"There was a ship. Out there. You said you'd keep the fire going and you let it out!" (pg 70)
I found jack so ignorant in this chapter because he was so full of himself. Instead of watching the fire and making sure that it didn't go out, he left the fire unattended to go kill a pig. The boys had noticed that there was smoke coming from a ship and if they had seen the smoke from the island, they could have gone to rescue them. But the fire had gone out because of Jack. Jack had said early that before getting rescued he would like to kill the pig that he failed to kill. And this is what exactly happened, he killed the pig instead of possibly getting rescued. His actions affected the whole group and now I believe that Ralph and Piggy lost the little respect that they had for him. Ralph and Piggy from the start of the novel have put others before them: Ralph building the huts for the younger boys and Piggy coming up with smart ideas for rescue, but Jack just cares about himself.
I agree with you Jack is still hung up on killing a pig, he doesn't seem to car what happens to the rest of them. As long as he is OK and he gets to kill the pig then he simply does not care.I think that the problem is that Jack is trying to prove to himself and others that he could kill a pig, since the first time he failed to do so.
"Ralph spoke. 'You let the fire go out.' jack checked, vaguely irritated by this irrelevance but too happy to let it worry him. 'We can light the fire again. You should have been with us, Ralph. We had a smashing time. The twins got knocked over-' 'we hit the pig-'" (69). Jack goes on and keeps explaining how he killed the pig, what he did, and everything that was going on. Ralph is mad the fire went out because the ship that passed by could've seen the fire and rescued them. He keeps mentioning this to Jack and Jack brushes it off his shoulder as if it really is of non importance to him. He was irritated that what Ralph said had nothing to do with him killing the pig. The fact Jack keeps repeating what happened with the killing of the pig really shows me the idea of hunting and killing has taken control of him. It isn't about catching meat anymore it's more about him feeling more superior and better by killing pigs. It shows the mental state he's in now and how he is forgetting about the situation he's in. Him killing the pig is an accomplishment for himself that he's proud of and wants to show off, assuming from how much he talks about it in this chapter. He can really careless about the fire going out because later on he keeps saying "we can light it again" but he doesn't seem to realize they could've gotten rescued if he didn't let the fire go out. Ralph seems to be getting fed up with Jack always talking about hunting since they always bicker like a married couple. It makes me wonder if Jack continues to act like this, having this animal side to him, will the others grow more fear towards him or what will Ralph do?
This point of the book was also an eye opener when it came to my perspective of Jack. Even after Ralph told him that they could have been rescued, Jack isn't very shocked. His excuse was that they needed meat. Living on the island was no longer about getting rescued but about feeling the power that he couldn't feel at home. He is really taking advantage of the island in a way that shows that he doesn't want to go home, unlike everyone else.
"'You should have seen the blood!'... 'You and your blood, Jack Merridew! You and your hunting! We might have gone home!'" (70) A large important part of this chapter was about almost getting rescued. Jack was in charge of watching, and keeping the fire up; but his obsessive ambition to kill a pig got in the way. When he finally does kill the pig, it was the wrong time to be worried about that. By going home they could have had PLENTY of pig, but Jack was too busy in trying to prove himself. He keeps trying to assure everyone by saying, 'yay I got a pig finally', and, 'we can light the fire again'. I think at this point Jack really sees his damage he caused, especially when Ralph starts to go at him. Something else that I realized is that Ralph really became the chief at the time that was too late. "I was chief, and you were going to do what I said. You talk. But you can't even build huts -- then you go off hunting and let out the fire--" I think here we see a different sight to Ralph: He doesn't seem as laid back, or unrealistic as he did a couple of pages ago. I hope he continues to stay on everyone about working hard to survive and get rescued though.
I agree, I think that Jack realized that he just ruined the groups chances of being rescued. I think that by killing the pig, Jack was trying to show that he was sort of rebelling against the old conservative lifestyle he had back home. I don't think Jack is able to handle the new lifestyle this group was challenged with. Also, I agree I think Jack is beginning to become angry with the situation they are in. Ralph is beginning to come off frustrated with the situation and I don't think he will be able to handle it for much longer.
"'They might have seen us. We might have gone home—'... 'You and your blood, Jack Merridew! You and your hunting! We might have gone home—'" (64,65).
In this chapter one of the main focuses is Jack's ignorance. All he cares about is killing a big. He completely forgets about his responsibility of keeping the fire going. If he had done this then they would have gotten rescued. I think the quote is significant because it is Piggy who is the one shouting at Jack. Piggy is always quiet and afraid of Jack but he finally cracks. The fact that this is Piggy's voice is even more significant because he is they shy and nervous boy out of the group. Jack's lack of care has proven to begin to effect the other kids and how they view him as a leader. Jack is completely brainwashed and all of his thoughts no longer have the interest of all the boys as a whole, but only of him killing the pig. I think Jack's change of attitude is really going to effect how the boys act and obviously how long it is going to take them to get rescued.
Jane, I agree with you! Jack's ignorance had a huge effect on the boys. If he kept the fire going they would have been rescued but he was too busy hunting and trying to prove himself. Also, I feel bad for Piggy, he finally voiced his opinion and in return he got beaten up by Jack. I hope later on in the book, Jack and all the other boys realize how helpful and intellectual Piggy is and I hope they feel bad for always victimizing Piggy.
As I was reading chapter 4, I found it strange how the hunters where chanting, ““Kill the pig. Cut her throat. Spill her blood” (69). This just shows how bad things are getting the island and as we mentioned this class, I feel like they boys are losing their grip on reality. The choir boys are beginning to forget their civilized behavior, and they are becoming barbaric, especially Jack. Also, this quote clearly showed how much hunting meant to the boys and that they were willing to let the fire die out just to catch a pig. If the hunters didn’t let the fire die out they could have been rescued, but instead they were hunting. The boys were so consumed with hunting that they changed their priorities; all of a sudden hunting became much more important than being rescued. Also, “Spill her blood” (69) displays that the boys are beginning to become more violent. In the beginning of the book Jack did not slaughter the pig, “because of the unbearable blood” (31) but now he’s chanting with the rest of the hunters, “Spill the blood” this transition shows how savage they have become due to living in the island for so long.
I totally agree with you and I too find it interesting how their transition from choir boys (which suggests they have religious values) to violent and irresponsible boys happened to suddenly. I think it's interesting that the twins listened to Jack and abandoned the fire despite Ralph's strict orders. They would rather kill a pig than continue to try to get rescued. What does that say about them, or even people as a whole? My real question is what caused this transition in the boys? What is it about the island of the lack of order? Also just to point out I think it's interesting the author calls the pig a "her". It could be nothing, but I wonder if there's any significance.
The passage that caught my eye in this chapter was when Jack was doing his face paint: "He capered toward Bill, and the mask was a thing on its own, behind which Jack hid, liberated from shame and self-consciousness" (64). Throughout the book so far we have been given hints that in Jack's past life he was a sad, perhaps even depressed little boy. Now, this quote almost says it straight out. With the mask, he is "liberated from shame and self-consciousness". My question is, why? He was already head choir boy, proved to be an intimidating and orderly leader, and people listened to him. What is he trying to prove with this new cruel and gruesome persona of his? People always say that money doesn't bring happiness. My guess is neither does power, although Jack still, while creating this new form, seeks power. I'm honestly confused by his intentions. He obviously is a troubled boy, and previously in the book the author describes him as ugly, which may connect to the fact the "mask" that covers his face liberates his self-consciousness. But what about shame? To be as violent as Jack is, I guess you somewhat would have to abolish your shame. Maybe Jack knew he was somewhat cruel as himself, yet now he is someone/something different. I'm not exactly sure where I'm going with this, but what I'm trying to get across is that Jack is a confused character, not necessarily evil as others have suggested. I think he's just a boy with issues, who finally found his escape, just how many of us may have hobbies to relieve stress. However, his escape may not be the greatest route, as many people experience as well.
Jack's face paint transforms him, certainly, but I think that he was transformed far before he slapped mud on himself: wearing the paint simply solidifies the action, and the change, and might not actually be all that internally revolutionizing for Jack at all. I agree that he is not actually quite as evil as everyone else seems to believe, but I don't think the mask is there to cover up for his self-esteem issues. Instead, I think Jack's mask is his way of; for himself, the other boys and the reader; showing off this change and self-revival, sort of explaining physically what was already there in psychological form.
"In his other life Maurice had recieved chastisement for filling a younger eye with sand." This quote struck me because the boys no longer even recognize the people they once were. They are completely different now that they have been on the island, and as Maurice shows, can think back to their "other life" without regret or longing--it is simply a completely different existence. At the same time, however, the boys still cling (however subconsciously) to the lessons they learned in their past, explaining Maurice's uncomfortable feelings about kicking sand in the littlun's faces. That one last thread of civilization is what holds the boy's society together, but by calling it a completely "different life," it is easy to see that these threads are fast unravelling.
