word, they are trying to forget what happened. “That was murder" said ralph and it stirred this sudden unease in Piggy, and he quickly told him to be quite. Even though they act like salvages and may prentend to live by no rules they still have this small feeling of guilt. They even consider the fact that Simon is alive and only pretending to be dead. Even though they didn't actually participate in Piggy's death, they watched and did nothing.
2. Now that Jack is the new Chief what problem does that cause on the island?
Wel, now that Jack is chief it seems like his reign of terror has begun. He tied a kid and left him in terrible conditions for hours just because he got mad. This doesn't seem like the personality and choices a rational leader would do. Golding describes him sitting down and you could tell he is nothing but trouble. Golding even calls the kids or his followers "savages".
3. How has the division between the character complicated things?
Well, now that there are two tribes, Ralph's tribe are afraid of Jack and his followers, while Jack wants to see Ralph and the three people with him basically and knowing what Jack is capable of maybe even dead. This also complicates their chances of being found because Jack doesn't seem to care, while for Ralph and the others it seems like an impossible task.
-Do the “savages” know they killed Simon?
ReplyDelete-Does Jack know he killed Simon, and that there is no beast?
-Did anyone in Jack’s tribe hear Simon say the beast is only a dead man?
“Half-relieved, half-daunted by the implication of further terrors, the savages murmured again.” (161) This is when the boys in Jack’s tribe murmurs after Jack assures everyone they did not kill the beast. The murmuring of the savages represents uncertainty of their actions and Jack’s authority. I can tell that whenever Jack does something savage, he is not completely pleased with himself. The boys are relieved they did not kill a human. Do they all secretly know they killed Simon? They seem to be guilty of their actions and daunted by the possibility of any other bad consequences their bloody dance may have caused. This shows the boys’ inner fight within themselves. They are trying to fight their human characteristic of savageness, and hoping they did not do anything savage. Like Jack, we sometimes assure ourselves we did not do anything horrible. And if we did, we regret it. Sometimes savageness is let out and we cannot control it.
Are they trying to fight their savageness? To me, Jack does seem to be uncertain about his actions, as does the group, but it does not seem that they are trying to fight it. They may not agree with everything Jack says but since they are scared of him, they won't admit it. I am sure if they realized that they actually did kill a real human and not some shape-shifting beast, they would flip out. They would probably abandon Jack, which is why he is keeping up this charade.
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ReplyDeleteQuestions:
ReplyDeleteDoes Jack only want the fire for his meat and feasts, or does the tribe still have the hope for rescue?
What does Jack tying up WIlfred and beating him signify after the murder of Simon?
What is the significance that they thought the hunters were trying to steal the conch back? Hasn't it been said that Jack doesn't care about it anymore?
Response:
"He ceased to work at his tooth and sat still, assimilating the possibilities of irresponsible authority" (160). I found this interesting because this displays another moment of coming of age. As children we learn from what we see or what we are told. Our parents are the authority and for the most part as young children whatever they say is right and whatever they want is for the best. This isn't true in all cases, but for the most part it makes sense. This is a moment of rebellious thinking for Roger. He is realizing that the higher authority may not be what's best for everyone. He has lived to see what is wrong, right or rational and he is challenging (in his mind) Jack's authority. It shows a hint of hope for the boys. It shows there is still a hint of humanity left in them, and not just savagery. It's like what John Locke said, that rebellion is justifiable when the authority is taking the rights away from the people. Jack is beating Wilfred, an innocent child, for what? In pursuit to relinquish his own personal shame and humility? Roger now knows that Jack is doing wrong, and he most likely isn't the only one. In history we learned that change can start with a small group of people. This leads me to believe that humans in general do prefer order and fairness, they just may not know it at first. Humans learn and what they learn allows them to prosper. It is part of human nature. Sadly today the general will is not always able to rebel. The boys are a demonstration of this aspect of human nature, specifically this passage with Roger.
Does Jack only want the fire for his meat and feasts, or does the tribe still have the hope for rescue?
DeleteI think that originally Jack wanted, and was counting on Ralph keeping the fire going so he only stole some fire but not the glasses, but now that he has killed Simon I think he sees it as an irreversible point, the boys have broken the last boundary of their old life and Jack at least does not care about going home, but i don't think the other boys see it like that.
