A quote that stood out to me was, "...darkness dropped on the island like an extinguisher and soon the shelters were full of restlessness, under the remote stars" (58-9). Jack, obsessed with the idea of killing a pig, camouflages his face with clay and charcoal and enters the jungle to hunt, accompanied by several other boys. On the beach, Ralph and Piggy see a ship on the horizon—but they also see that the signal fire has gone out. They hurry to the top of the hill, but it is too late to rekindle the flame, and the ship does not come for them. Ralph is furious with Jack, because it was the hunters’ responsibility to see that the fire was maintained. Jack and the hunters return from the jungle, covered with blood and chanting a bizarre song. They carry a dead pig on a stake between them. Furious at the hunters’ irresponsibility, Ralph accosts Jack about the signal fire. The hunters, having actually managed to catch and kill a pig, are so excited and crazed with bloodlust that they barely hear Ralph’s complaints. When Piggy shrilly complains about the hunters’ immaturity, Jack slaps him hard, breaking one of the lenses of his glasses. Jack taunts Piggy by mimicking his whining voice. Ralph and Jack have a heated conversation. At last, Jack admits his responsibility in the failure of the signal fire but never apologizes to Piggy. Ralph goes to Piggy to use his glasses to light a fire, and at that moment, Jack’s friendly feelings toward Ralph change to resentment. Things between the main characters have been "extinguished" in ways. Like Ralph's power abuse and Jack's savage state with the fact that Piggy was ignored often.
Nik i think your post does a really good job of presenting the shift in character traits between the main characters, I think you should elaborate more on what underling causes create these tensions and shifts (other then just the the physical actions of not keeping the fire lit). I also think that Jack's consumption with killing the pig is significant.
Chapter 4 has been the most interesting so far. It seems that everyone is slowly beginning to lose civilization and decline into savagery. I saw this mostly happen with Rodger. Roger shows his real colors in the beginning of this chapter when he throws rocks at the littluns. "Roger gathered a handful of stones and began to throw them. Yet there was a space round Henry, perhaps six yards in diameter, into which he dare not throw. Here, invisible yet strong, was the taboo of the old life. Round the squatting child was the protection of parents and school and policemen and the law" (62). This is the point in the book where the boys are starting to see a decline into savagery. This quote shocked me the most because the savage instinct almost dominated the civilized instinct. Right now, Roger could not give in completely, but instead threw rocks around Henry. Soon, it will be TO Henry. Roger is showing the first signs of the boys giving in to savagery, it won't be only Jack this time. That is truly the sad part, because, eventually, they will completely lose their respect for institutions, like, policemen, the law, school, and parents. I wonder what would happen then. Now, some people say that we are better off without laws because it restricts us from being free, but, look at this society the boys are living in... Soon, it will be nothing but 12-year old kids experiencing devolution, becoming like cavemen. So my question for today is: Will we devolve overtime if we don't have any sort of laws or government?
I agree with you completely. This is a sign that the boys are losing there sense of society and structure. There will defiantly be conflict revolving around this later in the book. I think that it is a bad situation because the boys are to young to realize what is good for them and will affect how they live on the island.
I agree with you Lupe. Without a functioning society or authority, the boys are starting to do things they wouldn't have done back home. With out law, there is chaos, because people go back to their natural state a become like cavemen. But the question is, is this necessarily a bad thing?
I agree with everything that has been said, Aleeza, Lila, and Lupe. I wanted to respond to Lila's point about the fact that the boy's don't know what it good for them. I think about this a lot too while reading the book and find it so interesting. Up until now, it is easy to assume that these boys have been taken care of my family members at home, and don't normally need to ask themselves what is right or wrong, because they have simply been told what and what not to do. Now that there are no rules, it is up to them to decide what is best for them, but they don't know because they haven't made many decisions alone, before.
The line that really stood out to me this chapter was the first one, “the first rhythm that they became used to was the slow swing from dawn to quick dust”. (page 62). I though this was a really great sentence for Golding to start off with because it presented a main theme that he began to establish in chapter 3. Towards the end of chapter three is seems as if the boys have accepted their fate they still have hope but overall they believe they will be on the island for some time especially because they have been on the island already for a few days, This sentence is the epitome of defeat. It accepts that they are now living on this island it also represents time that has passed and time that will past because the sunset is constant and the sun had and will always rise. This sentence presents the idea that they may always be on the island in an extremely relaxed and subtle way. Its almost sad how the characters have excepted their fate but as demonstrated through the rest of the chapter the island has changed them and will probably continue to change them. All the boys have been striped of their facades and the island shown them (to be a clique) their true colors. I think that one of the most interesting themes will be to watch how the island continues to change them.
Kate-I agree that the first line of the chapter was very poignant. It shows that the boys have finally created some sense of normalcy within the island. Although, I disagree that this represents their unanimous defeat, because if they had really given up in defeat, then I don't think that Ralph would have been so worked up that they missed the opportunity of being saved by the ship that had passed by.
The quote that stood out to me during this chapter was a description of Piggy. "He was the only boy on the island whose hair never seemed to grow. The rest were shock-headed, but Piggy's hair still lay in wisps over his head as though baldness were his natural state and this imperfect covering would soon go, like the velvet on a young stag's antlers." (64) This was a very detailed description about Piggy's physical looks. In class, we talked about how Jack's hair had gotten so long which meant the boys had definitely been on the island for awhile. But for Piggy it's different. Throughout the book Piggy is constantly picked on, but he is also the one behind the curtain who is worried about the well being of everyone. This quote shows Piggy's imperfection from the rest of the boys. As the book continues I think Piggy is an interesting character to watch develop and see how his influence grows on the group.
I also saw this as an interesting and almost even surreal quote. Perhaps it represents that all the other boys are changing on the island, and falling deeper and deeper into their savage, natural human states, but not Piggy, or not yet, at least. As all the other boys' hair changes, they, too, are also changing and possibly devolving. I think Piggy's static condition and length of hair represents how he has not yet changed, and he is just as civilized and in touch with society as he was when first crashed on the island.
I agree and interesting point that you have. I think that it could quite possibly sybolize that Piggy is the only one that is not changing as a person from this experience, and not learning anything new. Also it seems as if he is just staying the same with his opinions and etc. -Marcello Brattesani
I was very interested by Ralph's actions dealing with the fire and the ship. "'You let the fire go out.' This repetition made Jack uneasy. ... 'There was a ship. Out there. You said you'd keep the fire going and you let it out!'"(70). The idea of the boys turning into savages comes up in a lot of characters, but in this scene it makes me think that Ralph is not changing. There are some scenes when Ralph seems to act like one, but I think his beliefs have not changed from the beginning of the book. Ralph wants to get rescued, that he lashes out and affects his friendship with the boys. His obsession with being rescued, makes me think that he is changing but in a bad way. Plus he is the leader of the group, which means he has to look out for all the boys and do whats best for them. I think that by wanting to be rescued, he is not seeing what the boys need. This shoes me that he might not be the best leader. Will his obsession affect the boys? Will he be able to be a strong leader for the boys or will he end up destroying everything they have?
I agree that Ralph definitely wants more than anything to be off the island. The mere prospect of a ship off in the distance fills him with so much hope that they might hitch a ride off the island clouds his judgment. He becomes so angered that they let the fire go out in order to get food even though the chances of actually signaling the ship were minuscule. Although his actions do gain the respect of many of the kids, I agree with you that it affects his friendships with many of them, as well as pushing him away. The pressure of being "chief" may be too much for him, and i think that his obsession will in fact affect the boys in more than one way.
A very interesting quote in this chapter that I noticed was "Ralph looked back up at the dispersing smoke in the horizon, then up at the mountain" (67). Golding probably uses the word "dispersing" to represent the children's dispersal from each other. Namely, Jack and Ralph have clearly developed a growing tension and distance between one another. Jack seems to have forgotten about being rescued and forgotten about the society he came from. It is as if his world is simply the island and that is all it has ever been. He has become completely in touch with his savage roots and seems to have no intention of leaving. Ralph, on the other hand is still concerned with the safety of everyone else and concerned with the idea of going home, and that that is still a possibility. It is crucial for all the boys to remember where they come from and remember at least some of the rules of civilization to insure some level of order on the island
Lily Cook The part of Chapter 4 that stood out to me most right after the boys came back carrying the pig they had killed. Golding wrote that the hunters thoughts were that they had "outwitted a living thing, imposed their will upon it, taken away its life like a long satisfying drink". I think the simile that is used, "like a long satisfying drink" is important because it resembles what all the boys on the island yearn for, and that the act of taking away this pig's life elates them because they have been so powerless on the island, so killing the pig was really satisfying to them. This is because they could finally use their free will to overpower another creature. I think that this is important because it further shows the separation from civilization these boys have.