"They accepted the pleasures of the morning, the bright sun, the whelming sea and sweet air, as a time when play was good and life so full of hope was not necessary and therefore forgotten." This is the second sentence of the fourth chapter, i find it interesting the author is creating such a positive feel for the story. The children seem to be forgetting all their troubles and enjoying themselves very much. they are at this point in what seems to be paradise. They also seem not to want to leave, "hope was not necessary and therefore forgotten", who would want to abandon that island.
I agree. The boys are looking at the island as a land of paradise in this quote. However, I think they are also forgetting civilization. After being left alone on the island for a long time, they will lose their sense of order. Perhaps they will even become savage. When liberated, do we all become savages? It is interesting that Golding starts out Chapter 4 with the boys feeling happy to be stranded on the island, and then having them end up frustrated at losing their chance of escape from this “paradise”. This leads me to a question: is complete freedom a good thing? Or will it always end up with problems?
i agree that the boys seem happy on the island in this portion of the book but i don't think that they really are. this quote is interesting because the author specifically writes "hope was not necessary and therefore forgotten" this is an example of how people take advantage of what they have and forget what life was like without it even if they only have it for a brief time.
"'With the conch. I'm calling a meeting even if we have to go on into the dark. Down on the platform. When I blow it. Now.' He turned and walked off, down the mountain." (75) This quote was the last line of the chapter and it stood out to me because it talks about the reappearing symbol of the conch. Again in this chapter, the conch symbolizes power. This was right after Ralph became angry at Jack for not keeping the fire lit, Ralph can no longer handle the, what appears to be, ignorance of the hunters and he calls a meeting. The chapter ends with Ralph walking away angry, none of the boys protested against Ralph, which means that the conch has a great power that the boys will not argue against. The fact that Ralph has the conch gives him great power leading the boys. The conch symbolizes power also because Ralph states that the meeting will continue in the darkness. The conch seems to overrule everything against it like the dark and no one protests. Also, I find it interesting that Ralph starts the sentence with, "with the conch," this lead me to believe that no one is willing to argue against the conch because it is their only sense of order and power in society.
I think this is a really important part too. lately to conch shell has been calling everyone to meetings, but not so much anything else. I think a big part in the shell reappearing has to do with Ralph wanting to make sure they get reused, and survive. When Jack screws all of this up when HIS fire isn't being watched, Ralph realizes how much he needs to be more of a leader.
"In his other life Maurice had received chastisement for filling a younger eye with sand. Now, though there was no parent to let fall a heavy hand, Maurice still felt the unease of wrongdoing"(65). This quote stood out to me because it refers to Maurice's "other life." This line has a sort of eerie feel because it connotes that the boys are living completely different lives and their situation truly sinks in. I also found it interesting that Golding describes as feeling "the unease of wrongdoing" even though there was no adult there to chastise him. I think that that says something about Golding's thoughts on human nature and on children. Maurice felt uneasy, but then proceeded to go off for a swim as if nothing had happened. Golding has the boys naturally set up a hierarchy based on age, and he goes on to make a lot of points about how their ages are affecting their behavior.
I agree that they live lives different to what priorly they were. When I read this passage I saw a sort of flashback, because Maurice is new to this freedom of doing bad with no repercussions. I feel like this happening to everyone on the island. I see this a lot in Jack, who is really excited about the idea of hunting, and being the man of the island, even though he isn't the leader, and I see how his past experience as a leader has affected this.
“Roger’s arm was conditioned by a civilization that knew nothing of him and was in ruins,” (62). In the beginning, Roger misses a few aims at Henry when he is throwing stones. He is not used to hurting other people. This is because his old life, the civilized life, shaped him into a moral, orderly boy. But Roger, finally liberated from the clutches of society, unleashes his inner sadist on Henry. I think Roger’s sadistic characteristic compares to us because we are all sadistic at times. It is a part of human nature. However, is each and every one of us sadistic? And why is this a part of human nature? The quote conveys that without order, society would collapse in ruins. People like Roger would not be able to control their immoral humanistic qualities. Parents, school, policemen and the law are essential to keep civilization in order.
I agree completely. To me, this quote illustrates the whole central theme of this story, the clash between civiliation and savagery. It is probably true that society would never survive on its own withut rules and order but when you think about it, why is that? Are humans that savage and cruel that we need other humans to tell us what to do? And if our own nature is to be savage, than why should we have to repress that? I know it is tabboo to kill and eat others, but it is tabboo in OUR society. In some others, it may not be. All I am trying to say, is that what do we mean when we say savage? To me, there are still many savage aspects in our society even today, but who am I to say that when there is still such a thin dividing line between savage and civilized in the first place.
"He [Jack] began to dance and his laughter became a bloodthirsty snarling." Chapter 4, pg. 64
This quote shows the end of Jack's transformation into a killer. This doesn't go only for Jack, I think he is symbolic for the rest of the boys. They are all loosing their hold on real life. I think Golding uses the ship that passes by the island as a reality check for everyone. I say this because Jack forgets to tend the fire, in order to kill the pig. Distraction seems to be the main problem on the island. The littleuns also got distracted from the building of the structures.
Jack, i totally agree with you, and the question rises- Is Jacks transformation symbolic for the rest of the boys? I agree on how Jack is really not thinking straight and he let the island get to his head and change him. It is quite scary how if all the other members become like him and start killing each other.
I agree with you because Jack has turned into a violent character. I feel that he doesn't know how to control himself and he's taking out his frustraction in a violent way. When he decides to punch and beat up Piggy when he continuosly repeated that they could have been rescued from the ship passing by if he hadn't let the fire out, this shows that he agressively took out his anger on Piggy. I think that at the end of the novel, Jack is going to be a completely different person because everything that he has built inside of him, will eventually explode.
"He was the only boy on the island whose hair never seemed to grow...his natural state and this imperfect covering would soon go, like the velvet on a young stag's antlers" (64).
This line stood out to me a lot because it once again showed how Piggy just isn't like any of the other boys. However, this quote shows a lot of power within Piggy. We discussed in class that the growing of long shaggy hair symbolizes the jungles effect on the boys and how it has taken away their past civilized looks and has made them all the same and more animalistic. However, Piggy is the only ones hair that hasn't grown, meaning Piggy is the only one who has really stayed civilized and hasn't fallen into the life of killing and anarchy that the other boys have. The quote also points to a dark future for piggy. Soon his hair will grow like young deer, and he will begin to grow and let the jungle take over. So far Piggy has tried to help the group and has tried to help the group survive, however, will he start to become more radical as the book progresses?
I think that this makes a lot of sense. Not only is Piggy the only one continuously trying to be civilized, but he is also the only one who is paying attention to his past. He often refers back to what his auntie taught him. This makes Piggy seem less independent, like he can't survive without the rule of an adult. I think by the "young stag's antlers" it means that Piggy will not be able to cope without the rule of an adult and he will start to unravel and become very withdrawn. Or he will unravel and go a bit crazy.
This quote also stood out to me because it shows that throughout being on the island, Piggy has stuck to himself and who he is. He has not changed in order to fit in with others because he has already found himself and is happy with who he is, although it would make his life easier if he gained the respect from others. I don't think he will change to become like the other boys because so far he hasn't and he has stood his ground on his own opinions and hasn't really let others push him around to some extent. I do think he will keep fighting to get the other boys to listen to him. I think he could become more radical depending on weather or not his relationships with the other boys begins to change. I do think that Piggy will do what is best for survival for himself no matter what, but I'm not sure if the other boys will follow.
"They ate most of the day, picking up fruit where they could reach it and not particular about ripeness and quality. They were used now to stomachaches and a sort of chronic diarrhea. They suffered untold terrors in the dark and huddled together to comfort. Apart from food and sleep, they found time for play, aimless and trivial, in the white sand by the bright water. They cried for their mothers much less often than might have been expected; they were very brown, and filthily dirty,"(63). I chose this quote because it shows how overwhelming this situation has been for everyone. Although, this particular quote focuses on the younger of the kids, it embodies the overall feeling that the average kid would feel. This abrupt independence that is put on everyone forces them to play the roles of adults, or even just be free, but is freedom to much for a kid to handle? While throwing rocks at Henry, Roger realizes that "there was a space round Henry, perhaps six yards in diameter, into which he dare not throw. Here, invisible yet strong, was the taboo of the old life. Round the squatting child was the protection of parents and school and police and the law,"(67). This quote also stood out to me because it illustrates the disguised need for protection and rule. These boys want to be told what to do and what to have somebody to depend on rather than themselves. Do you think that Ralph feels this way too? "Of all the boys, he was the most at home there; but today irked by the mention of rescue, the useless, footling mention of rescue, even the green depths of water and the shattered, golden sun held no balm."