I also agree about your quote showing coming of age and I think it is interesting that Golding chooses Rodger as the character to demonstrate this.
1) Why does Golding refer to Jack’s group as tribe, and Jack as Chief?
ReplyDelete2) The boys assumed that Simon was the beast when he came out of the forest therefore they killed him. Why do they still fear the beast even after they killed “him”? Did they know it wasn’t Simon?
3) Why does Piggy still think that Jack comes to attack them in order to take the conch?
“The chief’s blush was hidden by the white and red clay. Into his uncertain silence the tribe spilled their murmur once more.” (161)
When I read this quote, I re-read it to make sure I thought I read it correctly. This sentence sounds like it was taken out of a book about Native American tribes, not a group of young kids trying to survive and have “fun” on a stranded island. Jack is explained as a chief, not a leader a chief. This signifies Jack’s rule and power over the group/ tribe. A chief in a tribe is usually the eldest and most intelligent of them all. However, Jack isn’t the most intelligent, rather the most animalistic one who no one wants to mess with. He is also described with having red and white clay smudged all over his face. This not only shows Jack’s obsession with being a hunter, but his transformation from a civilized boy to a power hungry boy who hasn’t ever seen law. Not only does this paint show a loss of civility but it also covers up Jack’s emotions, like blushing. He doesn’t want anyone to know his true feelings, rather, that he is a strong powerful leader.
1. Why do they still fear the beast if they killed the beast?
ReplyDelete2. By stealing Piggy's glasses, does Jack think that he is getting closer to defeating Ralph's tribe? Does he want to kill Piggy?
3. Why does Jack keep trying to steal he conch? Is he that caught up on trying to "end" civilization?
"That was Simon."....
"That was murder."
"You stop it!" said Piggy shrilly. "What good you're doing talking like that?" p. 156
I find it funny how Piggy keeps on denying his own role in Simon's death. Although they did not actually kill him, they did indeed help and the fact that they did not even try to stop Jack, is just as bad as killing him. I feel disappointed in Piggy. He always seemed to be the most honest and knowledgeable of the group, and when something really horrible happens, he cannot admit his mistakes. I understand how bad the situation is and he is still taking time to process what actually happened, but at the same time, Ralph is able to admit it. I can sympathize more with Ralph because he can still admit what he has done and also is trying to comfort other member's of the group at the same time. Piggy just whines nonstop and is always putting Ralph on the spot, telling him to act more like a leader and what to do. If he does not like something, why doesn't he try t be leader and see how hard it is!
I agree with you because all the boys have turned into monsters and only Ralph seems to notice and realize it because he admits and owns up to his participation in Simon's death. Piggy would definitely be the character that I'd think is innocent and wouldn't hurt a fly but he proved me wrong and even worse, he couldn't even admit to what he did. I feel that once the boys are rescued, if they even are going to be since rescue now lies in the hands of Jack, that everyone is going to realize who they had all turned into and what they had done.
DeleteI agree with you, I had such high expectations for Piggy's character, but when faced with a legitimate problem he cracked under pressure. Obviously he is going through a phase of denial, but at the same time Ralph was able to get through it and focus on the reality of the situation, so why cant Piggy do the same? Ralph is showing how good of a leader he actually is by taking care of the other boys even though he himself is suffering with them. The fact that Piggy is so caught up in his won problems and is trying to deny everything they did is just annoying.
DeleteAgree.
DeleteI was shocked to see Piggy talk like that to Ralph. In the beginning of the book he was the character I felt most empathy for because of the way he was treated. Now, as it shows in this line he says something Jack would probably say. You see what effect the boys have had on each other and some if not most of the outcomes are not pleasant to see at all. At first I just thought Piggy was saying anything just to get Ralph to not blame himself and not feel guilty, now I feel that he really did mean what he said. As Alyssa and Gabby have said Piggy is in denial of what he and Ralph have done.
The boys have definitely changed and switched places within each other the beginning of the book till now.
1)Why did Jack beat up Wilfred?
ReplyDelete2)Why did the Jack go after Piggy's glasses and not anything else? What do they represent?
3)Why does Golding start referring to Jack as "the chief" and his boys as the "savages" or "tribe"?
