Post your reader responses here: Choose a line or two from Chapter 1 and explain why it stands out to you. Does this line shock you, confuse you, or seem important in some way? Does it make you ask a question? Can
you make a connection to your life or another text? Does the language
stand out to you for some reason? What is this line saying about the
characters in the novel and about people or the world, in general?
Then,
respond to a classmate's post. Agree or disagree, but make sure that
you add something new-- a new idea, a reference to another part of the
book. Include textual evidence as you push the conversation forward. Ask more questions to keep the dialogue going...and remember-- this assignment is all about thinking/analysis.
The passage that stuck with me was when Jack was hunting and the author describes his eyes:"They were bright blue, eyes that in this frustration seemed bolting and nearly mad" (48).I always thought of blue, especially bright blue, as a peaceful color. Something that isn't angry, or violent. I looked up the symbolism for blue, and that's exactly what I found;blue symbolizes youth, peace, and calm. But I also found that it is used in uniforms because it symbolizes authority. The part about blue being peaceful kind of contradicts the description the author gives him. What could this mean? What does this say about Jack as a character? He obviously seems authorative, yet he also is playing out to be a violent, dark character. Is he truely that character at heart? Is something making him act the opposite of his true character? It says he was "nearly mad" and I interpreted that as the kind of mad that means insanity. A lot of people in this world can appear to be good on the exterior, but then prove to be the complete opposite when in a position of power. I think this might be a foreshadowing to Jack's reign of power. My question is what drove him to this insanity, or is it natural?
ReplyDeleteI totally agree. I too always looked at blue as a peaceful color but now that I look ar Jack, I think otherwise. For some reason, I always sensed a certain somberness or even sourness from Jack, hence his eyes being blue which can also represent sadness. Since the very beginning of the novel, he was always trying to prove something to the group. Even with the hunting, he may be turining into a savage but for what purpose? I don't just think it is because the island is making him that way, although that is certaintly part of it, he wants to show his courage, his power, and prove that he can in fact kill the pig. Like I said in my own post, Jack doesn't necessarily have any special qualities to show off to the group. In a weird way, he seems to be the weakest link in the group, even more so than Piggy, which is why he may have been jealous of him from the start.
Delete"They looked at each other, baffled, in love and hate."
ReplyDeleteThis quote describes Jack and Ralph, commenting on their relationship after they get into an argument about hunting and building shelters. What struck me is that "in love and hate" so well describes their relationship. By this point, I think it is safe to say that Jack and Ralph are foils: total opposites; yet despite that, if they combined their skills and interests they could create a strong, thriving civilization.
However, they don't combine those skills and instead are constantly at odds. Their inability to understand how much easier life would be if they worked together connotes their immaturity; they fight because they are different. Will they end up maturing, therefore, or will they continue their angry back and forth banter? If they never learn to work together, how will that be reflected in the younger, more impressionable boys who look up to these two?
I agree. They are foils. Universally, their differences can be seen in our world. Ralph symbolizes what is right: helping people for the benefit of everyone, and not just himself. On the other hand, Jack symbolizes the selfish nature in humans. I believe we all have both of these qualities. These differences reveal an inner fight in ourselves, and that we have a mix of good and bad. Can we be completely one sided, or is there always a clash between these two aspects? I think Ralph and Jack will not be able to end up maturing; there will eventually be complete and utter discord.
Delete“If you’re hunting sometimes... you can feel as if you’re not hunting, but—being hunted, as if something’s behind you all the time in the jungle.” (53)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really gives you a window into the minds’ of these kids. As time progresses and little progress has been made on shelter or hunting, I think fear and anxiety are beginning to set it. I could not tell how much time has passed, since the previous chapter, but the little boy that went missing was not brought up once, which leads me to believe they have given up on searching for him. This can only add to the paranoia swirling around the boys. To know that one member of the group can go missing and not be found would not make me too ambitious. With boredom and fear setting in, I can see the group beginning to disband. I am excited to see if they will ever find the little boy with the mark on his face. How will the wilderness take both a physical and mental toll on the group of boys? Will they ever be rescued?