"His mind was crowded with memories; memories of the knowledge that had come to them when they closed in on the struggling pig, knowledge that they had outwitted a living thing, imposed their will upon it, taken away its life like a long, satisfying drink. " (70) To me, this quote clearly demonstrates how the civilized, choir boy side of Jack is totally gone. As soon as he put on the mask and the fire extinguished, it not only extinguished their only hope of being rescused, but it also extinguished Jack's morality. He totally forgot about the fire, and forgot about being rescued in general, in favor of blood and killing. He feels strong, renewed and once he put on the face paint, he felt all of his troubles and past weaknesses fade away behind him. The only knowledge that he feels is useful now, is the knowledge to kill, and the "wonderful" memories that come with it. I also see a big comparison between both Jack and Henry. They both love the fact that they can dictate and terrorize other living things and get a joy out of watching them outsmart it and suffer. I think this just goes to show the natural instinct that we have as humans as a whole - the instinct to inflict pain on others, especially those that are weaker than us. Whether for survival means or not, we still enjoy doing it. Just think of the joy we had as little kids when we killed worms or squashed aunts. To me, it's the same thing.
however I think that instead of Jack putting on the mask purely to feel stronger, I think he puts it on purely to forget all about the situation he is in. I think that the mask allows him re invent himself, a Jack 2.0 if you would. The last thing Jack wants to do is admit there is a problem, for Jack saying that there is a problem would be admitting defeat. The mask is away for Jack to hide from his problems. A couple lines down there is a quote that proves this nicely, "Jack, faced at once with too many awful implications, ducked away from them." (p.70) It is clear that the island is taking a toll on all the boys, and especially Jack.
P.S. I too enjoy the good old days when I squashed my aunts.
"Roger gathered a handful of stones and began to throw them...At last he saw one and laughed, looking for the friend who was teasing him. But Roger had whipped behind the palm again, was leaning against it breathing quickly, his eyelids fluttering."
I do not understand this passage. The boy Roger follows one of the "littluns", Henry, to the water's edge and throws rocks at him. Well, not actually at him, but around him, Roger won't throw the stones directly at Henry, he instead chooses to throw them near by in the water. I don't get a couple things about this bit, why is Roger throwing stones at a little kid? Why does he choose to just throw them around the little kid? And why does he hide when the little kid looks around to see who is throwing the stones? The most interesting part to me is why he chooses to only throw the stones near Henry, instead of actually at him. To me, it shows that Roger is hanging on to the little part of home he still has, the rules. Back home, he would never be able to throws rocks at little kids without being severely punished. Now, either he hasn't been on the island long enough to totally forget all the former rules, or he is trying to replicate his old life because he misses it so much. Either way, I think this is a sign of increasing desperation and also insanity for the boys.
"You talk. But you can't even build huts- then you go off hunting- and let the fire out" (71).
This passage in particular was quite interesting and i think this chapter it really showed the negligence of jack. He clearly does not care about the other children on the island and i think he does not really care about going home, he just wants to hunt. The quote i have wrote on the top i think describes Jack's role on this stranded island. All he does is talk, as talking i mean argue with Ralph and other member, make fun of piggy. Then he attempts to build a huts and remembers it's not important to him and quits. And in this case, he does not do his job and he lets the firs go out. Jack is ignorant and i believe he will be the downfall of this group and it will affect there survival. What i would like to discuss in class is, if jack's group members are starting to become like Jack, and only thinking about meat. Also what i found interesting was how when they killed the pig they all starting chanting, and the way Jack describes all the blood and how he slit the pigs throat just makes me sick. Overall this reading was interesting.
I agree that Jack no longer cares about the others or getting home. I think the important question is why does he stop caring? I think the reason that he stops caring is because he is the most threatened by the others and is the most insecure. This may be the reason he hides behind the face paint, because he can be someone else and hide from the others. He feels that he needs to look out for himself to ensure that he is safe. These are his survival instincts. Although they are starting to get in the way of the group, as shown when he goes searching for the pig rather than keeping the fire alive and inevitably saving them.
"Here, invisible yet strong, was the taboo of the old life. Round the squatting child was the protection of parents and school and policemen and the law. Roger's arm was conditioned by a civilization that knew nothing of him and was in ruins." (62) This quote stuck out to me because it demonstrates how these children have had trouble putting their past lives behind them. As a whole these kids obey the rules that were created for them by their parents because they don't know any other way. Golding shows how even though nobody is stopping them from doing whatever they please they have their lives dictated by a set of invisible unsaid rules, "invisible yet strong, was the taboo of the old life." Golding uses the word "taboo" to show that the rules set by the society they used to live in that were proscribed as unacceptable are still true and very evident. Without these unseen laws that dictate their lives they would struggle to maintain their harmony. This is shown through the actions of Jack Merridew. He does not obey the unsaid rules and because of this ignorance he destroys the group's ability to work together. While these rules are not enforced they are expected because without them, the island would turn into a place of chaos. Golding also uses the words "Roger's arm was conditioned by a civilization," to show that Roger had the rules of his old life engrained within him and because of this he did not have the ability to disobey them. Jack has found a way to make his own rules and even though he is the only one he is dramatically affecting the group. If one person does this much damage, how much damage can others influenced by Jack's actions do?
“Jack planned his new face…he looked in the pool for his reflection, but his breathing troubled the mirror” (63).
I think that this quote shows that Jack is not only changing himself on the inside, but also trying to change his appearance to who he is now. He has trouble looking at the reflection and recognizing that it is himself who he is staring at. A few sentences later in the text however, it says “he looked in astonishment, no longer at himself but an awesome stranger” (63). He does in fact like who he is turning into, and I think he may respect himself more for that. This transformation did create some conflict between him and Ralph. Jack became more of a free spirit and stopped thinking so much about everything, which then caused him to forget about the fire. In the beginning Jack would have been egger to get off the island, but now he could care less. I think he enjoys being on the island because he didn’t like the strict rule the choir brought. He enjoys having no real schedule, but instead jobs to do however he wants them to be done. The island has given Jack more freedom to become someone else, but he may be straying from who he really is.
I agree with what you are saying about Jack. I think the mask he makes is just a figure of speech, he is actually going through many changes mentally and is attempting to make them physical in order to properly face them. I also noticed that when he looked into the water, his breath caused it to ripple. I think this symbolizes how easily his new image can be shattered. He is trying to portray himself in a certain way so that others will look up to him, but if he is not careful his entire image could fall apart.
"Ralph watched them, envious and resentful. Not till they flagged and the chant died away did he speak. 'I'm calling an assembly.' One by one, they halted, and stood watching him."(75) I think that Ralph is conflicted. He's torn between the ideas of being the alpha male, and being a good leader. He can only be one, because it was only practical to mend the fire, because getting fed meat was much less important than getting saved. I think Ralph feels like he's failed the whole island by allowing Jack to sneak off like this, because the kids do not know better than to be excited by a pig, because that is immediately exciting and they do not have long attention spans. He can't prove a really good argument towards them, because their brains aren't developed enough to see the problem. He wants to be the one to make sure that he worries about the island's issues for those unable to do it themselves. Is this going to pressure him to change? Is he going to lose his hold as a leader?
I see what you are saying and can follow your train of thought here and adding on it seems like since you said Ralph is struggling to differentiate himself as the leader and alpha male which is kind of similar, Jack seems to be doing the same. Since Jack was not dubbed cheif I think he tries to prove himself by being the one to supply everyone with food, and a pig at that. He also carries his knife with him at all times and hunts to make himself look more masculine, tough and a born leader. I think conflict may arouse later in the story between the two boys.
"He (piggy) was the only boy on the island whose hair never seemed to grow"
This quote shows the state of the boys compared to Piggy. In class we talked about how the other boys hair has grown to be long and how they have burnt skin. I believe that the author uses their hair to show status of their society. The fact that Piggy's hair has not grown shows that he is the only one that still has a grasp of the world. He in fact is the only one that still hopes that they will be rescued. Piggy is the only one that has not modified his lifestyle to the islands standards. He is the only civilized character left in the story because the other children, have been burnt by the sun showing that they have been branded with the islands rod. Piggy also is the only one trying to operate on the other worlds standard while the others are indulging in a simplified lifestyle. Piggy tries to make a sun dial so that they can operate on the worlds time but Ralph says no. This shows that Ralph has seen that the world has given up on them and thinks that he has no need to conform to their standards when he feels that his standards are more adequate and logical for the time being.
This is a really interesting analysis of the quote. And I think you are spot on with it. Piggy serves as a comparison and him standing still almost makes him a clock. Him being the same makes the other kids changes more significant.
I agree with you John. It even actually shows how Piggy is different from everyone else on this island. He is the one who understands what it takes to survive on this island. Throughout this whole book, no one sees any potential in Piggy and underestimates him. I think if Piggy somehow gains the same power as the conch he will be able to have an affect on everyone on this island including Ralph.