I completely agree, I wrote similarly about how the boys are separating from civilization and society. The thought of the boys getting a thrill from killing the boys, scares me. It makes me wonder what the boys will turn into if they are stranded on the island for months. It also proves how their society/community is falling apart instead of growing for the better. I think that their community will continue to fall apart if the confrontations between Ralph and Jack continue, and if the boys continue to not work as a team.
Roger shows a very scary side of himself in this chapter. "Roger gathered a handful of stones and began to throw them. Yet there was a space round Henry, perhaps six yards in diameter, into which he dare not throw. Here, invisible yet strong, was the taboo of the old life. Round the squatting child was the protection of parents and school and policemen and the law." At this point in the story, the boys are still building their society, and they are still more civilized they are savages.However, the boys are now starting to test boundaries they wouldn't have tested back home especially when it comes to using physical force and violence. This quote shows Roger feels the urge to torment Henry by hitting him with stones, but the social norms about behavior are still too strong for him to give in completely to his savage urges. At this point, Roger still feels held back by by “parents and school and policemen and the law”. I wonder how long it will be until the boys completely lose their respect for authority figures and social norms, and completely become the savages that are inside of them.
Aleeza I completely agree with your post. The fact that Rodger started throwing rocks at the littluns already shows violence and anger. Being on an island for this long could cause the boys to go insane I guess, because they haven't been in this situation before. If this continues then things could actually get out of hand and not lead to a pretty ending.
I agree as well. In fact, later on in the chapter, Jack punches Piggy and smacks him in the head because he was "able at last to hit someone" (71). I found this shocking and, after reading your thoughts, realized that this is what is going to happen when all the boys lose their ideas of social norms. Things will become more chaotic and their violent sides will begin to show through.
At this point in LOTF, the boy’s community is starting to resemble a society. There is a clear power struggle between the older boys, but one elected leader. The littleluns resemble the majority of society, the common people. While the older boys fill positions of importance. Just like in any society some of the older boys are nice to the young ones, like Ralph and Simon. Other’s prey on their innocence, like Jack and Roger. Basic things like their schedule of playing and working, with a siesta in the middle make them the very beginning of an organized society. Also on pg.60 Roger and Maurice come back from duty at the fire, this means that they have assigned jobs with assigned time slots, once again proving that they are closely approaching an organized society. Of course with out laws and adult supervision their society will only be able to grow so large before it falls apart. On pg. 62 Roger conveys this perfectly, “Roger gathered a handful of stones and began to throw them. Yet there was a space round Henry, perhaps six yards in diameter, into which he dare not throw. Here, invisible yet strong, was the taboo of the old life. Round the squatting child was the protection of parents and school and policemen and the law.” Due to the adult supervision Roger has been surrounded by his entire life he is cautious about throwing the stone to close to Henry, but the longer the boys are on the island the less rules from home will matter to them. This is dangerous because it gives the boys no boundaries. This reminds me a lot about what we are learning about in history, some philosophers think that in order to be completely free you must not have to obey any laws. Others think this is dangerous and not worth complete freedom because for example if there is not a law against murder you will have to sleep with one eye open every night, making sure that anybody you have wronged does not kill you. I wonder when having no laws will finally catch up with the island of boys?
"Here, invisible yet strong, was the taboo of the old life. Round the squatting child was the protection of parents and school and policemen and the law."
This quote I believe exemplifies the whole story line of how little by little, the boys (especially the older ones) are beginning to decline into savagery. This is shown in the book when Roger and Maurice are kicking the sand castles down, or when Roger is throwing stones at one of the littluns. Although deep inside lay these urges to just be overcome with selfishness and power (like Jack already has), social customs are still to strong for those urges to come out. This is almost a precursor to what happens later in the chapter when the fire goes out. The fire, symbolizing their only connection to civilization, I feel, is the start to a crumbling society. I wonder how long it will take for this "taboo of the old life" to disappear, leaving a fragmented society, and an island full of savages.
Isaiah, I agree with the overall point you are making here and I too found this quote to be evocative of Golding's views on society and the effect society (or a lack of) has on people. However, I don't think "savages" is the right word to describe the boys. I agree that society is definitely not the same as human nature, and societal implications cause us to act differently then our human nature tells us. I think one of the reasons "Lord of the Flies" is so interesting is because it is generally accepted, without much question, that the overall effect of society on human behavior is positive. "Lord of the Flies", on the other hand, is showing if and how a community/civilization would work without normal societal implications, and therefore causing readers to question whether, overall, humans would be happier without the society we live in today. That is why I don't think calling the boys "savages" is completely appropriate; "Lord of the Flies" has caused me to see that in a community without society and the effect it has on behavior, people can still be happy, and therefore are more primitive and instinctive rather than "savages".
one quote that I found interesting was when Jack said "We had to have them to hunt." This is interesting because Jack knew that they need to keep the fire going with the smoke to get found and he still choose to take the kids that were keeping the fire going. And what do you know a ship is on the horizon and doesn't see them because there was no smoke. In addition Jack decided that it was more important for him to kill the pig than getting rescued. I find it quite odd how in the begging Jack said that he didn't need anybody else to kill the pig and he could do it on his own and now he is saying how he needed the kids to catch the pig. -Marcello Brattesani
I completely agree with this whole statement. In the beginning of the book I always thought Jack was trying to show that he can be a good leader too and he just wasn’t given the chance. Thus, any opportunity he had he took it. By always calling the choir "his" or saying he can kill the pig alone. I also thought that maybe he was more realistic because instead of thinking about getting saved he was thinking about what until then, we need food. But I come to realize he did it to pretty much show off and now that he can’t live up to his word he needs help. I find it very symbolical that he doesn’t turn to any of the older kids to help him, he goes to the younger ones, and he knows it would be less judgment.
Toward the end of chapter four we start seeing a large separation between Ralph and Jack. "Ralph turned. 'You could have had everyone when the shelters were finished. But you had to hunt-' 'We needed meat.'" (71)Ralph is yelling at Jack for letting the fire out because he wanted to hunt for food instead of tending to the fire. There was a boat in the horizon that would have seen the smoke from the fire if they had not let it burn out. Jack felt that it was necessary for him to hunt rather than tend to the fire. This shows how different they are in opinions. Jack is focused on living in the now and trying to make sure that they can survive whereas Ralph is still focused on being saved. Ralph thinks that they will be saved soon and is hoping for that. Jack is a bit more realistic and is trying to survive as if they wont be rescued for a while. If they were to cooperate and work together then their plans could work. The problem is that they are both leaders and so they do not like to listen to each other.They have the same goal just different ways to get there.
“Jack planned his new face. He made one cheek and one eye-socket white, then he rubbed red over the other half of his face…he looked in astonishment, no longer at himself but at an awesome stranger” (63). When Jack is about to go hunting, he paints his face for camouflage; the mask makes him feel “liberated from shame and self-consciousness” (64). By painting his face Jack is a stranger to himself, which allows him to commit any actions without feeling shameful. I think that Golding uses this mask to demonstrate the change in Jack’s character, which is no longer civilized, instead he is more violent. With the act of creating a mask, Jack seems to have lost his knowledge of reality. I find Golding’s choice of color interesting during this event- he uses red and white- two colors that when combined form pink. This makes me question the significance of the color pink in this book; is this just a coincidence or done purposefully?
Ana,I agree that when Jack painted his face he became a stranger to himself, and because of this he seems to be slipping more into the dark side, "'I cut the pig's throat,' said Jack, proudly, and yet twitched as he said it" (69). I found it weird that he twitched when he said that, it's almost like he isn't completely comfortable with the idea of killing and yet he's proud of being able to kill at the same time. Also to answer your question about the significance of pink I think that Golding purposefully does this to show how pink is a mix between red meaning savagery and white meaning pureness/innocence.
I agree with your idea that Jack is losing a sense of self when putting the mask on. It seems as if it is only a cover up that is hiding the innocent choir boy we were first introduced to in chapter 1. He is not only a stranger to the reader, but also as Golding says "an awesome stranger" to himself.