Another interesting thing about the quote is that Jack, the notorious 'bad boy' leader-type of the group, is the one who admits to this feeling. The fact that the aura of the island is so intense that it can make even Jack feel disconcerted and generally out of sorts shows the powerful feelings swirling around these boys. The wilderness is sucking them in, and I agree that it has affected them both physically and mentally, and I think Jack is a good example of that. His willingness to admit these fears without as much inhibition, or even to talk about them at all (especially to Ralph, his self-declared rival) shows how he has regressed (or maybe progressed?) past those social norms and is more primitive than he once was.
Delete"'I bet if I blew the conch this minute, they'd come running. Then we'd be, you know, very solemn, and someone would say we ought to build a jet, or a submarine, or a TV set. When the meeting was over they'd work for five minutes then wander off or go hunting.'"(Ralph 53)
ReplyDeleteI chose this quote because it shows the diminishing power of the conch. In class we were talking about what the Fire and what the conch represented. I identified the conch with the idea of governed power and order, and the fire with uncontrollable power and freedom. To support this it seems like the more familiar the boys become with the freedom of the island, the more they shun the idea of being under an order. Ralph mentions the idea of the conch signalling meetings, but how the kids are not as willing to get involved in the work. This also goes back to the fact that Jack only wants to hunt pigs on the island for "meat", which is not as much as a necessity than building shelters. So, Will the power of the conch get revived, or will the overwhelming freedom of the fire continue to burn?
I agree, while the power of the conch and its power to govern and gather is diminishing, the power of fire and freedom is quickly rising. I also think the boys increasing want for freedom might be influenced by their pessimistic thoughts that they might not every get off the island, so why try to live. Also I like how you connected to Jack's want for meat, which is less important than shelter. Do you think he wants meat to feed people or do you think he wants meats for the ability to kill and feel more power as he takes away the life of an animal.
Delete" You wouldn't care to help with the shelters, I suppose?.
ReplyDelete"We Want Meat!" (51)
This quote was the first verbal fight the boys have gotten into therefore having a great impact in the story. I think this is very important because like other symbols in previous chapters, it fore-shadows the future for this civilization. This fight goes father than them arguing about hunting and shelter, and it show the differences in their personalities and beliefs. I think that Ralph and Jack's fight shows the future of the civilization. I feel that in the up coming chapters we will see the separation of the boys. This will cause further chaos within their community creating bisectors which mirror the two boy's belief. This will go against the harmony that other characters try to preserve like Piggy and Simon. I feel that these two characters will be in the middle of the chaos and be forced to operate on separate terms than the two main groups. This will happen because the two do not care about leadership or power, but believe in the well being of the little kids and the survival of everyone on the island.
I think you're totally right. This is a turning point in the story and I believe chaos is coming, and just from obvious predictions we can guess who will go into power when this chaos occurs, Jack. But why? What is it about Jack that makes him the leader of chaos and freedom? What are the different boys' beliefs that the other children will have to side with? Can there even be a leader in chaos? I kind of agree with you about Piggy and Simon too, but since they are these sensitive and "smart" characters, it could make them out to be targets for ridicule and action. It may not be the best thing to be in the middle. Although I don't know if I totally agree that Piggy and Simon will not be part of Ralph nor Jack's group, because they do lean towards Ralph a bit more.
Delete“Jack nodded, as much for the sake of agreeing as anything…. They walked along, two continents of experience and feeling, unable to communicate.” (55)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really shows the power struggle that Jack and Ralph are competing for. Jack agrees, just to agree, not because he did agree but because they haven’t agreed on anything else and they must come to some equal terms. Golding also refers to Jack and Ralph as “continents” to symbolize the extraordinary amount of power each of them holds. It’s like the Soviet Union and the U.S in the Cold War. Neither of these two world powers could agree on anything. However, this war stayed cold. Based on the amount of arguing and disagreeing that has gone on so far, I predict that this feud between them will heat up eventually. Ralph can’t maintain his position as leader if Jack and his “group” decide to rebel, or make their own group with their own separate ideas other than Ralph’s group.