"'He came- disguised. He may come again even thohugh we gave him the head of our kill to eat. So watch; and be careful'." (185).
This quote stood out to me because of the way Jack spoke of Simon's murder as if they had killed the beast. It's interesting that Jack and all the other boys seems fairly aware that they murdered someone or something, yet they are so afraid of that fact that they are telling themselves not only that it was the beast, but that they did not even really kill it. I think the reason the boys are so attached to Jack as a leader is for the same reason they initially liked Ralph; he is able to lie to make things sound better than they are. This shows that it is human nature to want to feel safe and protected by a leader. Inside, every boy including Jack knows that they killed one of their own, but that thought frightens them so much that they are able to convince themselves that it didn't actually happen. I think Jack is using the looming prospect of the beast as a way to keep all the boys in check. He gives them protection from the beast and in return he gets to be the chief.
I agree with you because all the boys have turned into monsters and only Ralph seems to notice and realize it because he admits and owns up to his participation in Simon's death. Piggy would definitely be the character that I'd think is innocent and wouldn't hurt a fly but he proved me wrong and even worse, he couldn't even admit to what he did. I feel that once the boys are rescued, if they even are going to be since rescue now lies in the hands of Jack, that everyone is going to realize who they had all turned into and what they had done.
DeleteWoah sorry my reply belongs to Jaad's post
DeleteI agree,
DeleteSomething I don't understand is whether or not the boys want there to be a beast. In some ways it feels like Jack and his tribe depend on there being a beast, without it they have no reason to be all dressed up, hiding in their cave, doing their dance, hunting every day for meat. At they same time they fear the beast immensely, they now avoid the mountain top all together because they are so intimidated. I would be curious to see what Golding has to say about the relationship between the beast or the idea of the beast and the boys. Did he base off of any relationship in real life, or is it totally unique?
I agree with you because all the boys have turned into monsters and only Ralph seems to notice and realize it because he admits and owns up to his participation in Simon's death. Piggy would definitely be the character that I'd think is innocent and wouldn't hurt a fly but he proved me wrong and even worse, he couldn't even admit to what he did. I feel that once the boys are rescued, if they even are going to be since rescue now lies in the hands of Jack, that everyone is going to realize who they had all turned into and what they had done.
ReplyDeleteWoah sorry my reply belongs to Jaad's post
DeleteQuestions:
ReplyDelete1. What is Golding trying to say when all the boy's in Jack's tribe refer to him as 'Chief'?
2. Why are Sam and Eric the only two biguns to stay with Ralph and Piggy?
3. Why does Golding write a part of this chapter through Roger's perspective? What is the deal with Roger?
Response:
"He [Ralph] came out now out of the coconut trees, limping, dirty , with dead leaves hanging from his shock of yellow hair. One eye was a slit in his puffy cheek..." (155) I think that this description is very interesting, it shows the change that Ralph has gone through since he first landed on the island. His hair is no longer something pretty, it is a burden for him, he constantly has to move it so he can see. It is interesting to compare this description and that from the beginning of the story, "You could see now that he might make a boxer, as far as width and heaviness of shoulder went, but there was a mildness about his mouth and eyes that proclaimed no devil...[he] laughed delightedly again and stood on his head." (10) When was the last time Ralph stood on his head? It is clear that Ralph's time on the island has not been for the better, but for the worse.
I like the comparison between Ralph's description in the beginning and now-I don't think I realized how much he has changed, just in appearance, and what that says about him. I think it is also interesting to see how Ralph is one of the last, if not the last, person to maintain innocence and for the most part, strong morals. The line about "his mouth and eyes that proclaimed no devil" was perhaps a foreshadowing of the events to come, and how Ralph, despite being a human (who in Golding's opinion appears savage and violent) would somehow remain un-corrupted. I wonder how he has not changed like the others.
Delete1. What is the significance of having both the conch and the glasses in the title?
ReplyDelete2. Why did the author refer to Jack as 'chief'?