"Yet there was a space round Henry, perhaps six yards in diameter, into which he dare not throw. Here, invisible yet strong, was the taboo of the old life. Round the squatting child was the protection of parents and school and policemen and the law. Roger's arm was conditioned by a civilization that knew nothing of him and was in ruins." (62) I chose this quote because it gives a window into the psychology of a natural mind. These kids are thrown into a totally unheard of, inexperienced environment. Even in this natural state, with rescue and civilization in the furthest corner of the sub-conscious mind, morality trumps instinct. No matter how much they may cherish or dread the fleeting thoughts of a past civilization they used to belong to, it will always be evident. Henry watches as a young companion frolics by the ocean, aiming small stones to be thrown near his friend, but not at his friend, never at his friend. For this small act, which may not even cross the mind of some in a different situation, is the difference between civilization and the jungle. It is the last bit of the life they used to belong to. If he were to throw the stone at his friend he would be abandoning his last bit of insanity, and morality that society has spent instilling in him from birth. It is interesting to watch how the excess fat melts off the children, leaving raw skeletons of the purely instinctual necessity of emotions. How will the kids grow and evolve the longer they spend in this habitat?
"They obeyed the summons of the conch, partly because Ralph blew it, and he was big enough to be a link with the adult world of authority"(63)
This quote reminded me of the fact that they rely on the conch to give them orders. It makes me also think that this whole society relies on what a conch has to called them to do. Although this might keep the society in order, I feel that this also question others to why they have to obey this conch. I also found it interesting how they mentioned the power between Ralph and the conch again which is significant to the book. The littluns rely on Ralph to have this connection with the adults and thats why they trust him as their leader. They always have the sense to rely on someone because they still did not come of age and don't know how the world "works". I wonder if the littluns will come of age in a sense of rebelling towards Ralph? Will he always be the one the littluns look up to for answers?
I agree that the conch is the only tangible object in the island that gives the boys orders. To answer your question on why the boy’s have to obey the conch because, it’s the closest gateway to civilization. And, with this conch they feel a sense of some order and values even though adults are not around. Especially with the littluns, because due to their age that they have no sense of direction or anyone to look up to for orders on what to do.
"Jack stood up as he said this, the bloodied knife in his hand. The two boys faced each other. There was the brilliant world of hunting, tactics, fierce exhilaration, skill; and there was the world of longing and baffled commonsense. Jack transferred the knife to his left hand and smudged blood over his forehead as he pushed down the plastered hair"(71). This quote stood out to me because the boys had a chance to finally escape off of this island, yet the dilema of Jack's obsession interfered with it. Jack has seemed to influence the other boys to care about hunting as much as him; acknowledging this I believe that if Jack can do this(win the views of other boys) as well as killing a pig, Ralph may have to begin to watch his back as there may be a new leader. The boys were very excited when recapping the anecdote of their hunting and did not really display emotion in regards to the fact that there was a ship that had passed. Piggy cared as did Ralph, and I wonder if this could lead to a future relationship if all the members on the island were forced to pick between Ralph and Jack in the future.
I agree in thinking that this chapter perhaps showed the beginning of a power struggle between Ralph and Jack. There was a moment when the newly made fire separates Ralph and Piggy from all of the other boys, but more importantly Jack. This shows their conflict, which was in fact brought on by the fire. It seems like Jack is very selfish, and he and the other boys have come to a point where they are numb to criticism from Ralph and Piggy, and do not want to think about getting rescued, and the responsibilities they must have in order to stay safe on the island, and get back home.
“His mind was crowded with memories; memories of the knowledge…that they had outwitted a living thing, imposed their will upon it, and taken away its life a long satisfying drink.” (70)
This quote stood out to me because, Golding uses different symbols to describe how the boys are becoming crueler and savage. The “drink” symbolizes the boy’s first taste of death. And they seem to enjoy killing because, they show no remorse for killing a defenseless creature. And, how they use words such as”You should see the blood.”(Pg 70) As a trophy to show how “manly” they have become and not the little boys that they were when they first came to the island. Also, the drink could be a symbol as the power they have taken. And like any strong drink they will become addicted to this power and they seem craving for more, so they would do anything to get it.
I agree with you, the kids have most defiantly gotten more violent and crueler. Like when the kids were chanting "Kill the pig. Cut her throat. Spill her blood" it is showing the reader that the thought of dead and killing have over taken their mind and later when they finally killed a pig, it was a great accomplishment for them (69). It's as if killing a pig can show great power and manhood. Like they will receive more respect if they kill something.
"He became absorbed beyond mere happiness as he felt himself exercising control over living things." (p. 61) When Henry says this, I think he is demonstrating how all the 'littluns' feel. They are pushed down by the older kids and unable to make any decisions. By playing with the fish, or whatever creatures washed up, Henry is finally allowed to make choices not only for himself, but for other living creatures. When he begins to order them around, I think he is showing how he feels about Ralph and Jack ordering him around. Henry feels as if he himself is the fish, stuck in a ditch being poked at by all the older kids. He is tired of not having a say and being completely helpless on such a large island so far from home. He is in a unfamiliar place with unfamiliar people, and although they have bonded over their recent circumstances I do not think they consider themselves friends.
"They were used now to stomachaches and a sort of chronic diarrhea. They suffered untold terrors in the dark and huddled together to comfort...They cried for their mothers much less often than might have been expected; they were very brown, and filthily dirty"(59).
This quote stuck out to me because it’s showing how the living conditions on the island are getting pretty bad. The kids don’t know what they are doing and are just running around like maniacs. It is totally different than from the beginning of the story when the leaders promised them that everything will be alright and Ralph’s dad will come and save them. Thus showing that Ralph and the others are all talk and can’t really do anything right. It’s showing that kids can’t run a society. They need adults there to help them and guild them. And without the helpers and guilders, these kids do not know what they are doing. In fact, they are not making the situation any better by burning wood, killing nature, and being mean to each other.
I agree that kids are not able to run a society--and I think Golding used the specific group of kids in Lord of the Flies for a reason. He may be saying something about how young boys are at a fragile stage in their life where they are inclined to bend away from society unless constantly monitored and restricted, like the boys would be at home. They are inclined to do this because they are at an age where they are trying to define who they are, and feel that they cannot go along with the way everyone else wants them to be--they have to be their own leader. This would explain why there are unfolding power struggles between the young boys, left alone on an island, in Lord of the Flies.
"He became absorbed beyond mere happiness as he felt himself exercising control over living things." Page 80. Numerous times throughout this book, we have seen various characters gain pleasure from being in control and superior to others. Jack and the hunters find it immensely pleasing to kill a pig, while Henry likes to manipulate the small see creatures with a stick. Golding may be including these characters to show something about the nature of men--that is what they allow themselves to do when they are free from authority, or are in fact the authority themselves. Golding seems to be showing that the nature of man is perhaps inherently evil because they will always hold other people down, hurt them, and repress them, because it acts as an ego boost for themselves. Golding may also be pointing out that power is a great motive for most, as it pushes them to act tough and unreasonably curel to others (like Jack does to Piggy) to gain respect from their onlookers.
"Jack looked round for understanding but only found respect." (74)
This quote stood out to me because it is a repeated situation for Jack. more then once in the story Jack is not looking for respect but someone to empathize with, i think that is one of the main differences between Jack and Ralph. Jack is confident when it comes to manipulating people but he is cold and uses fear to govern people and because of that he realizes that no one rally likes him they just admire and bay him but Ralph is a people person and people naturally like him which should theoretically give him more power than Jack.
After Ralph smiles at Piggy after making fun of him "Piggy saw the smile and misinterpreted it as friendliness. There had grown up tacitly among the biguns the opinion that Piggy was an outsider, not only by accent, which did not matter, but by fat and ass-mar, and specs, and a certain disdain for manual labor (p65)". What strikes me is that even though at this point, the boys have been away from society for so long that they are becoming barbaric and animal-like they still adhere to common social standards. Often we see kids with glasses, or who are fat getting teased and left out because of this appearance. It does mention that Ralph and the others find Piggy annoying, but his personality is not the reason for his seclusion, as it might be in a society, which was not already driven by previously convcieved standards. I also think it is interesting that Piggy's mistaking the smile for friendliness is followed by the statement that he is left out and not liked by the other kids. This shows that he is disillusioned into thinking he has friends but that in fact all the 'kindness' he has received has been fake and not genuine.
I agree, i feel piggy more broadly is a symbol of the smartness of a society. When the boys play that they like him it represents how the people of the island (the boys) disrespect the rationality and observantness of the boys. He is the one who cares the most of all the boys.
Jack meant to leave him in doubt, as an assertion of power, Piggy by advertising his omission made more cruelty necessary. "You didn't hunt"....(74) This quote interested me because I knew it was coming. Of course Jack wound want to feel high and mighty after killing a pig. He's been trying for so long and he finally got it. But what wasn’t right was why he choose to be so mean with Piggy. He feels that he can push over him and bully him even though Piggy's one of the big kids. eventually everyone gets to eat some meat but it just find it so odd why Jack and Piggy have this internal war with each other. For what??