I agree with you Ralph and Jack are having trouble coming o terms about who is the actual leader. Jack seems to have a hard time understanding that Ralph is in charge not him.
DeleteGreat point Jake. This whole Ralph vs. Jack situation is always appearing, and they are mostly disagreeing on each others opinions. When Golding used two continents to symbolize their relationship it made me think that two continents have their own set of characteristics. This also made me distinguish that the younger children are the countries within either "Ralph's continent" or "Jack's continent". And it questions me who is really siding with who, and it rises to the point to make me wonder who will become stronger in a sense of a "continent"?
Delete“But you can feel as if you’re not hunting, but–being hunted, as if something’s behind you all the time in the jungle,” (53). The fact that Jack says this is interesting. Despite his fierce attitude when he is hunting, he sounds scared of something during the process. I think what he is scared of, is himself. Jack seems to have two sides to him: one side is hunting the pigs, so that he can provide a meal for everyone. The other side of him is hunting for the sake of hunting. Jack mostly likes the feeling of killing. This cruel part of him is something he is scared of because he himself cannot control it. This characteristic is pressuring him to kill the pig, and it is causing an uneasiness to stir within his conscience. Golding is trying to convey how savagery is a part of human nature, whether we know it or not. Perhaps Jack truly does not want to end the life of something living, but he has no choice. His inner evil nature is urging him to kill. We can all relate to him because we are selfish at times. This brings me to a statement from class: savagery, cruelty, and evil are part of human nature. I think this is the core of “Lord of the Flies”. Who are we at heart, and are we naturally bad?
ReplyDeleteI agree, though Jack is always bringing up this idea of being ale to catch and kill a pig, inside he feels as though (for lack of better words) he can't bring himself to do it. If he really was capable of killing the pig the way he says he is he would have been able to kill the pig the first chance he had. I also feel that Golding is trying to express, through Jacks sudden eagerness to kill this pig, that living on the island, and even the island itself is changing Jack and they way he does things as well as the way he thinks. Jaad wrote his entire blog post about this and I feel as though it is something we as readers should always reflect on as we continue through the book - how the island is changing the boys' views on things as well as how the island may have affected their behavior.
Delete"He tried to convey the compulsion to track down and kill that was swallowing him up" p 51
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out to me because it shows how easliy Jack has transformed throughout the novel, from someone who was scared of the sight of blood and tearing into flesh, to someone that wants to do just that. It seems like the island is taking him over, turning him into a savage-like creature. I think this will eventually happen to everyone on the island but is happening to him first. In a way, I feel like he is the weakest person on the island. Sure he helps out Ralph with things but I mean, when you truly look at it, he has no special talents. Ralph is the leader, Simon seems smart, we all know Piggy is intelligent and the rest of the group is mostly the littluns. Jack seems like he is just a not nice person and has a big ego, which is why he wants to prove to everyone that he can hunt. Underneath, he knows his faults, another reason why he why also constantly attacks Piggy.
I think you are very right that eventually all these children will be consumed by the island and act in this savage way. Although I am not sure if he is weakest on the island. I agree that this thirst for killing has affected him deeply but I do not think it shows weakness. I think that it shows that he is afraid just like everyone else, he just deals with this fear in his own way. They are attempting to deal with their need for security and he is fighting back against the island, unlike the others. Although, the most important part of this consumption to me is, when will it affect the others? How will they deal with it? I believe it will destroy the inner workings of the group and separate them, eventually making it every man for them self.