3. Why does Piggy not have a problem with Simon's murder?
"I'm frightened. Of us. I want to go home. Oh God, I want to go home" (p.157)
This line stood out to me because it shows just how young these boys really are. Throughout the story they are projected as being so mature, creating their own civilization on an island and forming their own government structure. However, we forget just how young these boys really are, that they miss their old lives and families. Ralph realizes how bad of a situation they are in, that the boys have become cannibals and lost all sense of integrity. He realizes that if they are willing to do something like that to Simon, a boy who never did anything to them, that they would be willing to do the same to each other, or worse, to him. Ralph fears the further deterioration of their society, and that soon there may be little left to rescue.
I agree in that the boys are forced into a position where they must act very mature,and this line recalls to us the fact that they are only children. I think it is interesting that Ralph does realize that what happened with Simon was not an accident, but was full blown savagery. On the other hand, Piggy, who seems very clever will not admit to himself or anyone else that the boys did actually murder Simon. Although he has seen the damage the boys can do he is still too naive to believe, even, int eh possibility of murder.
Delete1. Why do Ralph and the other boys not give in to Jack? Has Ralph become power hungry?
ReplyDelete2. Do the boys with Jack know that the 'beast' they killed was Simon? Do they know that it/he is dead?
3. Why are any of the 'littluns' still on Ralph's side if Jack has the meat, and fun?
Twice, within a few minutes, Ralph completely loses track of his train of thought. While talking about the importance of the fire the twins ask "'Well-what is the good?' Ralph tried indignantly to remember. There was something good about a fire. Something overwhelmingly good."' While Ralph talks about the fire "at the moment of greatest passion and conviction, that curtain flapped in his head and he forgot what he had been driving at" (163). I think the fact that Ralph keeps forgetting the point that he is so fervent about, signifies that he is either doubting himself, and/or he is tired of having to explain, and reiterate his beliefs. i think the fact that almost all of the boys went to Jack's side, makes Ralph feel that what he believes on is in fact wrong. In addition I think he is tired of having to lead the boys, and maybe it makes sense that Jack came along as the stronger leader. Jack, like any good leader has confidence in his decisions, whereas Ralph, who doubts himself loses followers. I think doubt is a very strong weapon, and can pressure both leaders and followers into changing their opinions.
I agree however, I think one can draw the conclusion that Ralph is weary of being on the island and is beginning to loose sight of the significance of resources and what was once significant to him before. He is loosing hope, in my opinion of rescue-which makes sense because things have only gone downhill for him, with the violence, the beast, the separation etc.
DeleteWhy is it that Jack must solve everything through violence?
ReplyDeleteWhy was Wilfred beat up?
Is the focus on fire symbolic of a larger significance in human life? The glasses give power to fire(which is why I'm not asking for the significance of the glasses)
I found this chapter to be my favorite of the book so far. It is so well done, everything is shown and not told, such as the line "he was ambushed by sleep" instead of saying he fell asleep. I also like how there was the switch to now Jack being named Chief and the rest of the members of his tribe as savages. I also found it interesting how, now that the boys are dispersed, Samneric do not really appear to be samneric anymore but Sam and Eric. You see the boys bicker about something they are discussing and true opinions are shared, publicly. The quote that I chose was the supposing game "Supposing they could be transported home by jet, then before morning they would land at that big airfield in Wiltshire. They would go by car; no, for things to be perfect they would go by train; all the way down to Devon and take that cottage again. Then at the foot of the farden the wild ponies would come and look over the wall..."(164). I liked this quote because we, as the readers learn more and more about Ralph's background and living environment. I think this quote also shows us that Ralph has changed from when he first came on the island. He is must less optimistic now, to the point where he has lost hope for plausible rescue situations and dreams of a perfect escapes. However, this could also just be evident of the fact that he has been on the island for a long time and is just simply homesick. On another note, I do not see why the boys must be so violent. I wish Golding would give us more background information on Jack as he does for Ralph because I would like to know why Jack is the person that he has become and what has forced him to act this way? Was he abused? Is he just a natural bully? What will happen if the unnecessary violence continues?
Does Piggy really think that Simon's death was an accident and that it was okay for it to happen?
ReplyDeleteGolding made Piggy refer to Ralph as Chief and have Jack and his boys refer to him as chief as well. What was Golding's intentions for doing that?
Does Jack even care about getting rescued anymore at this point?
"I'm frightened. Of us. I want to go home. Oh God, I want to go home" (157).