"There was a ship. Out there. You said you'd keep the fire going and you let it out!" (pg 70)
ReplyDeleteI found jack so ignorant in this chapter because he was so full of himself. Instead of watching the fire and making sure that it didn't go out, he left the fire unattended to go kill a pig. The boys had noticed that there was smoke coming from a ship and if they had seen the smoke from the island, they could have gone to rescue them. But the fire had gone out because of Jack. Jack had said early that before getting rescued he would like to kill the pig that he failed to kill. And this is what exactly happened, he killed the pig instead of possibly getting rescued. His actions affected the whole group and now I believe that Ralph and Piggy lost the little respect that they had for him. Ralph and Piggy from the start of the novel have put others before them: Ralph building the huts for the younger boys and Piggy coming up with smart ideas for rescue, but Jack just cares about himself.
I agree with you Jack is still hung up on killing a pig, he doesn't seem to car what happens to the rest of them. As long as he is OK and he gets to kill the pig then he simply does not care.I think that the problem is that Jack is trying to prove to himself and others that he could kill a pig, since the first time he failed to do so.
Delete"Ralph spoke.
ReplyDelete'You let the fire go out.'
jack checked, vaguely irritated by this irrelevance but too happy to let it worry him.
'We can light the fire again. You should have been with us, Ralph. We had a smashing time. The twins got knocked over-'
'we hit the pig-'" (69).
Jack goes on and keeps explaining how he killed the pig, what he did, and everything that was going on. Ralph is mad the fire went out because the ship that passed by could've seen the fire and rescued them. He keeps mentioning this to Jack and Jack brushes it off his shoulder as if it really is of non importance to him. He was irritated that what Ralph said had nothing to do with him killing the pig. The fact Jack keeps repeating what happened with the killing of the pig really shows me the idea of hunting and killing has taken control of him. It isn't about catching meat anymore it's more about him feeling more superior and better by killing pigs. It shows the mental state he's in now and how he is forgetting about the situation he's in. Him killing the pig is an accomplishment for himself that he's proud of and wants to show off, assuming from how much he talks about it in this chapter. He can really careless about the fire going out because later on he keeps saying "we can light it again" but he doesn't seem to realize they could've gotten rescued if he didn't let the fire go out. Ralph seems to be getting fed up with Jack always talking about hunting since they always bicker like a married couple. It makes me wonder if Jack continues to act like this, having this animal side to him, will the others grow more fear towards him or what will Ralph do?
This point of the book was also an eye opener when it came to my perspective of Jack. Even after Ralph told him that they could have been rescued, Jack isn't very shocked. His excuse was that they needed meat. Living on the island was no longer about getting rescued but about feeling the power that he couldn't feel at home. He is really taking advantage of the island in a way that shows that he doesn't want to go home, unlike everyone else.
Delete"'You should have seen the blood!'...
ReplyDelete'You and your blood, Jack Merridew! You and your hunting! We might have gone home!'" (70)
A large important part of this chapter was about almost getting rescued. Jack was in charge of watching, and keeping the fire up; but his obsessive ambition to kill a pig got in the way. When he finally does kill the pig, it was the wrong time to be worried about that. By going home they could have had PLENTY of pig, but Jack was too busy in trying to prove himself. He keeps trying to assure everyone by saying, 'yay I got a pig finally', and, 'we can light the fire again'. I think at this point Jack really sees his damage he caused, especially when Ralph starts to go at him. Something else that I realized is that Ralph really became the chief at the time that was too late. "I was chief, and you were going to do what I said. You talk. But you can't even build huts -- then you go off hunting and let out the fire--" I think here we see a different sight to Ralph: He doesn't seem as laid back, or unrealistic as he did a couple of pages ago. I hope he continues to stay on everyone about working hard to survive and get rescued though.
I agree, I think that Jack realized that he just ruined the groups chances of being rescued. I think that by killing the pig, Jack was trying to show that he was sort of rebelling against the old conservative lifestyle he had back home. I don't think Jack is able to handle the new lifestyle this group was challenged with. Also, I agree I think Jack is beginning to become angry with the situation they are in. Ralph is beginning to come off frustrated with the situation and I don't think he will be able to handle it for much longer.
Delete"'They might have seen us. We might have gone home—'... 'You and your blood, Jack Merridew! You and your hunting! We might have gone home—'" (64,65).
ReplyDeleteIn this chapter one of the main focuses is Jack's ignorance. All he cares about is killing a big. He completely forgets about his responsibility of keeping the fire going. If he had done this then they would have gotten rescued. I think the quote is significant because it is Piggy who is the one shouting at Jack. Piggy is always quiet and afraid of Jack but he finally cracks. The fact that this is Piggy's voice is even more significant because he is they shy and nervous boy out of the group. Jack's lack of care has proven to begin to effect the other kids and how they view him as a leader. Jack is completely brainwashed and all of his thoughts no longer have the interest of all the boys as a whole, but only of him killing the pig. I think Jack's change of attitude is really going to effect how the boys act and obviously how long it is going to take them to get rescued.
Jane, I agree with you! Jack's ignorance had a huge effect on the boys. If he kept the fire going they would have been rescued but he was too busy hunting and trying to prove himself. Also, I feel bad for Piggy, he finally voiced his opinion and in return he got beaten up by Jack. I hope later on in the book, Jack and all the other boys realize how helpful and intellectual Piggy is and I hope they feel bad for always victimizing Piggy.
DeleteAs I was reading chapter 4, I found it strange how the hunters where chanting, ““Kill the pig. Cut her throat. Spill her blood” (69). This just shows how bad things are getting the island and as we mentioned this class, I feel like they boys are losing their grip on reality. The choir boys are beginning to forget their civilized behavior, and they are becoming barbaric, especially Jack. Also, this quote clearly showed how much hunting meant to the boys and that they were willing to let the fire die out just to catch a pig. If the hunters didn’t let the fire die out they could have been rescued, but instead they were hunting. The boys were so consumed with hunting that they changed their priorities; all of a sudden hunting became much more important than being rescued. Also, “Spill her blood” (69) displays that the boys are beginning to become more violent. In the beginning of the book Jack did not slaughter the pig, “because of the unbearable blood” (31) but now he’s chanting with the rest of the hunters, “Spill the blood” this transition shows how savage they have become due to living in the island for so long.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with you and I too find it interesting how their transition from choir boys (which suggests they have religious values) to violent and irresponsible boys happened to suddenly. I think it's interesting that the twins listened to Jack and abandoned the fire despite Ralph's strict orders. They would rather kill a pig than continue to try to get rescued. What does that say about them, or even people as a whole? My real question is what caused this transition in the boys? What is it about the island of the lack of order? Also just to point out I think it's interesting the author calls the pig a "her". It could be nothing, but I wonder if there's any significance.
DeleteThe passage that caught my eye in this chapter was when Jack was doing his face paint: "He capered toward Bill, and the mask was a thing on its own, behind which Jack hid, liberated from shame and self-consciousness" (64). Throughout the book so far we have been given hints that in Jack's past life he was a sad, perhaps even depressed little boy. Now, this quote almost says it straight out. With the mask, he is "liberated from shame and self-consciousness". My question is, why? He was already head choir boy, proved to be an intimidating and orderly leader, and people listened to him. What is he trying to prove with this new cruel and gruesome persona of his? People always say that money doesn't bring happiness. My guess is neither does power, although Jack still, while creating this new form, seeks power. I'm honestly confused by his intentions. He obviously is a troubled boy, and previously in the book the author describes him as ugly, which may connect to the fact the "mask" that covers his face liberates his self-consciousness. But what about shame? To be as violent as Jack is, I guess you somewhat would have to abolish your shame. Maybe Jack knew he was somewhat cruel as himself, yet now he is someone/something different. I'm not exactly sure where I'm going with this, but what I'm trying to get across is that Jack is a confused character, not necessarily evil as others have suggested. I think he's just a boy with issues, who finally found his escape, just how many of us may have hobbies to relieve stress. However, his escape may not be the greatest route, as many people experience as well.
ReplyDeleteJack's face paint transforms him, certainly, but I think that he was transformed far before he slapped mud on himself: wearing the paint simply solidifies the action, and the change, and might not actually be all that internally revolutionizing for Jack at all.
DeleteI agree that he is not actually quite as evil as everyone else seems to believe, but I don't think the mask is there to cover up for his self-esteem issues. Instead, I think Jack's mask is his way of; for himself, the other boys and the reader; showing off this change and self-revival, sort of explaining physically what was already there in psychological form.
"In his other life Maurice had recieved chastisement for filling a younger eye with sand."
ReplyDeleteThis quote struck me because the boys no longer even recognize the people they once were. They are completely different now that they have been on the island, and as Maurice shows, can think back to their "other life" without regret or longing--it is simply a completely different existence. At the same time, however, the boys still cling (however subconsciously) to the lessons they learned in their past, explaining Maurice's uncomfortable feelings about kicking sand in the littlun's faces. That one last thread of civilization is what holds the boy's society together, but by calling it a completely "different life," it is easy to see that these threads are fast unravelling.
"They accepted the pleasures of the morning, the bright sun, the whelming sea and sweet air, as a time when play was good and life so full of hope was not necessary and therefore forgotten."