The face-off between Ralph and Jack was described as, "...the brilliant world of hunting, tactic, fierce exhilaration, skill; and there was the world of longing and baffled commonsense" (71). This describes the struggle for leadership up to this point in the book, and I wouldn't be surprised the the struggle doesn't change. Jack is the hunter; he has power in the sense the if not for him, the group won't eat. Ralph, on the other hand, has kept them together this entire time. He's helped them become a community, and helped them to at least feel safe. Although these two sides go well together, they can hardly coexist in peace. These are going to be the two sides fighting the entire book, and there's a high risk of it tearing apart the group. I wonder what sides Piggy and Simon will take, and if their choices affect those of other kids.
I agree and believe that the conflict between them may not last the entire novel but instead be settled by betrayal and lines will have to be drawn between the group. There is no way that these two leaders who approach everything differently can coexist within the same society for much longer then they have now.
I agree to the extent that these two leaders can never coexist peacefully, but I believe that Jack's ideas for the society are not as well meaning as Ralph's seem to be. Jack hunts the pig not for food, because it seems that all men have enough food to survive, but to feel in control and the leader. At the beginning Jack fails to kill the pig and feels humiliated and horrible, this persue of the pig is his need for control over a silly animal becoming clear. Both of these men are trying to lead and persure their ideas in the way they know best, but as they do this they are counteracting each other and forcing neither leader to hold control.
As the life on the island seems to become less of a problem for these lost children they also seem to lose the characteristics they took with them from home. When the hunters finally bring home the pig to eat a chant is created by the boys. They say "Kill the pig. Cut her throat. Bash her in" (75). After this moment I both lost and gained connections with the children marooned on the island. They once innocent and moral quest for survival had been corrupted by there separation from society. On a certain level I understand the excitement of obtaining your goal but to all tighter taunt the pig before its death seemed excessive and cruel. I wonder whether or not the corruption will continue to the point where I can no longer condone what these children do the island or its inhabitants.
It's interesting that you should say that, especially since the chapter is called "Painted Faces and Long Hair". That right there is a signal that these boys have shifted from the slightly civilized creature they started out as into something more barbaric. Like you said, it is understandable that they are straying from their innocence because of their desperate situation, but my question is this: is it reversible with a little bit of structure added to the island life?
Throughout this book, when it comes to leadership, I constantly find myself realizing that age is one of the most influential elements of a leader. Often times, the captain of a sports team among the older players, parents are obviously older than their children and they are leaders, and stereotypically teachers are older than their students. On page 62, "Henry was a bit of a leader this afternoon, because the other two were Percival and Johnny." After I read this, I started to think about how strange it is that when someone finds them self the oldest in a group of people, they emerge as the leader. At least that's how I have found a lot of situations to be. I started to question this idea I thought about what would happen if someone were potentially a leader but to people older than them. Would there be a sense of competition and nervousness? Would they feel a need to prove their worthiness? I was thinking about this idea because Henry, the leader only when the context pertains to him, would most likely not find himself a leader if Jack and Ralph were around. If they were around, their dominance would eliminate everything that Henry had working towards him when he was without them. Why does age seem to affect everything? It makes me question what would happen if a great leader emerged, potentially someone better than Ralph or Jack, but because they were younger, it made them harder to become dominant.
As I read this book, it frustrates me more and more how mean they all are to Piggy. He is the smartest and (in my opinion) the most capable of them all, and yet they continue to resent and bully him. One part that really stuck out to me was where Piggy was petitioning the idea of a sundial and Ralph was completely blowing him off, and then we hear that "there had grown up tacitly among the biguns the opinion that Piggy was an outsider, not only by accent, which did not matter, but by fat, and ass-mar, and specs, and a certain disinclination to manual labor." (65). This is basically saying that it doesn't matter to the boys if Piggy has the best ideas and has their best interests in mind; he's still fat and awkward and that automatically makes him less of a person than they are and therefore not worth listening to (let alone let him lead them). This might sound a tad cynical, but what if the point of this allegory is that society doesn't generally care about one's capabilities (or at least the truly important ones) when selecting a leader, but rather his attractiveness and how he would represent the people - what kind of message would he send; in other words, life is one big popularity contest, That being said, if you don't fit in, you have no chance of making a difference let alone surviving (as Piggy has demonstrated)
I agree with your analysis on how the boys perceive Piggy. Above the quote you choose it also says "...but there was always a little pleasure to be got out of pulling his leg, even if one did by accident," which demonstrates that the other boys like to bully Piggy. I feel that Piggy is ignored because the other boys don't want to take the risk of also being considered weak if they defend Piggy.
I also agree. It frustrates me that they treat Piggy the way that they do, because it seems that he's the only one who hasn't been changed by the Island. He is probably the most sensible and realistic out of the group, yet the other kids don't listen to him because they think that he is a loser in society, even though society doesn't even really exist on the Island. I think that later in the book Piggy will finally be heard and people will realize his worth.
The quote that stood out most to me in chapter 4 is "Clearly they were of the opinion that Jack had done the decent thing, had put himself in the right by his generous apology and Ralph, obscurely in the wrong"(72). It surprised me that the other boys actually thought that Ralph was wrong in the wrong, Ralph had every right to be mad at Jack. Jack's main priority was killing a pig, when it should have been helping Ralph improve their camp until they were rescued. The boys aren't starving, they don't need to eat pig. But they did need to keep the fire going, there was a ship right there in view! And they couldn't even send them a smoke signal because Jack took the hunters off of their task of keeping the fire burning. The fact that all Jack had to was say I'm sorry and he was forgiven and seen as the good guy by the boys was mind boggling to me, he lost their shot at being rescued and they didn't even seem upset, all because he caught a lousy pig.
In this chapter the idea of an allegory was shown, not even as the broad picture but in excerpts that occured between the 'littuns and main characters in the book. As an older boy threw sand at a young boy building a caste there, "was the taboo of the old life. Round the squatting child was the protection of parents and school and policemen and the law" (62). As this happened I viewed human nature as being inherently fearful of wrong, if the idea in the past had consequences. The "taboo" of the world they lived in before made Roger question his wrongdoing, fearful of the consequences he once had. Also in this quote I saw how the more powerful or older character placed his power in the wrong way on someone that could not retaliate, making him somewhat confused and hurt. The premise of this book, being stuck on an island, forces characters into their natural state and in this quote Golding shows it as fearful and yearning for control and power. In todays world we see this even in our very government, as men in high positions try to place power on those lower.
I found it interesting in this chapter how much we see the society grow more and more. Even from the first chapter there had been an established hierarchy, but now we really see it turning into an elaborate political foundation. The “littleuns” for example represent the masses, as they often are not given names or descriptions, while the older kids are the political power meant to protect the masses. Then we see those like Roger or Maurice who do not have the best interests of the younger kids in mind. They represent those who have become crooked or corrupt. Then, in addition to all of this, we also see the tensions between Ralph and Jack rising, and Jack’s infatuation with hunting increases. I believe this is most likely due to the fact that Jack was not elected leader in the beginning. If he had, his obsession would have been replaced by his rightful duties as leader, and he would be more concerned with rescue rather than survival.
Good points Jake. I agree and see that the society at this point is developing and everyone is becoming to find their place. I see it as becoming more of a civilization and community rather remaining a bunch of boys stranded on an island. However, with the development of their society i think their values as a whole are developing. Not entirely in the best intrest of Ralph or Piggy though. Jack and the hunters seem to have looked towards a new way of life while Piggy and Ralph are holding on to the values of their old societies. im not sure who is the wrong one here. certainly, Piggy and Ralph are becoming outsiders and the odd men out.
In this chapter, i saw the scene where the boat passes by as monumental and pivotal. After that happened the direction of the society seemed to change. I chose the line that the hunters speak just after catching the pig. Like savages they chant the lines, "kill the pig. Cut her throat. Spill her blood." too me, this scene looks like where the society will be headed. Golding made it that the boys had stared into the eyes of rescue and returning to civilization, yet the hunters had let the fire go out and the ship sailed away. it seemed like that represented the direction of their society and hopes of getting rescued has gone away. Not only did they lose the opportunity, Golding makes it so that they somewhat choose to let it slip away. The wants of the society were not in the direction of getting rescued but rather they were towards hunting and remaining on the island. I saw this scene as Ralphs hopes and authority leaving the society and these new values of hunting growing much stronger and much more wanted.