Most of what Ralph said in this chapter stood out to me because it seems like he finally is starting to open his eyes and realize what's been going on, especially when he said this line in particular. I think that he finally realizes that Simon was right and they were the beast, nobody else had the qualities of a beast except for them. They were the only ones to blame which is why Ralph feels so bad about Simon's death. I got my question answered, Simon's death did effect one of the boys and it's obviously Ralph. It's sad to see that it took someone's death to get him to realize their actions and what they became has taken control of who they are. He says, "I'm frightened. Of Us," which shows he's scared of what he and the other boys became. He knows that they are all young and they turned into savage boys that can commit any actions at this point without even realizing the outcome at the time. The fact he wants to go home shows the drastic change from his character at the beginning till now. He sees that now being alone on the island isn't as fun and that he need grown ups, he needs that feeling he had a home, because it was definitely better than the life he is living now. He's pleading at this point to go home which makes me think he wants to put all of this behind him and just get away from the island. He can no longer take being there especially after Simon's death even more when he carries that guilt with him.
1. Does Jack realize Piggy's glasses are broken, or is he just proud that he has taken them, and doesn't care at this point about using them for the fire?
ReplyDelete2. What binds Samneric to Ralph's tiny group?
3. How many of Jack's group are doubting his unchallenged authority?
"He's going to take us hunting...Roger, sitting on the very edge of the cliff, looked somberly back at the island as he worked with his fingers at a loose tooth." (page 223)
This quote immediately stood out to me because of the juxtaposition of Roger's loose tooth and the violent and savage customs Jack's group has adopted. They mention using rocks to kill people right before this quote, as well, and then Roger and Robert think about how fun it will be to go hunting with Jack later. I think Roger's loose tooth is natural, and not a reslt of him getting it in the mouth or anything--it is simply something that happens, naturally, to all kids. This age where kids lose teeth is usually associated with genuine innocence, and Roger's loose tooth reminds the reader of his youth. It seems to me that Golding puts that line in there, next to lines mentioning violece, to show that even the youngest of us are capable of becoming overwhelmed, in a sense, by our savage nature. Maybe it is not so much overwhelmed as re-taken, because I think it is also part of Golding's message that all people are naturally savage, and it is only our upbringing that teaches us to be a certain way. To me, the book is showing, in this line, how natural it is for man to be violent and animalstic--as natural as losing a tooth.
I agree, Golding uses symbolism to their still child-like state through the loose tooth. The combination of that and the fact that he mentions it right after hunting shows the fact that these boys were forced into an adult world, without the training or experience required to do so. Adding on to your response, I feel this is very symbolic for their general state of loss of innocence that reoccurs often throughout this story.
DeleteQuestions:
ReplyDelete1. Why did the boys choose to beat up wilfred?
2. What is the significance of Jack's group having Piggy's glasses? What do they symbolize?
3. Even though simon is already dead, and they thought simon was the beast, they still believe the beast is out there. How is that significant, and why do they believe the beast isnt actually gone?
"'We'd better keep on the right side of [the beast]....You can't tell what he might do.'" pg. 146
I found this quote to be really interesting. It stood out to me because they never actually encounter the beast. They constantly seem afraid of what they cannot see, which is the child in them. They make sacrifices to this unseen, unheard force that keeps them all in check. I keep making this connection to organized religion. There is no backing to their faith, but in their time of need, they always have something, whether it makes sense or not, to rely on for answers. This is also, I feel, part of the reason that Jack's boys want the fire. They feel the need to satisfy something within them that must be satisfied by some sort of guidance that is usually filled by adults. Without structure on the island, they feel lost.
i like the connection you made to religion. They have no evidence to prove that the beast exists, yet they continue to believe it does as a place to look. They don't feel like they have a true purpose so they create one. The boys want to believe that their purpose is to defeat the beast.
Delete1) Jack's group has forgotten about getting rescued and are only focused on hunting. Now that they have the glasses Ralph will no longer be able to put up a signal fire and Jack's group is not focused on that. How will this affect their rescue efforts?
ReplyDelete2) Piggy began the book as a very moral boy. Now that he has participated in the murder of Simon what will happen to his attitude?
3) What is the significance/importance of killing Simon if they still believe that the Beast might reside in someone else?