ReplyDeleteThis is the second sentence of the fourth chapter, i find it interesting the author is creating such a positive feel for the story. The children seem to be forgetting all their troubles and enjoying themselves very much. they are at this point in what seems to be paradise. They also seem not to want to leave, "hope was not necessary and therefore forgotten", who would want to abandon that island.
I agree. The boys are looking at the island as a land of paradise in this quote. However, I think they are also forgetting civilization. After being left alone on the island for a long time, they will lose their sense of order. Perhaps they will even become savage. When liberated, do we all become savages? It is interesting that Golding starts out Chapter 4 with the boys feeling happy to be stranded on the island, and then having them end up frustrated at losing their chance of escape from this “paradise”. This leads me to a question: is complete freedom a good thing? Or will it always end up with problems?
Deletei agree that the boys seem happy on the island in this portion of the book but i don't think that they really are. this quote is interesting because the author specifically writes "hope was not necessary and therefore forgotten" this is an example of how people take advantage of what they have and forget what life was like without it even if they only have it for a brief time.
Delete"'With the conch. I'm calling a meeting even if we have to go on into the dark. Down on the platform. When I blow it. Now.' He turned and walked off, down the mountain." (75)
ReplyDeleteThis quote was the last line of the chapter and it stood out to me because it talks about the reappearing symbol of the conch. Again in this chapter, the conch symbolizes power. This was right after Ralph became angry at Jack for not keeping the fire lit, Ralph can no longer handle the, what appears to be, ignorance of the hunters and he calls a meeting. The chapter ends with Ralph walking away angry, none of the boys protested against Ralph, which means that the conch has a great power that the boys will not argue against. The fact that Ralph has the conch gives him great power leading the boys. The conch symbolizes power also because Ralph states that the meeting will continue in the darkness. The conch seems to overrule everything against it like the dark and no one protests. Also, I find it interesting that Ralph starts the sentence with, "with the conch," this lead me to believe that no one is willing to argue against the conch because it is their only sense of order and power in society.
I think this is a really important part too. lately to conch shell has been calling everyone to meetings, but not so much anything else. I think a big part in the shell reappearing has to do with Ralph wanting to make sure they get reused, and survive. When Jack screws all of this up when HIS fire isn't being watched, Ralph realizes how much he needs to be more of a leader.
Delete"In his other life Maurice had received chastisement for filling a younger eye with sand. Now, though there was no parent to let fall a heavy hand, Maurice still felt the unease of wrongdoing"(65).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it refers to Maurice's "other life." This line has a sort of eerie feel because it connotes that the boys are living completely different lives and their situation truly sinks in. I also found it interesting that Golding describes as feeling "the unease of wrongdoing" even though there was no adult there to chastise him. I think that that says something about Golding's thoughts on human nature and on children. Maurice felt uneasy, but then proceeded to go off for a swim as if nothing had happened. Golding has the boys naturally set up a hierarchy based on age, and he goes on to make a lot of points about how their ages are affecting their behavior.
I agree that they live lives different to what priorly they were. When I read this passage I saw a sort of flashback, because Maurice is new to this freedom of doing bad with no repercussions. I feel like this happening to everyone on the island. I see this a lot in Jack, who is really excited about the idea of hunting, and being the man of the island, even though he isn't the leader, and I see how his past experience as a leader has affected this.
Delete“Roger’s arm was conditioned by a civilization that knew nothing of him and was in ruins,” (62). In the beginning, Roger misses a few aims at Henry when he is throwing stones. He is not used to hurting other people. This is because his old life, the civilized life, shaped him into a moral, orderly boy. But Roger, finally liberated from the clutches of society, unleashes his inner sadist on Henry. I think Roger’s sadistic characteristic compares to us because we are all sadistic at times. It is a part of human nature. However, is each and every one of us sadistic? And why is this a part of human nature? The quote conveys that without order, society would collapse in ruins. People like Roger would not be able to control their immoral humanistic qualities. Parents, school, policemen and the law are essential to keep civilization in order.
ReplyDeleteI agree completely. To me, this quote illustrates the whole central theme of this story, the clash between civiliation and savagery. It is probably true that society would never survive on its own withut rules and order but when you think about it, why is that? Are humans that savage and cruel that we need other humans to tell us what to do? And if our own nature is to be savage, than why should we have to repress that? I know it is tabboo to kill and eat others, but it is tabboo in OUR society. In some others, it may not be. All I am trying to say, is that what do we mean when we say savage? To me, there are still many savage aspects in our society even today, but who am I to say that when there is still such a thin dividing line between savage and civilized in the first place.
Delete"He [Jack] began to dance and his laughter became a bloodthirsty snarling." Chapter 4, pg. 64
ReplyDeleteThis quote shows the end of Jack's transformation into a killer. This doesn't go only for Jack, I think he is symbolic for the rest of the boys. They are all loosing their hold on real life. I think Golding uses the ship that passes by the island as a reality check for everyone. I say this because Jack forgets to tend the fire, in order to kill the pig. Distraction seems to be the main problem on the island. The littleuns also got distracted from the building of the structures.
Jack, i totally agree with you, and the question rises- Is Jacks transformation symbolic for the rest of the boys? I agree on how Jack is really not thinking straight and he let the island get to his head and change him. It is quite scary how if all the other members become like him and start killing each other.
DeleteI agree with you because Jack has turned into a violent character. I feel that he doesn't know how to control himself and he's taking out his frustraction in a violent way. When he decides to punch and beat up Piggy when he continuosly repeated that they could have been rescued from the ship passing by if he hadn't let the fire out, this shows that he agressively took out his anger on Piggy. I think that at the end of the novel, Jack is going to be a completely different person because everything that he has built inside of him, will eventually explode.
Delete"He was the only boy on the island whose hair never seemed to grow...his natural state and this imperfect covering would soon go, like the velvet on a young stag's antlers" (64).
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me a lot because it once again showed how Piggy just isn't like any of the other boys. However, this quote shows a lot of power within Piggy. We discussed in class that the growing of long shaggy hair symbolizes the jungles effect on the boys and how it has taken away their past civilized looks and has made them all the same and more animalistic. However, Piggy is the only ones hair that hasn't grown, meaning Piggy is the only one who has really stayed civilized and hasn't fallen into the life of killing and anarchy that the other boys have. The quote also points to a dark future for piggy. Soon his hair will grow like young deer, and he will begin to grow and let the jungle take over. So far Piggy has tried to help the group and has tried to help the group survive, however, will he start to become more radical as the book progresses?
I think that this makes a lot of sense. Not only is Piggy the only one continuously trying to be civilized, but he is also the only one who is paying attention to his past. He often refers back to what his auntie taught him. This makes Piggy seem less independent, like he can't survive without the rule of an adult. I think by the "young stag's antlers" it means that Piggy will not be able to cope without the rule of an adult and he will start to unravel and become very withdrawn. Or he will unravel and go a bit crazy.
DeleteThis quote also stood out to me because it shows that throughout being on the island, Piggy has stuck to himself and who he is. He has not changed in order to fit in with others because he has already found himself and is happy with who he is, although it would make his life easier if he gained the respect from others. I don't think he will change to become like the other boys because so far he hasn't and he has stood his ground on his own opinions and hasn't really let others push him around to some extent. I do think he will keep fighting to get the other boys to listen to him. I think he could become more radical depending on weather or not his relationships with the other boys begins to change. I do think that Piggy will do what is best for survival for himself no matter what, but I'm not sure if the other boys will follow.
Delete"They ate most of the day, picking up fruit where they could reach it and not particular about ripeness and quality. They were used now to stomachaches and a sort of chronic diarrhea. They suffered untold terrors in the dark and huddled together to comfort. Apart from food and sleep, they found time for play, aimless and trivial, in the white sand by the bright water. They cried for their mothers much less often than might have been expected; they were very brown, and filthily dirty,"(63).
ReplyDeleteI chose this quote because it shows how overwhelming this situation has been for everyone. Although, this particular quote focuses on the younger of the kids, it embodies the overall feeling that the average kid would feel. This abrupt independence that is put on everyone forces them to play the roles of adults, or even just be free, but is freedom to much for a kid to handle? While throwing rocks at Henry, Roger realizes that "there was a space round Henry, perhaps six yards in diameter, into which he dare not throw. Here, invisible yet strong, was the taboo of the old life. Round the squatting child was the protection of parents and school and police and the law,"(67). This quote also stood out to me because it illustrates the disguised need for protection and rule. These boys want to be told what to do and what to have somebody to depend on rather than themselves. Do you think that Ralph feels this way too? "Of all the boys, he was the most at home there; but today irked by the mention of rescue, the useless, footling mention of rescue, even the green depths of water and the shattered, golden sun held no balm."