I agree completely! Slowly you see the boys begin to grow away from their own society, and almost forget about being rescued. It seems to me one of the only boys who has not yet become animalistic is Piggy, who attempts to cling to his old way of life by suggesting they build a sundial or create a clock. While Piggy attempts to create order, the other boys long for feeling control. The way the hunters described the killing of the pig shocked me, especially in comparison to how they had shuddered at the thought of killing a living thing earlier in the book. I believe the driving force of the hunters need to kill is the need for control, a feeling that resides in all the boys. I think eventually it will overtake all of them.
A quote that stood out to me was “they had built castles in the sand at the bar of the little river.” (59). I find it interesting how Golding refers to them as castles in the sand instead of just simply calling them sand castles. Is this reflecting how they are still childlike and still have much child behavior, and at the same time they are going up, thus, calling it by a more sophisticated name. Also they have the time to play with sand and make a fake ideal society instead of working on their own true shelter and food. Do they still think of this island as play time and fun like a fellow classmate said once before? Or are they thinking about what to do next? Even though they realize they are on their own do they really know what it’s like to be left alone and the consequences? I think this will foreshow who will be powerful and better leaders at the end of the book and who will be very weak and still a dreamer with non-mature minds.
I agree with you Sydney that the young boys need to realize that it is not all fun and games and that they need to grow up. But I don't feel that they re mature at all but the author expects them to mature and that slowly they will.
…he looked in astonishment, no longer at himself but at an awesome stranger” This quote represents perfectly Jack's identity, and how at this point it is very hard to tell who he really is. Jack had become so obsessed with killing this pig, that when they didn't take care of the signal fire, he still could not get the fact that he finally caught the pig off of his mind. He didn't care that he failed the whole community, he only cared that he finally accomplished his goal. It also seems that this face paint could represent how he's changed ever since he's tried to take on the responsibility of hunting. He seemed to be at least more sensible before, where as now he is almost a savage, unknown by himself, and to others, and doesn't even get along with Ralph anymore. The way he slapped Piggy right across the face is a sure sign of his anger and savagery that is building with him as their stay on the island goes on.
In chapter 4, there is a clear struggle emerging between the boys fighting to keep civilized and the ones who are becoming more savage. It seems that all the boys, although they have good intentions and want to create a well functioning society, become taken over by the need for power and control. An example of this is Henry, when playing with fish, who uses a stick to control them. He "became absorbed beyond mere happiness as he felt himself exercising control over living things"(61). I think Henrys feelings of satisfaction when dominating others foreshadows how this feeling will take over the boys on the island.
I agree Ruby, that the boys are all finding to be the leader and control the island. Both the savages and humanistic people have gained control somehow, but do you really think Henry, one of the littleuns could take over? I feel like age and adulthood plays a huge role in the story and being young would make it very hard to become a leader; or even overthrow Ralph
Oh dear no thats not what I meant! I think the description of Henry feeling satisfied when controlling the fish reflects the rest of the boys need for power. I didn't mean Henry would take over, I meant that this need to control is within all the boys, and in the end it will overtake them.
In chapter 4 of "Lord of the Flies", a few quotes stood out to me that really exemplify Golding's understanding and opinion of human nature, and theoretically how people would act if they were removed from society. The first quote is on page 61, when Henry (who is not even a major character in the story at this point) is playing on the sand: "He became absorbed beyond mere happiness as he felt himself exercising control over living things" (61). I think this quote is really important when considering Golding's views on human nature because here he is stating his opinion extremely explicitly and fairly simply too. Throughout the whole story, the notion of power and what its effect on people is finds itself being repeated over and over. Golding discusses the ideas of having actual physical power over people, having a more mental control of people, and of the effects that being out of power can have. In this quote, he writes about the joy and literal happiness that one can attain from having power over other "living things". Another quote from chapter 4 that stood out to me in regards to Golding's dissertation on power is on page 73, when Ralph lights the fire after Jack returns with the hunted pig: "Before these fantastically attractive flowers of violet and red and yellow, unkindness melted away. They became a circle of boys round a campfire, and even Piggy and Ralph were half-drawn in" (73). I found this quote to be so significant because it shows another argument that Golding makes about human nature; here Golding shows how simple people really are, and how something as basic as a fire can literally "melt" away the same feelings that cause people to commit drastic actions. The tension and anger that Ralph and Jack shared just moments before the fire was lit were emotions that could've caused either one to do something crazy and perhaps harmful to the group. However, just by lighting a fire, Ralph and Jack became distracted from their anger and tension, and along with everyone else, gathered around the fire.
Reading this chapter brought a clear distinction between the savages and civil people. Once finally killing the pig Jack becomes an animal; " 'I cut the pig's throat,' said Jack, proudly, and yet twitched as he said it" (69). This quote shows Jack's change as a result of living on the island. He has dedicated his entire time on the island to killing this pig, although he is proud there is a sense of inhumanity in his actions. The tension on the island has increased as well because of Jack's behaviour. Focused on killing the pig, Jack didnt even notice he let the fire go out. Then when they had the chance to get saved by the passing boat, the fire had gone out due to Jack's carelessness. He was too preoccupied with the meat even when Ralph addressed the situation, "We can light the fire again. You should have been with us, Ralph. We had a smashing time." (69). Jack has lost all self control, and his motives are not more important than being saved.
I agree. It seems as if Jack has only taken interest into getting meat and that is the only thing keeping him on the island. Although he offers the others to eat(besides Piggy), he only wants to do it to boost his self esteem and redeem himself for his earlier failure. I think that him being obsessed with killing may result in later conflicts in the future.
One of the quotes that stood out to me was "He was the only boy on the island whose hair never seemed to grow"(64). This was significant because we are starting to see how everyone on the island are turning into savages. On the other hand it seems as if Piggy is the only one who still remains civil. This quote was meant to isolate Piggy from the rest, as he is the only one who has reasonable ideas of how to get rescued. His hair shows how he is still an English schoolboy while the rest of the boys start to obtain animal like characteristics away from home.
I found your analysis of this quote very interesting because I used the same quote but never thought of it like this. I thought that by says his hair never seems to grow is taking him apart of the social norm but yet not in a positive way. I thought he is still odd and at home he would be picked on and on the island he has been picked on. Which to me says a lot? A lot of the boys on this island look at this island as; I’m away from home, even if it means I need to learn survival skills. But piggy has the same reactions at both locations. But maybe you are right it could be a symbol that he is still civil.
In the beginning of this chapter, the author focuses his attention on the younger boys: "littluns". These boys have the luxurious life on this island, they only eat, sleep, and play doing the least as possible. For example, "They ate most of the day, picking fruit where they cold reach it and not particular about ripeness and quality" (59), this represents the lack of determination to be found on this island. It seems also that the author punishes the boys for doing nothing all day because from eating these fruits they get diarrhea and horrible stomach aches. But why are the boys not helping, is it because they are young or haven't come to the realization that this is not a vacation? With them having fun and eating in the morning, sleeping in the afternoon, and eating an relaxing in the evening the littluns carry the characteristics of vacationers. When will they wake up and realize that instead of it being a vacation it is a life and death situation?
"He was the only boy on the island whose hair never seemed to grow. The rest were shock-headed, but Piggy's hair still lay in wisps over his head as though baldness was his natural state and this imperfect covering would soon go, like the velvet on a young stag's antlers." (64) This quote stood out to me because of its vivid description. The fact that piggy's hair didn’t grow and all the other boys already had long hair seems very interesting. Maybe this will foreshadow how piggy is at the end of the book. I feel that as though this has been an island for these boys to get away from home, whether it was in a good way or bad, Piggy still has the same problems. He is still picked on and I feel that even though maybe not having your hair look caveman like is a good thing in this case it's not because piggy is still not apart of the social norm.
The line that most stood out to me was, "His mind was crowded with memories; memories of the knowledge that had come to them when they closed in on the struggling pig, knowledge that they had outwitted a living thing, imposed their will upon it, taken away its life like a long satisfying drink." This line clearly illuminates the power and satisfaction Jack feels after killing the pig. Although, he claims that hunting was pertinent, he knows the main reason why he's happy is the quenching of his thirst of overpowering not only because he killed the pig to eat it, he OVERPOWERED it and made it his victim.