"We'd better keep on the right side of him, anyhow. You can't tell what he might do." (146)
This quote is significant because it speaks as if the beast is still out there. Jack, being the new leader, is telling his boys that the beast is never really dead. They have never seen the beast in its true form, therefore they don't really know if it exists. I think it is significant that Golding choose to kill off Simon. Simon was always very independent and outspoken about what he thought, but he was never pushy or overbearing. To the other boys he was different. I think it's interesting that Simon was the one killed. Piggy is also different. What does this say for his future?
I do agree with your analysis of the quote, but I think this quote could be applied to Jack. In my observations I think Jack is the only real beast in the island. He has the fault that two boys were killed and that haven't been rescued from the island. Because, of his passion to kill and to have control over the island. The quote "you better keep the right side of him" can refer as you cannot upset Jack and he might lash out on you. And, "you don't know what he might do" can be referred as the fear the boys have with Jack because he has the full capacity and intentions to kill. He killed simon he could do it again with an other boy on the island.
Delete1) Why does Jack refuse to think that Simon’s murder never happened?
ReplyDelete2) Why was Wilfred punished for no reason, if the entire boy’s did something “wrong” why did Jack just took out on Wilfred?
3) What do Piggy’s glasses symbolize in this specific chapter? Especially when Jack took Piggy’s glasses on his own hands?
“The chief led then…He was chief now in truth; and he made stabbing motions with his spear. From his left hand dangle Piggy’s broken glasses. “(168)
This quote stood out to me because this is one of the various lines in the book that showed that Jack had the power in the island. And, the downfall of Ralph’s position of being leader led the consequences of being an unstable, savage, and maniacal group of boys that is known as Jack’s tribe. One of the ways that this line shows that Jack has complete power is the name change, he is now referred as “Chief”. With his new name of being chief his whole new personality comes with it. Such as being aggressive and hostile towards others since now he has the highest rank in the island. This reminded me of a character in the short story Everyday Use by Alice Walker when Dee changed her name to Wangero. And, expresses her with a new vibrant and headstrong personality. I think the significance of a name change is to express that you have shredded your old traits and developed new ones. In this case Jack emerged to this evil dictator persona. Also, not only his name change stood out to me but, the ability not to think twice on what he doing even though it will cause serious harm to the other. All, for to get what he wants towards his own advantages. Golding describes Jack in “his own truth” which means he is aware of what he is doing and doesn’t feel any type of emotions that he physically abusing a kid with a weapon and he feels like it’s a type of accomplishment to get Piggy’s glasses.
1) why does Golding say that both Piggy and Ralph are blind?
ReplyDelete2) Why did Golding write "they saw a triangle of startling pink, dart out, pass along his (Jack's) lips, and vanish" (160) what is the significance of the tongue being pink?
3) Does Ralph have any more power then piggy now?
"No! How could we-kill-it?" Half relieved, half daunted by the implication of further terrors, the savages murmured again" (160-161) This quote really stood out to me because it is one of the only times that the group of "savages" actually shows and realizes their need for the beast. The beast is what unites the group and what gives Jack his power. Jack used the fear of the idea of the beast to bring the hunters together in the first place and to justify the violent acts that he later preformed. without the beast Jack will be seen as a bad leader and the true dictator that he is because just like before with his chorus there is no consequence for not listening to him.
Questions:
ReplyDelete1.) If only piggy's glasses were taken why does the authir have both the conch and the glasses in the title?
2.)Why is Jack now considered the chief?
3.) Why does piggy play off Simon's death being murder and say it was an accident?
Quote:
"He was chief now in truth; and he made the stabbing motions with his spear. From his left hand dangled Piggy's broken glasses" (168).
Response:
Piggy's glasses, a key asset in creating a power. Piggy's glasses were used to make a fire and if you have the ability to make a fire, you have the ability to signal for ships to come and help you. I believe that fire is somewhat hope that keeps the group of people alive. They believe in fire and they think with it being lighted up it will attract rescue. And so this fire can be also used as a power because if you have the power you have the peoples hope and they can really trust you if you have the ability to make the fire. So that is why Jack is referred to chief in the quote above he has piggy's glasses he has the power to make the fire and keep hope, he is the one with the power. Piggy's broken glasses are power. Jack is the chief and he holds the power!