"His mind was crowded with memories; memories of the knowledge that had come to them when they closed in on the struggling pig, knowledge that they had outwitted a living thing, imposed their will upon it, taken away its life like a long, satisfying drink. " (70)
ReplyDeleteTo me, this quote clearly demonstrates how the civilized, choir boy side of Jack is totally gone. As soon as he put on the mask and the fire extinguished, it not only extinguished their only hope of being rescused, but it also extinguished Jack's morality. He totally forgot about the fire, and forgot about being rescued in general, in favor of blood and killing. He feels strong, renewed and once he put on the face paint, he felt all of his troubles and past weaknesses fade away behind him. The only knowledge that he feels is useful now, is the knowledge to kill, and the "wonderful" memories that come with it. I also see a big comparison between both Jack and Henry. They both love the fact that they can dictate and terrorize other living things and get a joy out of watching them outsmart it and suffer. I think this just goes to show the natural instinct that we have as humans as a whole - the instinct to inflict pain on others, especially those that are weaker than us. Whether for survival means or not, we still enjoy doing it. Just think of the joy we had as little kids when we killed worms or squashed aunts. To me, it's the same thing.
think you bring up an interesting point Jaad,
Deletehowever I think that instead of Jack putting on the mask purely to feel stronger, I think he puts it on purely to forget all about the situation he is in. I think that the mask allows him re invent himself, a Jack 2.0 if you would. The last thing Jack wants to do is admit there is a problem, for Jack saying that there is a problem would be admitting defeat. The mask is away for Jack to hide from his problems. A couple lines down there is a quote that proves this nicely, "Jack, faced at once with too many awful implications, ducked away from them." (p.70) It is clear that the island is taking a toll on all the boys, and especially Jack.
P.S. I too enjoy the good old days when I squashed my aunts.
"Roger gathered a handful of stones and began to throw them...At last he saw one and laughed, looking for the friend who was teasing him. But Roger had whipped behind the palm again, was leaning against it breathing quickly, his eyelids fluttering."
ReplyDeleteI do not understand this passage. The boy Roger follows one of the "littluns", Henry, to the water's edge and throws rocks at him. Well, not actually at him, but around him, Roger won't throw the stones directly at Henry, he instead chooses to throw them near by in the water. I don't get a couple things about this bit, why is Roger throwing stones at a little kid? Why does he choose to just throw them around the little kid? And why does he hide when the little kid looks around to see who is throwing the stones? The most interesting part to me is why he chooses to only throw the stones near Henry, instead of actually at him. To me, it shows that Roger is hanging on to the little part of home he still has, the rules. Back home, he would never be able to throws rocks at little kids without being severely punished. Now, either he hasn't been on the island long enough to totally forget all the former rules, or he is trying to replicate his old life because he misses it so much. Either way, I think this is a sign of increasing desperation and also insanity for the boys.
"You talk. But you can't even build huts- then you go off hunting- and let the fire out" (71).
ReplyDeleteThis passage in particular was quite interesting and i think this chapter it really showed the negligence of jack. He clearly does not care about the other children on the island and i think he does not really care about going home, he just wants to hunt. The quote i have wrote on the top i think describes Jack's role on this stranded island. All he does is talk, as talking i mean argue with Ralph and other member, make fun of piggy. Then he attempts to build a huts and remembers it's not important to him and quits. And in this case, he does not do his job and he lets the firs go out. Jack is ignorant and i believe he will be the downfall of this group and it will affect there survival. What i would like to discuss in class is, if jack's group members are starting to become like Jack, and only thinking about meat. Also what i found interesting was how when they killed the pig they all starting chanting, and the way Jack describes all the blood and how he slit the pigs throat just makes me sick. Overall this reading was interesting.
I agree that Jack no longer cares about the others or getting home. I think the important question is why does he stop caring? I think the reason that he stops caring is because he is the most threatened by the others and is the most insecure. This may be the reason he hides behind the face paint, because he can be someone else and hide from the others. He feels that he needs to look out for himself to ensure that he is safe. These are his survival instincts. Although they are starting to get in the way of the group, as shown when he goes searching for the pig rather than keeping the fire alive and inevitably saving them.
Delete"Here, invisible yet strong, was the taboo of the old life. Round the squatting child was the protection of parents and school and policemen and the law. Roger's arm was conditioned by a civilization that knew nothing of him and was in ruins." (62) This quote stuck out to me because it demonstrates how these children have had trouble putting their past lives behind them. As a whole these kids obey the rules that were created for them by their parents because they don't know any other way. Golding shows how even though nobody is stopping them from doing whatever they please they have their lives dictated by a set of invisible unsaid rules, "invisible yet strong, was the taboo of the old life." Golding uses the word "taboo" to show that the rules set by the society they used to live in that were proscribed as unacceptable are still true and very evident. Without these unseen laws that dictate their lives they would struggle to maintain their harmony. This is shown through the actions of Jack Merridew. He does not obey the unsaid rules and because of this ignorance he destroys the group's ability to work together. While these rules are not enforced they are expected because without them, the island would turn into a place of chaos. Golding also uses the words "Roger's arm was conditioned by a civilization," to show that Roger had the rules of his old life engrained within him and because of this he did not have the ability to disobey them. Jack has found a way to make his own rules and even though he is the only one he is dramatically affecting the group. If one person does this much damage, how much damage can others influenced by Jack's actions do?
ReplyDelete
ReplyDelete“Jack planned his new face…he looked in the pool for his reflection, but his breathing troubled the mirror” (63).
I think that this quote shows that Jack is not only changing himself on the inside, but also trying to change his appearance to who he is now. He has trouble looking at the reflection and recognizing that it is himself who he is staring at. A few sentences later in the text however, it says “he looked in astonishment, no longer at himself but an awesome stranger” (63). He does in fact like who he is turning into, and I think he may respect himself more for that. This transformation did create some conflict between him and Ralph. Jack became more of a free spirit and stopped thinking so much about everything, which then caused him to forget about the fire. In the beginning Jack would have been egger to get off the island, but now he could care less. I think he enjoys being on the island because he didn’t like the strict rule the choir brought. He enjoys having no real schedule, but instead jobs to do however he wants them to be done. The island has given Jack more freedom to become someone else, but he may be straying from who he really is.
I agree with what you are saying about Jack. I think the mask he makes is just a figure of speech, he is actually going through many changes mentally and is attempting to make them physical in order to properly face them. I also noticed that when he looked into the water, his breath caused it to ripple. I think this symbolizes how easily his new image can be shattered. He is trying to portray himself in a certain way so that others will look up to him, but if he is not careful his entire image could fall apart.
Delete"Ralph watched them, envious and resentful. Not till they flagged and the chant died away did he speak. 'I'm calling an assembly.' One by one, they halted, and stood watching him."(75)
ReplyDeleteI think that Ralph is conflicted. He's torn between the ideas of being the alpha male, and being a good leader. He can only be one, because it was only practical to mend the fire, because getting fed meat was much less important than getting saved. I think Ralph feels like he's failed the whole island by allowing Jack to sneak off like this, because the kids do not know better than to be excited by a pig, because that is immediately exciting and they do not have long attention spans. He can't prove a really good argument towards them, because their brains aren't developed enough to see the problem. He wants to be the one to make sure that he worries about the island's issues for those unable to do it themselves. Is this going to pressure him to change? Is he going to lose his hold as a leader?
I see what you are saying and can follow your train of thought here and adding on it seems like since you said Ralph is struggling to differentiate himself as the leader and alpha male which is kind of similar, Jack seems to be doing the same. Since Jack was not dubbed cheif I think he tries to prove himself by being the one to supply everyone with food, and a pig at that. He also carries his knife with him at all times and hunts to make himself look more masculine, tough and a born leader. I think conflict may arouse later in the story between the two boys.
Delete"He (piggy) was the only boy on the island whose hair never seemed to grow"
ReplyDeleteThis quote shows the state of the boys compared to Piggy. In class we talked about how the other boys hair has grown to be long and how they have burnt skin. I believe that the author uses their hair to show status of their society. The fact that Piggy's hair has not grown shows that he is the only one that still has a grasp of the world. He in fact is the only one that still hopes that they will be rescued. Piggy is the only one that has not modified his lifestyle to the islands standards. He is the only civilized character left in the story because the other children, have been burnt by the sun showing that they have been branded with the islands rod. Piggy also is the only one trying to operate on the other worlds standard while the others are indulging in a simplified lifestyle. Piggy tries to make a sun dial so that they can operate on the worlds time but Ralph says no. This shows that Ralph has seen that the world has given up on them and thinks that he has no need to conform to their standards when he feels that his standards are more adequate and logical for the time being.
This is a really interesting analysis of the quote. And I think you are spot on with it. Piggy serves as a comparison and him standing still almost makes him a clock. Him being the same makes the other kids changes more significant.
DeleteI agree with you John. It even actually shows how Piggy is different from everyone else on this island. He is the one who understands what it takes to survive on this island. Throughout this whole book, no one sees any potential in Piggy and underestimates him. I think if Piggy somehow gains the same power as the conch he will be able to have an affect on everyone on this island including Ralph.