A quote that stood out to me was, "...darkness dropped on the island like an extinguisher and soon the shelters were full of restlessness, under the remote stars" (58-9). Jack, obsessed with the idea of killing a pig, camouflages his face with clay and charcoal and enters the jungle to hunt, accompanied by several other boys. On the beach, Ralph and Piggy see a ship on the horizon—but they also see that the signal fire has gone out. They hurry to the top of the hill, but it is too late to rekindle the flame, and the ship does not come for them. Ralph is furious with Jack, because it was the hunters’ responsibility to see that the fire was maintained. Jack and the hunters return from the jungle, covered with blood and chanting a bizarre song. They carry a dead pig on a stake between them. Furious at the hunters’ irresponsibility, Ralph accosts Jack about the signal fire. The hunters, having actually managed to catch and kill a pig, are so excited and crazed with bloodlust that they barely hear Ralph’s complaints. When Piggy shrilly complains about the hunters’ immaturity, Jack slaps him hard, breaking one of the lenses of his glasses. Jack taunts Piggy by mimicking his whining voice. Ralph and Jack have a heated conversation. At last, Jack admits his responsibility in the failure of the signal fire but never apologizes to Piggy. Ralph goes to Piggy to use his glasses to light a fire, and at that moment, Jack’s friendly feelings toward Ralph change to resentment. Things between the main characters have been "extinguished" in ways. Like Ralph's power abuse and Jack's savage state with the fact that Piggy was ignored often.
ReplyDeleteNik i think your post does a really good job of presenting the shift in character traits between the main characters, I think you should elaborate more on what underling causes create these tensions and shifts (other then just the the physical actions of not keeping the fire lit). I also think that Jack's consumption with killing the pig is significant.
DeleteChapter 4 has been the most interesting so far. It seems that everyone is slowly beginning to lose civilization and decline into savagery. I saw this mostly happen with Rodger. Roger shows his real colors in the beginning of this chapter when he throws rocks at the littluns. "Roger gathered a handful of stones and began to throw them. Yet there was a space round Henry, perhaps six yards in diameter, into which he dare not throw. Here, invisible yet strong, was the taboo of the old life. Round the squatting child was the protection of parents and school and policemen and the law" (62). This is the point in the book where the boys are starting to see a decline into savagery. This quote shocked me the most because the savage instinct almost dominated the civilized instinct. Right now, Roger could not give in completely, but instead threw rocks around Henry. Soon, it will be TO Henry. Roger is showing the first signs of the boys giving in to savagery, it won't be only Jack this time. That is truly the sad part, because, eventually, they will completely lose their respect for institutions, like, policemen, the law, school, and parents. I wonder what would happen then. Now, some people say that we are better off without laws because it restricts us from being free, but, look at this society the boys are living in... Soon, it will be nothing but 12-year old kids experiencing devolution, becoming like cavemen. So my question for today is: Will we devolve overtime if we don't have any sort of laws or government?
ReplyDeleteI agree with you completely. This is a sign that the boys are losing there sense of society and structure. There will defiantly be conflict revolving around this later in the book. I think that it is a bad situation because the boys are to young to realize what is good for them and will affect how they live on the island.
DeleteI agree with you Lupe. Without a functioning society or authority, the boys are starting to do things they wouldn't have done back home. With out law, there is chaos, because people go back to their natural state a become like cavemen. But the question is, is this necessarily a bad thing?
DeleteI agree with everything that has been said, Aleeza, Lila, and Lupe. I wanted to respond to Lila's point about the fact that the boy's don't know what it good for them. I think about this a lot too while reading the book and find it so interesting. Up until now, it is easy to assume that these boys have been taken care of my family members at home, and don't normally need to ask themselves what is right or wrong, because they have simply been told what and what not to do. Now that there are no rules, it is up to them to decide what is best for them, but they don't know because they haven't made many decisions alone, before.
DeleteThe line that really stood out to me this chapter was the first one, “the first rhythm that they became used to was the slow swing from dawn to quick dust”. (page 62). I though this was a really great sentence for Golding to start off with because it presented a main theme that he began to establish in chapter 3. Towards the end of chapter three is seems as if the boys have accepted their fate they still have hope but overall they believe they will be on the island for some time especially because they have been on the island already for a few days, This sentence is the epitome of defeat. It accepts that they are now living on this island it also represents time that has passed and time that will past because the sunset is constant and the sun had and will always rise. This sentence presents the idea that they may always be on the island in an extremely relaxed and subtle way. Its almost sad how the characters have excepted their fate but as demonstrated through the rest of the chapter the island has changed them and will probably continue to change them. All the boys have been striped of their facades and the island shown them (to be a clique) their true colors. I think that one of the most interesting themes will be to watch how the island continues to change them.
ReplyDeleteLily Cook
DeleteKate-I agree that the first line of the chapter was very poignant. It shows that the boys have finally created some sense of normalcy within the island. Although, I disagree that this represents their unanimous defeat, because if they had really given up in defeat, then I don't think that Ralph would have been so worked up that they missed the opportunity of being saved by the ship that had passed by.
The quote that stood out to me during this chapter was a description of Piggy. "He was the only boy on the island whose hair never seemed to grow. The rest were shock-headed, but Piggy's hair still lay in wisps over his head as though baldness were his natural state and this imperfect covering would soon go, like the velvet on a young stag's antlers." (64) This was a very detailed description about Piggy's physical looks. In class, we talked about how Jack's hair had gotten so long which meant the boys had definitely been on the island for awhile. But for Piggy it's different. Throughout the book Piggy is constantly picked on, but he is also the one behind the curtain who is worried about the well being of everyone. This quote shows Piggy's imperfection from the rest of the boys. As the book continues I think Piggy is an interesting character to watch develop and see how his influence grows on the group.
ReplyDeleteI also saw this as an interesting and almost even surreal quote. Perhaps it represents that all the other boys are changing on the island, and falling deeper and deeper into their savage, natural human states, but not Piggy, or not yet, at least. As all the other boys' hair changes, they, too, are also changing and possibly devolving. I think Piggy's static condition and length of hair represents how he has not yet changed, and he is just as civilized and in touch with society as he was when first crashed on the island.
DeleteI agree and interesting point that you have. I think that it could quite possibly sybolize that Piggy is the only one that is not changing as a person from this experience, and not learning anything new. Also it seems as if he is just staying the same with his opinions and etc.
Delete-Marcello Brattesani
I was very interested by Ralph's actions dealing with the fire and the ship. "'You let the fire go out.' This repetition made Jack uneasy. ... 'There was a ship. Out there. You said you'd keep the fire going and you let it out!'"(70). The idea of the boys turning into savages comes up in a lot of characters, but in this scene it makes me think that Ralph is not changing. There are some scenes when Ralph seems to act like one, but I think his beliefs have not changed from the beginning of the book. Ralph wants to get rescued, that he lashes out and affects his friendship with the boys. His obsession with being rescued, makes me think that he is changing but in a bad way. Plus he is the leader of the group, which means he has to look out for all the boys and do whats best for them. I think that by wanting to be rescued, he is not seeing what the boys need. This shoes me that he might not be the best leader. Will his obsession affect the boys? Will he be able to be a strong leader for the boys or will he end up destroying everything they have?
ReplyDeleteI agree that Ralph definitely wants more than anything to be off the island. The mere prospect of a ship off in the distance fills him with so much hope that they might hitch a ride off the island clouds his judgment. He becomes so angered that they let the fire go out in order to get food even though the chances of actually signaling the ship were minuscule. Although his actions do gain the respect of many of the kids, I agree with you that it affects his friendships with many of them, as well as pushing him away. The pressure of being "chief" may be too much for him, and i think that his obsession will in fact affect the boys in more than one way.
DeleteA very interesting quote in this chapter that I noticed was "Ralph looked back up at the dispersing smoke in the horizon, then up at the mountain" (67). Golding probably uses the word "dispersing" to represent the children's dispersal from each other. Namely, Jack and Ralph have clearly developed a growing tension and distance between one another. Jack seems to have forgotten about being rescued and forgotten about the society he came from. It is as if his world is simply the island and that is all it has ever been. He has become completely in touch with his savage roots and seems to have no intention of leaving. Ralph, on the other hand is still concerned with the safety of everyone else and concerned with the idea of going home, and that that is still a possibility. It is crucial for all the boys to remember where they come from and remember at least some of the rules of civilization to insure some level of order on the island
ReplyDeleteLily Cook
ReplyDeleteThe part of Chapter 4 that stood out to me most right after the boys came back carrying the pig they had killed. Golding wrote that the hunters thoughts were that they had "outwitted a living thing, imposed their will upon it, taken away its life like a long satisfying drink". I think the simile that is used, "like a long satisfying drink" is important because it resembles what all the boys on the island yearn for, and that the act of taking away this pig's life elates them because they have been so powerless on the island, so killing the pig was really satisfying to them. This is because they could finally use their free will to overpower another creature. I think that this is important because it further shows the separation from civilization these boys have.