Why out of all people did they now choose Wilfred to be punished?
ReplyDeleteWhat do Piggy's glasses really symbolize since they are mentioned almost in every chapter?
Why do Jack and his hunters attack the others?
"I'm frightened. Of us. I want to go home. Oh God, I want to go home" (157)
This quote is really significant because from the beginning i have been thinking that the beast is them. They have become so savage without realizing and the climax of their behavior was when they all murdered Simon. This is also one of the moments where Ralph says he is frightened, he was always very optimistic about getting rescued and now it's come to the point that he's had enough. He's frightened of these savage people and he wants to go home where its safe. I also realized that in the beginning of the book, first it was Piggy who was scared of them being stuck on this island and Ralph wasn't worried. Now, its the complete opposite and we can see that Piggy matured a lot and learned a lot on this island. I also wonder: Are they going to get rescued?
1. What did Wilfred do to have made Jack beat him up?
ReplyDelete2. Does Jack not realize that they killed Simon or is he playing dumb?
3. Why does Jack solve everything using violence? why couldn't he have just ask Ralph for help?
“’-and then, the beast might try to come in. You remember how he crawled-‘. The semicircle shuddered and muttered in agreement” (160).
It’s funny how the kids are avoiding the fact that they actually killed Simon and not a beast. They are convinced that what they did was actually right and they did a good cause. They don’t want to seem scared in front of Jack because he might beat them up if they get him mad. Maybe that’s what Wilfred did; he might have tried to reason with Jack and ended up getting beat up. As a result no one is willing to stand up and reason with Jack because something bad might happen to them. Jack has become a beast himself; like a dictator.
In response to your third question, i think that Jack wants to prove that he is strong, and violence is the only way he sees that he can do that. He wants to be looked up to as a chief and if he is weak than he will not get the respect he wishes to have. I also think that Jack does not have enough mental strength, so it results in him relying on physical strength to get others to fear him. He would not go to ask Ralph for help because if he did, than he would be loosing some of his pride. When Jack walked away from the boys in the beginning, it was a very prideful moment for him, because it was him sending the message that he wanted to be a leader, and if he couldn't there then he would leave and become a leader somewhere else. If Jack went back to Ralph, it would show that Jack could not survive without him, and he needs the help. This would also show Jack's weaknesses, which he does not want anyone to see.
Delete1) Why is Ralph the only one showing guilt for their actions towards Simon? Although they may not have known what was going on in the moment, does make an excuse for not regretting actions? Is it okay for them not to be guilty?
ReplyDelete2) Why do Sam and Erik keep repeating “we left early” on page 158? Are they trying to hide something? If so, what?
3) On page 165, Sam and Erik are referred to as different people, while up until this point, they are referred to as one person, why? Is this because Ralph wants to act as if he has more boys on his side? Or are they actually growing apart? Why does the author then a few pages later refer to them as one again?
“The chief said we had to challenge everyone” (159).
I think that the reason Jack is having them challenge everyone, even if they know very well who is coming, is to install fear in them. He is giving them direct orders and making himself have the higher power in order for them to believe that they have to stay on his good side in order to be accepted. Jack is putting fear in the boys because that is the way he knows how to lead. When he was the leader of the choirboys in the beginning, he had very strict rules to keep them in order, and he is now trying to do the same. Jack may be afraid that if he does not make the boys fear him enough to make they obey him, but not enough to scare them away, that they may run off to Ralph or begin to disrespect him. He has always wanted the power, and he wants to be treated differently. What is Jack doing to make the other boys trust him, other than hunting? He is not the only hunter, why are they all agreeing to look up to him?
1. Why does Piggy feel that his cracked glasses made him not see what was really going on in the circle?
ReplyDelete2. Why does Piggy feel that them being outside the circle mean that they didn't have any part in the death of Simon?
3. Why does Piggy keep insisting that Simon's death is an accident?
"'That was murder.' 'You stop it!'... 'It was dark. It was that-that bloody dance.'" (156)
This scene really shocked me because Piggy is so level headed and a critical thinker I thought for sure he would agree with Ralph that Simon's death was a murder. But Piggy seemed like he kept making excuses of why they weren't involved or why it was murder and just an accident. I feel that he was only trying to convince himself what happened was only an accident and nothing else.