Delete"Yet there was a space round Henry, perhaps six yards in diameter, into which he dare not throw. Here, invisible yet strong, was the taboo of the old life. Round the squatting child was the protection of parents and school and policemen and the law. Roger's arm was conditioned by a civilization that knew nothing of him and was in ruins." (62)
ReplyDeleteI chose this quote because it gives a window into the psychology of a natural mind. These kids are thrown into a totally unheard of, inexperienced environment. Even in this natural state, with rescue and civilization in the furthest corner of the sub-conscious mind, morality trumps instinct. No matter how much they may cherish or dread the fleeting thoughts of a past civilization they used to belong to, it will always be evident. Henry watches as a young companion frolics by the ocean, aiming small stones to be thrown near his friend, but not at his friend, never at his friend. For this small act, which may not even cross the mind of some in a different situation, is the difference between civilization and the jungle. It is the last bit of the life they used to belong to. If he were to throw the stone at his friend he would be abandoning his last bit of insanity, and morality that society has spent instilling in him from birth. It is interesting to watch how the excess fat melts off the children, leaving raw skeletons of the purely instinctual necessity of emotions. How will the kids grow and evolve the longer they spend in this habitat?
"They obeyed the summons of the conch, partly because Ralph blew it, and he was big enough to be a link with the adult world of authority"(63)
ReplyDeleteThis quote reminded me of the fact that they rely on the conch to give them orders. It makes me also think that this whole society relies on what a conch has to called them to do. Although this might keep the society in order, I feel that this also question others to why they have to obey this conch. I also found it interesting how they mentioned the power between Ralph and the conch again which is significant to the book. The littluns rely on Ralph to have this connection with the adults and thats why they trust him as their leader. They always have the sense to rely on someone because they still did not come of age and don't know how the world "works". I wonder if the littluns will come of age in a sense of rebelling towards Ralph? Will he always be the one the littluns look up to for answers?
I agree that the conch is the only tangible object in the island that gives the boys orders. To answer your question on why the boy’s have to obey the conch because, it’s the closest gateway to civilization. And, with this conch they feel a sense of some order and values even though adults are not around. Especially with the littluns, because due to their age that they have no sense of direction or anyone to look up to for orders on what to do.
Delete"Jack stood up as he said this, the bloodied knife in his hand. The two boys faced each other. There was the brilliant world of hunting, tactics, fierce exhilaration, skill; and there was the world of longing and baffled commonsense. Jack transferred the knife to his left hand and smudged blood over his forehead as he pushed down the plastered hair"(71). This quote stood out to me because the boys had a chance to finally escape off of this island, yet the dilema of Jack's obsession interfered with it. Jack has seemed to influence the other boys to care about hunting as much as him; acknowledging this I believe that if Jack can do this(win the views of other boys) as well as killing a pig, Ralph may have to begin to watch his back as there may be a new leader. The boys were very excited when recapping the anecdote of their hunting and did not really display emotion in regards to the fact that there was a ship that had passed. Piggy cared as did Ralph, and I wonder if this could lead to a future relationship if all the members on the island were forced to pick between Ralph and Jack in the future.
ReplyDeleteI agree in thinking that this chapter perhaps showed the beginning of a power struggle between Ralph and Jack. There was a moment when the newly made fire separates Ralph and Piggy from all of the other boys, but more importantly Jack. This shows their conflict, which was in fact brought on by the fire. It seems like Jack is very selfish, and he and the other boys have come to a point where they are numb to criticism from Ralph and Piggy, and do not want to think about getting rescued, and the responsibilities they must have in order to stay safe on the island, and get back home.
Delete“His mind was crowded with memories; memories of the knowledge…that they had outwitted a living thing, imposed their will upon it, and taken away its life a long satisfying drink.” (70)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because, Golding uses different symbols to describe how the boys are becoming crueler and savage. The “drink” symbolizes the boy’s first taste of death. And they seem to enjoy killing because, they show no remorse for killing a defenseless creature. And, how they use words such as”You should see the blood.”(Pg 70) As a trophy to show how “manly” they have become and not the little boys that they were when they first came to the island. Also, the drink could be a symbol as the power they have taken. And like any strong drink they will become addicted to this power and they seem craving for more, so they would do anything to get it.
I agree with you, the kids have most defiantly gotten more violent and crueler. Like when the kids were chanting "Kill the pig. Cut her throat. Spill her blood" it is showing the reader that the thought of dead and killing have over taken their mind and later when they finally killed a pig, it was a great accomplishment for them (69). It's as if killing a pig can show great power and manhood. Like they will receive more respect if they kill something.
Delete"He became absorbed beyond mere happiness as he felt himself exercising control over living things." (p. 61)
ReplyDeleteWhen Henry says this, I think he is demonstrating how all the 'littluns' feel. They are pushed down by the older kids and unable to make any decisions. By playing with the fish, or whatever creatures washed up, Henry is finally allowed to make choices not only for himself, but for other living creatures. When he begins to order them around, I think he is showing how he feels about Ralph and Jack ordering him around. Henry feels as if he himself is the fish, stuck in a ditch being poked at by all the older kids. He is tired of not having a say and being completely helpless on such a large island so far from home. He is in a unfamiliar place with unfamiliar people, and although they have bonded over their recent circumstances I do not think they consider themselves friends.
"They were used now to stomachaches and a sort of chronic diarrhea. They suffered untold terrors in the dark and huddled together to comfort...They cried for their mothers much less often than might have been expected; they were very brown, and filthily dirty"(59).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stuck out to me because it’s showing how the living conditions on the island are getting pretty bad. The kids don’t know what they are doing and are just running around like maniacs. It is totally different than from the beginning of the story when the leaders promised them that everything will be alright and Ralph’s dad will come and save them. Thus showing that Ralph and the others are all talk and can’t really do anything right. It’s showing that kids can’t run a society. They need adults there to help them and guild them. And without the helpers and guilders, these kids do not know what they are doing. In fact, they are not making the situation any better by burning wood, killing nature, and being mean to each other.
I agree that kids are not able to run a society--and I think Golding used the specific group of kids in Lord of the Flies for a reason. He may be saying something about how young boys are at a fragile stage in their life where they are inclined to bend away from society unless constantly monitored and restricted, like the boys would be at home. They are inclined to do this because they are at an age where they are trying to define who they are, and feel that they cannot go along with the way everyone else wants them to be--they have to be their own leader. This would explain why there are unfolding power struggles between the young boys, left alone on an island, in Lord of the Flies.
Delete"He became absorbed beyond mere happiness as he felt himself exercising control over living things." Page 80.
ReplyDeleteNumerous times throughout this book, we have seen various characters gain pleasure from being in control and superior to others. Jack and the hunters find it immensely pleasing to kill a pig, while Henry likes to manipulate the small see creatures with a stick. Golding may be including these characters to show something about the nature of men--that is what they allow themselves to do when they are free from authority, or are in fact the authority themselves. Golding seems to be showing that the nature of man is perhaps inherently evil because they will always hold other people down, hurt them, and repress them, because it acts as an ego boost for themselves. Golding may also be pointing out that power is a great motive for most, as it pushes them to act tough and unreasonably curel to others (like Jack does to Piggy) to gain respect from their onlookers.
"Jack looked round for understanding but only found respect." (74)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it is a repeated situation for Jack. more then once in the story Jack is not looking for respect but someone to empathize with, i think that is one of the main differences between Jack and Ralph. Jack is confident when it comes to manipulating people but he is cold and uses fear to govern people and because of that he realizes that no one rally likes him they just admire and bay him but Ralph is a people person and people naturally like him which should theoretically give him more power than Jack.
After Ralph smiles at Piggy after making fun of him "Piggy saw the smile and misinterpreted it as friendliness. There had grown up tacitly among the biguns the opinion that Piggy was an outsider, not only by accent, which did not matter, but by fat and ass-mar, and specs, and a certain disdain for manual labor (p65)". What strikes me is that even though at this point, the boys have been away from society for so long that they are becoming barbaric and animal-like they still adhere to common social standards. Often we see kids with glasses, or who are fat getting teased and left out because of this appearance. It does mention that Ralph and the others find Piggy annoying, but his personality is not the reason for his seclusion, as it might be in a society, which was not already driven by previously convcieved standards. I also think it is interesting that Piggy's mistaking the smile for friendliness is followed by the statement that he is left out and not liked by the other kids. This shows that he is disillusioned into thinking he has friends but that in fact all the 'kindness' he has received has been fake and not genuine.
ReplyDeleteI agree, i feel piggy more broadly is a symbol of the smartness of a society. When the boys play that they like him it represents how the people of the island (the boys) disrespect the rationality and observantness of the boys. He is the one who cares the most of all the boys.
DeleteJack meant to leave him in doubt, as an assertion of power, Piggy by advertising his omission made more cruelty necessary. "You didn't hunt"....(74)
ReplyDeleteThis quote interested me because I knew it was coming. Of course Jack wound want to feel high and mighty after killing a pig. He's been trying for so long and he finally got it. But what wasn’t right was why he choose to be so mean with Piggy. He feels that he can push over him and bully him even though Piggy's one of the big kids. eventually everyone gets to eat some meat but it just find it so odd why Jack and Piggy have this internal war with each other. For what??