I completely agree, I wrote similarly about how the boys are separating from civilization and society. The thought of the boys getting a thrill from killing the boys, scares me. It makes me wonder what the boys will turn into if they are stranded on the island for months. It also proves how their society/community is falling apart instead of growing for the better. I think that their community will continue to fall apart if the confrontations between Ralph and Jack continue, and if the boys continue to not work as a team.
DeleteRoger shows a very scary side of himself in this chapter. "Roger gathered a handful of stones and began to throw them. Yet there was a space round Henry, perhaps six yards in diameter, into which he dare not throw. Here, invisible yet strong, was the taboo of the old life. Round the squatting child was the protection of parents and school and policemen and the law."
ReplyDeleteAt this point in the story, the boys are still building their society, and they are still more civilized they are savages.However, the boys are now starting to test boundaries they wouldn't have tested back home especially when it comes to using physical force and violence. This quote shows Roger feels the urge to torment Henry by hitting him with stones, but the social norms about behavior are still too strong for him to give in completely to his savage urges. At this point, Roger still feels held back by by “parents and school and policemen and the law”. I wonder how long it will be until the boys completely lose their respect for authority figures and social norms, and completely become the savages that are inside of them.
Aleeza I completely agree with your post. The fact that Rodger started throwing rocks at the littluns already shows violence and anger. Being on an island for this long could cause the boys to go insane I guess, because they haven't been in this situation before. If this continues then things could actually get out of hand and not lead to a pretty ending.
DeleteI agree as well. In fact, later on in the chapter, Jack punches Piggy and smacks him in the head because he was "able at last to hit someone" (71). I found this shocking and, after reading your thoughts, realized that this is what is going to happen when all the boys lose their ideas of social norms. Things will become more chaotic and their violent sides will begin to show through.
Delete
ReplyDeleteAt this point in LOTF, the boy’s community is starting to resemble a society. There is a clear power struggle between the older boys, but one elected leader. The littleluns resemble the majority of society, the common people. While the older boys fill positions of importance. Just like in any society some of the older boys are nice to the young ones, like Ralph and Simon. Other’s prey on their innocence, like Jack and Roger. Basic things like their schedule of playing and working, with a siesta in the middle make them the very beginning of an organized society. Also on pg.60 Roger and Maurice come back from duty at the fire, this means that they have assigned jobs with assigned time slots, once again proving that they are closely approaching an organized society. Of course with out laws and adult supervision their society will only be able to grow so large before it falls apart. On pg. 62 Roger conveys this perfectly, “Roger gathered a handful of stones and began to throw them. Yet there was a space round Henry, perhaps six yards in diameter, into which he dare not throw. Here, invisible yet strong, was the taboo of the old life. Round the squatting child was the protection of parents and school and policemen and the law.” Due to the adult supervision Roger has been surrounded by his entire life he is cautious about throwing the stone to close to Henry, but the longer the boys are on the island the less rules from home will matter to them. This is dangerous because it gives the boys no boundaries. This reminds me a lot about what we are learning about in history, some philosophers think that in order to be completely free you must not have to obey any laws. Others think this is dangerous and not worth complete freedom because for example if there is not a law against murder you will have to sleep with one eye open every night, making sure that anybody you have wronged does not kill you. I wonder when having no laws will finally catch up with the island of boys?
"Here, invisible yet strong, was the taboo of the old life. Round the squatting child was the protection of parents and school and policemen and the law."
ReplyDeleteThis quote I believe exemplifies the whole story line of how little by little, the boys (especially the older ones) are beginning to decline into savagery. This is shown in the book when Roger and Maurice are kicking the sand castles down, or when Roger is throwing stones at one of the littluns. Although deep inside lay these urges to just be overcome with selfishness and power (like Jack already has), social customs are still to strong for those urges to come out. This is almost a precursor to what happens later in the chapter when the fire goes out. The fire, symbolizing their only connection to civilization, I feel, is the start to a crumbling society. I wonder how long it will take for this "taboo of the old life" to disappear, leaving a fragmented society, and an island full of savages.
Isaiah, I agree with the overall point you are making here and I too found this quote to be evocative of Golding's views on society and the effect society (or a lack of) has on people. However, I don't think "savages" is the right word to describe the boys. I agree that society is definitely not the same as human nature, and societal implications cause us to act differently then our human nature tells us. I think one of the reasons "Lord of the Flies" is so interesting is because it is generally accepted, without much question, that the overall effect of society on human behavior is positive. "Lord of the Flies", on the other hand, is showing if and how a community/civilization would work without normal societal implications, and therefore causing readers to question whether, overall, humans would be happier without the society we live in today. That is why I don't think calling the boys "savages" is completely appropriate; "Lord of the Flies" has caused me to see that in a community without society and the effect it has on behavior, people can still be happy, and therefore are more primitive and instinctive rather than "savages".
Deleteone quote that I found interesting was when Jack said "We had to have them to hunt." This is interesting because Jack knew that they need to keep the fire going with the smoke to get found and he still choose to take the kids that were keeping the fire going. And what do you know a ship is on the horizon and doesn't see them because there was no smoke. In addition Jack decided that it was more important for him to kill the pig than getting rescued. I find it quite odd how in the begging Jack said that he didn't need anybody else to kill the pig and he could do it on his own and now he is saying how he needed the kids to catch the pig.
ReplyDelete-Marcello Brattesani
I completely agree with this whole statement. In the beginning of the book I always thought Jack was trying to show that he can be a good leader too and he just wasn’t given the chance. Thus, any opportunity he had he took it. By always calling the choir "his" or saying he can kill the pig alone. I also thought that maybe he was more realistic because instead of thinking about getting saved he was thinking about what until then, we need food. But I come to realize he did it to pretty much show off and now that he can’t live up to his word he needs help. I find it very symbolical that he doesn’t turn to any of the older kids to help him, he goes to the younger ones, and he knows it would be less judgment.
DeleteToward the end of chapter four we start seeing a large separation between Ralph and Jack. "Ralph turned. 'You could have had everyone when the shelters were finished. But you had to hunt-' 'We needed meat.'" (71)Ralph is yelling at Jack for letting the fire out because he wanted to hunt for food instead of tending to the fire. There was a boat in the horizon that would have seen the smoke from the fire if they had not let it burn out. Jack felt that it was necessary for him to hunt rather than tend to the fire. This shows how different they are in opinions. Jack is focused on living in the now and trying to make sure that they can survive whereas Ralph is still focused on being saved. Ralph thinks that they will be saved soon and is hoping for that. Jack is a bit more realistic and is trying to survive as if they wont be rescued for a while. If they were to cooperate and work together then their plans could work. The problem is that they are both leaders and so they do not like to listen to each other.They have the same goal just different ways to get there.
ReplyDelete“Jack planned his new face. He made one cheek and one eye-socket white, then he rubbed red over the other half of his face…he looked in astonishment, no longer at himself but at an awesome stranger” (63).
ReplyDeleteWhen Jack is about to go hunting, he paints his face for camouflage; the mask makes him feel “liberated from shame and self-consciousness” (64). By painting his face Jack is a stranger to himself, which allows him to commit any actions without feeling shameful. I think that Golding uses this mask to demonstrate the change in Jack’s character, which is no longer civilized, instead he is more violent. With the act of creating a mask, Jack seems to have lost his knowledge of reality. I find Golding’s choice of color interesting during this event- he uses red and white- two colors that when combined form pink. This makes me question the significance of the color pink in this book; is this just a coincidence or done purposefully?
Ana,I agree that when Jack painted his face he became a stranger to himself, and because of this he seems to be slipping more into the dark side, "'I cut the pig's throat,' said Jack, proudly, and yet twitched as he said it" (69). I found it weird that he twitched when he said that, it's almost like he isn't completely comfortable with the idea of killing and yet he's proud of being able to kill at the same time. Also to answer your question about the significance of pink I think that Golding purposefully does this to show how pink is a mix between red meaning savagery and white meaning pureness/innocence.
DeleteI agree with your idea that Jack is losing a sense of self when putting the mask on. It seems as if it is only a cover up that is hiding the innocent choir boy we were first introduced to in chapter 1. He is not only a stranger to the reader, but also as Golding says "an awesome stranger" to himself.
DeleteThe face-off between Ralph and Jack was described as, "...the brilliant world of hunting, tactic, fierce exhilaration, skill; and there was the world of longing and baffled commonsense" (71). This describes the struggle for leadership up to this point in the book, and I wouldn't be surprised the the struggle doesn't change. Jack is the hunter; he has power in the sense the if not for him, the group won't eat. Ralph, on the other hand, has kept them together this entire time. He's helped them become a community, and helped them to at least feel safe. Although these two sides go well together, they can hardly coexist in peace. These are going to be the two sides fighting the entire book, and there's a high risk of it tearing apart the group. I wonder what sides Piggy and Simon will take, and if their choices affect those of other kids.
ReplyDeleteI agree and believe that the conflict between them may not last the entire novel but instead be settled by betrayal and lines will have to be drawn between the group. There is no way that these two leaders who approach everything differently can coexist within the same society for much longer then they have now.
DeleteI agree to the extent that these two leaders can never coexist peacefully, but I believe that Jack's ideas for the society are not as well meaning as Ralph's seem to be. Jack hunts the pig not for food, because it seems that all men have enough food to survive, but to feel in control and the leader. At the beginning Jack fails to kill the pig and feels humiliated and horrible, this persue of the pig is his need for control over a silly animal becoming clear. Both of these men are trying to lead and persure their ideas in the way they know best, but as they do this they are counteracting each other and forcing neither leader to hold control.
DeleteAs the life on the island seems to become less of a problem for these lost children they also seem to lose the characteristics they took with them from home. When the hunters finally bring home the pig to eat a chant is created by the boys. They say "Kill the pig. Cut her throat. Bash her in" (75). After this moment I both lost and gained connections with the children marooned on the island. They once innocent and moral quest for survival had been corrupted by there separation from society. On a certain level I understand the excitement of obtaining your goal but to all tighter taunt the pig before its death seemed excessive and cruel. I wonder whether or not the corruption will continue to the point where I can no longer condone what these children do the island or its inhabitants.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting that you should say that, especially since the chapter is called "Painted Faces and Long Hair". That right there is a signal that these boys have shifted from the slightly civilized creature they started out as into something more barbaric. Like you said, it is understandable that they are straying from their innocence because of their desperate situation, but my question is this: is it reversible with a little bit of structure added to the island life?
DeleteThroughout this book, when it comes to leadership, I constantly find myself realizing that age is one of the most influential elements of a leader. Often times, the captain of a sports team among the older players, parents are obviously older than their children and they are leaders, and stereotypically teachers are older than their students. On page 62, "Henry was a bit of a leader this afternoon, because the other two were Percival and Johnny." After I read this, I started to think about how strange it is that when someone finds them self the oldest in a group of people, they emerge as the leader. At least that's how I have found a lot of situations to be. I started to question this idea I thought about what would happen if someone were potentially a leader but to people older than them. Would there be a sense of competition and nervousness? Would they feel a need to prove their worthiness? I was thinking about this idea because Henry, the leader only when the context pertains to him, would most likely not find himself a leader if Jack and Ralph were around. If they were around, their dominance would eliminate everything that Henry had working towards him when he was without them. Why does age seem to affect everything? It makes me question what would happen if a great leader emerged, potentially someone better than Ralph or Jack, but because they were younger, it made them harder to become dominant.
ReplyDeleteAs I read this book, it frustrates me more and more how mean they all are to Piggy. He is the smartest and (in my opinion)
ReplyDeletethe most capable of them all, and yet they continue to resent and bully him. One part that really stuck out to me was where
Piggy was petitioning the idea of a sundial and Ralph was completely blowing him off, and then we hear that "there had
grown up tacitly among the biguns the opinion that Piggy was an outsider, not only by accent, which did not matter, but by
fat, and ass-mar, and specs, and a certain disinclination to manual labor." (65). This is basically saying that it doesn't
matter to the boys if Piggy has the best ideas and has their best interests in mind; he's still fat and awkward and that
automatically makes him less of a person than they are and therefore not worth listening to (let alone let him lead them).
This might sound a tad cynical, but what if the point of this allegory is that society doesn't generally care about one's
capabilities (or at least the truly important ones) when selecting a leader, but rather his attractiveness and how he would
represent the people - what kind of message would he send; in other words, life is one big popularity contest, That being
said, if you don't fit in, you have no chance of making a difference let alone surviving (as Piggy has demonstrated)
I agree with your analysis on how the boys perceive Piggy. Above the quote you choose it also says "...but there was always a little pleasure to be got out of pulling his leg, even if one did by accident," which demonstrates that the other boys like to bully Piggy. I feel that Piggy is ignored because the other boys don't want to take the risk of also being considered weak if they defend Piggy.
DeleteI also agree. It frustrates me that they treat Piggy the way that they do, because it seems that he's the only one who hasn't been changed by the Island. He is probably the most sensible and realistic out of the group, yet the other kids don't listen to him because they think that he is a loser in society, even though society doesn't even really exist on the Island. I think that later in the book Piggy will finally be heard and people will realize his worth.
DeleteThe quote that stood out most to me in chapter 4 is "Clearly they were of the opinion that Jack had done the decent thing, had put himself in the right by his generous apology and Ralph, obscurely in the wrong"(72). It surprised me that the other boys actually thought that Ralph was wrong in the wrong, Ralph had every right to be mad at Jack. Jack's main priority was killing a pig, when it should have been helping Ralph improve their camp until they were rescued. The boys aren't starving, they don't need to eat pig. But they did need to keep the fire going, there was a ship right there in view! And they couldn't even send them a smoke signal because Jack took the hunters off of their task of keeping the fire burning. The fact that all Jack had to was say I'm sorry and he was forgiven and seen as the good guy by the boys was mind boggling to me, he lost their shot at being rescued and they didn't even seem upset, all because he caught a lousy pig.
ReplyDeleteIn this chapter the idea of an allegory was shown, not even as the broad picture but in excerpts that occured between the 'littuns and main characters in the book. As an older boy threw sand at a young boy building a caste there, "was the taboo of the old life. Round the squatting child was the protection of parents and school and policemen and the law" (62). As this happened I viewed human nature as being inherently fearful of wrong, if the idea in the past had consequences. The "taboo" of the world they lived in before made Roger question his wrongdoing, fearful of the consequences he once had. Also in this quote I saw how the more powerful or older character placed his power in the wrong way on someone that could not retaliate, making him somewhat confused and hurt. The premise of this book, being stuck on an island, forces characters into their natural state and in this quote Golding shows it as fearful and yearning for control and power. In todays world we see this even in our very government, as men in high positions try to place power on those lower.
ReplyDeleteI found it interesting in this chapter how much we see the society grow more and more. Even from the first chapter there had been an established hierarchy, but now we really see it turning into an elaborate political foundation. The “littleuns” for example represent the masses, as they often are not given names or descriptions, while the older kids are the political power meant to protect the masses. Then we see those like Roger or Maurice who do not have the best interests of the younger kids in mind. They represent those who have become crooked or corrupt. Then, in addition to all of this, we also see the tensions between Ralph and Jack rising, and Jack’s infatuation with hunting increases. I believe this is most likely due to the fact that Jack was not elected leader in the beginning. If he had, his obsession would have been replaced by his rightful duties as leader, and he would be more concerned with rescue rather than survival.
ReplyDeleteGood points Jake. I agree and see that the society at this point is developing and everyone is becoming to find their place. I see it as becoming more of a civilization and community rather remaining a bunch of boys stranded on an island. However, with the development of their society i think their values as a whole are developing. Not entirely in the best intrest of Ralph or Piggy though. Jack and the hunters seem to have looked towards a new way of life while Piggy and Ralph are holding on to the values of their old societies. im not sure who is the wrong one here. certainly, Piggy and Ralph are becoming outsiders and the odd men out.
DeleteIn this chapter, i saw the scene where the boat passes by as monumental and pivotal. After that happened the direction of the society seemed to change. I chose the line that the hunters speak just after catching the pig. Like savages they chant the lines, "kill the pig. Cut her throat. Spill her blood." too me, this scene looks like where the society will be headed. Golding made it that the boys had stared into the eyes of rescue and returning to civilization, yet the hunters had let the fire go out and the ship sailed away. it seemed like that represented the direction of their society and hopes of getting rescued has gone away. Not only did they lose the opportunity, Golding makes it so that they somewhat choose to let it slip away. The wants of the society were not in the direction of getting rescued but rather they were towards hunting and remaining on the island. I saw this scene as Ralphs hopes and authority leaving the society and these new values of hunting growing much stronger and much more wanted.
ReplyDeleteI agree completely! Slowly you see the boys begin to grow away from their own society, and almost forget about being rescued. It seems to me one of the only boys who has not yet become animalistic is Piggy, who attempts to cling to his old way of life by suggesting they build a sundial or create a clock. While Piggy attempts to create order, the other boys long for feeling control. The way the hunters described the killing of the pig shocked me, especially in comparison to how they had shuddered at the thought of killing a living thing earlier in the book. I believe the driving force of the hunters need to kill is the need for control, a feeling that resides in all the boys. I think eventually it will overtake all of them.
DeleteA quote that stood out to me was “they had built castles in the sand at the bar of the little river.” (59). I find it interesting how Golding refers to them as castles in the sand instead of just simply calling them sand castles. Is this reflecting how they are still childlike and still have much child behavior, and at the same time they are going up, thus, calling it by a more sophisticated name. Also they have the time to play with sand and make a fake ideal society instead of working on their own true shelter and food. Do they still think of this island as play time and fun like a fellow classmate said once before? Or are they thinking about what to do next? Even though they realize they are on their own do they really know what it’s like to be left alone and the consequences? I think this will foreshow who will be powerful and better leaders at the end of the book and who will be very weak and still a dreamer with non-mature minds.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you Sydney that the young boys need to realize that it is not all fun and games and that they need to grow up. But I don't feel that they re mature at all but the author expects them to mature and that slowly they will.
Delete…he looked in astonishment, no longer at himself but at an awesome stranger” This quote represents perfectly Jack's identity, and how at this point it is very hard to tell who he really is. Jack had become so obsessed with killing this pig, that when they didn't take care of the signal fire, he still could not get the fact that he finally caught the pig off of his mind. He didn't care that he failed the whole community, he only cared that he finally accomplished his goal. It also seems that this face paint could represent how he's changed ever since he's tried to take on the responsibility of hunting. He seemed to be at least more sensible before, where as now he is almost a savage, unknown by himself, and to others, and doesn't even get along with Ralph anymore. The way he slapped Piggy right across the face is a sure sign of his anger and savagery that is building with him as their stay on the island goes on.
ReplyDeleteIn chapter 4, there is a clear struggle emerging between the boys fighting to keep civilized and the ones who are becoming more savage. It seems that all the boys, although they have good intentions and want to create a well functioning society, become taken over by the need for power and control. An example of this is Henry, when playing with fish, who uses a stick to control them. He "became absorbed beyond mere happiness as he felt himself exercising control over living things"(61). I think Henrys feelings of satisfaction when dominating others foreshadows how this feeling will take over the boys on the island.
ReplyDeleteI agree Ruby, that the boys are all finding to be the leader and control the island. Both the savages and humanistic people have gained control somehow, but do you really think Henry, one of the littleuns could take over? I feel like age and adulthood plays a huge role in the story and being young would make it very hard to become a leader; or even overthrow Ralph
DeleteOh dear no thats not what I meant! I think the description of Henry feeling satisfied when controlling the fish reflects the rest of the boys need for power. I didn't mean Henry would take over, I meant that this need to control is within all the boys, and in the end it will overtake them.
DeleteIn chapter 4 of "Lord of the Flies", a few quotes stood out to me that really exemplify Golding's understanding and opinion of human nature, and theoretically how people would act if they were removed from society. The first quote is on page 61, when Henry (who is not even a major character in the story at this point) is playing on the sand: "He became absorbed beyond mere happiness as he felt himself exercising control over living things" (61). I think this quote is really important when considering Golding's views on human nature because here he is stating his opinion extremely explicitly and fairly simply too. Throughout the whole story, the notion of power and what its effect on people is finds itself being repeated over and over. Golding discusses the ideas of having actual physical power over people, having a more mental control of people, and of the effects that being out of power can have. In this quote, he writes about the joy and literal happiness that one can attain from having power over other "living things". Another quote from chapter 4 that stood out to me in regards to Golding's dissertation on power is on page 73, when Ralph lights the fire after Jack returns with the hunted pig: "Before these fantastically attractive flowers of violet and red and yellow, unkindness melted away. They became a circle of boys round a campfire, and even Piggy and Ralph were half-drawn in" (73). I found this quote to be so significant because it shows another argument that Golding makes about human nature; here Golding shows how simple people really are, and how something as basic as a fire can literally "melt" away the same feelings that cause people to commit drastic actions. The tension and anger that Ralph and Jack shared just moments before the fire was lit were emotions that could've caused either one to do something crazy and perhaps harmful to the group. However, just by lighting a fire, Ralph and Jack became distracted from their anger and tension, and along with everyone else, gathered around the fire.
ReplyDeleteReading this chapter brought a clear distinction between the savages and civil people. Once finally killing the pig Jack becomes an animal; " 'I cut the pig's throat,' said Jack, proudly, and yet twitched as he said it" (69). This quote shows Jack's change as a result of living on the island. He has dedicated his entire time on the island to killing this pig, although he is proud there is a sense of inhumanity in his actions. The tension on the island has increased as well because of Jack's behaviour. Focused on killing the pig, Jack didnt even notice he let the fire go out. Then when they had the chance to get saved by the passing boat, the fire had gone out due to Jack's carelessness. He was too preoccupied with the meat even when Ralph addressed the situation, "We can light the fire again. You should have been with us, Ralph. We had a smashing time." (69). Jack has lost all self control, and his motives are not more important than being saved.
ReplyDeleteI agree. It seems as if Jack has only taken interest into getting meat and that is the only thing keeping him on the island. Although he offers the others to eat(besides Piggy), he only wants to do it to boost his self esteem and redeem himself for his earlier failure. I think that him being obsessed with killing may result in later conflicts in the future.
DeleteOne of the quotes that stood out to me was "He was the only boy on the island whose hair never seemed to grow"(64). This was significant because we are starting to see how everyone on the island are turning into savages. On the other hand it seems as if Piggy is the only one who still remains civil. This quote was meant to isolate Piggy from the rest, as he is the only one who has reasonable ideas of how to get rescued. His hair shows how he is still an English schoolboy while the rest of the boys start to obtain animal like characteristics away from home.
ReplyDeleteI found your analysis of this quote very interesting because I used the same quote but never thought of it like this. I thought that by says his hair never seems to grow is taking him apart of the social norm but yet not in a positive way. I thought he is still odd and at home he would be picked on and on the island he has been picked on. Which to me says a lot? A lot of the boys on this island look at this island as; I’m away from home, even if it means I need to learn survival skills. But piggy has the same reactions at both locations. But maybe you are right it could be a symbol that he is still civil.
DeleteIn the beginning of this chapter, the author focuses his attention on the
ReplyDeleteyounger boys: "littluns". These boys have the luxurious life on this
island, they only eat, sleep, and play doing the least as possible. For
example, "They ate most of the day, picking fruit where they cold reach it
and not particular about ripeness and quality" (59), this represents the
lack of determination to be found on this island. It seems also that the
author punishes the boys for doing nothing all day because from eating
these fruits they get diarrhea and horrible stomach aches. But why are
the boys not helping, is it because they are young or haven't come to the
realization that this is not a vacation? With them having fun and eating
in the morning, sleeping in the afternoon, and eating an relaxing in the
evening the littluns carry the characteristics of vacationers. When will
they wake up and realize that instead of it being a vacation it is a life
and death situation?
"He was the only boy on the island whose hair never seemed to grow. The rest were shock-headed, but Piggy's hair still lay in wisps over his head as though baldness was his natural state and this imperfect covering would soon go, like the velvet on a young stag's antlers." (64) This quote stood out to me because of its vivid description. The fact that piggy's hair didn’t grow and all the other boys already had long hair seems very interesting. Maybe this will foreshadow how piggy is at the end of the book. I feel that as though this has been an island for these boys to get away from home, whether it was in a good way or bad, Piggy still has the same problems. He is still picked on and I feel that even though maybe not having your hair look caveman like is a good thing in this case it's not because piggy is still not apart of the social norm.
ReplyDeleteThe line that most stood out to me was, "His mind was crowded with memories; memories of the knowledge that had come to them when they closed in on the struggling pig, knowledge that they had outwitted a living thing, imposed their will upon it, taken away its life like a long satisfying drink." This line clearly illuminates the power and satisfaction Jack feels after killing the pig. Although, he claims that hunting was pertinent, he knows the main reason why he's happy is the quenching of his thirst of overpowering not only because he killed the pig to eat it, he OVERPOWERED it and made it his victim.
ReplyDelete