Delete"He tried to convey the compulsion to track down and kill that was swallowing him up. 'I went on. I thought by myself-' The madness came into his eyes again." (51) This passage stuck out to me because I was surprised by the anger that is shown within these words. This shows how these children are reacting to their new life on this island that is truly detached from the rest of the world. While the children have worked as a group for the time they have been together, this is the first sign of their survival instincts kicking in. Golding uses words like "compulsion" and "madness" to show how real these feelings are. In my mind this is brought on by fear and the need for a sense of security that they may have had before they got to the island, but lost too quickly to truly understand. These feelings are the very thing that will destroy this "society". Ralph has attempted to create a set of rules that would bottle up these emotions of fear and a need for security when the only way to stop them is to allow them to breath. After all these are only children that are on an island they know nothing about, it is natural for them to be afraid and it can even be good. Although because of their age they will inevitably not look towards the betterment of the others and only search for their own well being. While nothing has affected the group yet, when these feelings escalate they will overcome these innocent children and control their decisions.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree. Your assessment of the boys when they revert to a life driven by madness and urges rather than the rules of society reminds me of Hobbes's idea of man in the state of nature. He sees man in the state of nature, as living only based on his want to survive. Men recognize survival of the fittest and therefore do anything in order to benefit themselves over others. We see this slowly starting to develop in the book but it has not yet reached a breaking point at which violence may occur between the boys and they see true competition.
Delete“Rescue? Yes, of course! All the same, I’d like to catch a pig first-‘He snatched up his spear and dashed it into the ground. The opaque, mad look came into his eyes again” (53)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out me because it shows how obsessive Jack has become over catching/killing a pig. He’s constantly trying to kill a pig just to show how strong of a leader he is and how tough he is. Jack isn't even concerned about being rescued, he rather hunt and show how manly he is. He’s becoming cruel and as time is passing on he’s forgetting his civilized English boy behaviour. Jack’s eyes reveal how desperately he wants to kill a pig and prove that he is worthy of being a leader. Additionally, I feel like he wants to redeem himself because he couldn't slaughter the pig when he had the chance and he couldn't bring meat for the other boys. Moreover, if he brings meat to the hungry choir boys he will win over them and he will be more powerful, which is ultimately his goal, I believe.
I agree with you because it's as if Jack wants to prove to the group that he is good enough and that they were wrong to choose Ralph as leader. But with his violent and evil intention of slaughtering a pig, Jack is just proving and showing why he isn't the leader of the group. He's caught up in proving that he's strong and tough but he doesn't realize that he's coming across as useless and not worthy of taking on the role of a leader. I think that he would win the group over by simply acting like a leader even though he wasn't the selected leader. But I believe that his ultimate goal isn't to win them over and gain power, but to prove to himself that he's good for something.
DeleteI completely agree with you both. Its a little strange and shocking how obsessive Jack has become with the killing of this pig. Even though they speak about being rescued, and going back home, Jack still manages to bring his focus back to the island as if the island has taken total control of him. Not only does he want to prove himself as "tough" as well as a leader, but hes become so obsessed over life on this island that hes forgotten his life at home. Its almost as if he doesn't want to be rescued- killing and hunting is more important.
Delete"If you're hunting sometimes you catch yourself feeling as if... you're not hunting , but being hunted."
ReplyDeleteLike we discussed in class, fear seems to be a good motivator for the kids at this point. They are not realizing the potential dangers of being alone. After making fun of the small children for being afraid of snakes, the older kids are also having trouble adjusting and are showing signs of fear. They are starting to slowly come to terms with the reality of the situation in which they are currently in.
I do agree with your analysis on how fear is a prominent theme throughout the book. To add to your analysis the boys have the fear of the unknown and what their unable to see. For example, the parts of the island they have not explored or the fear of harming one or another. Like, the class discussion we had today oh how Piggy was so worried about the little boy who disappeared after the wildfire.
DeleteI agree with you, I don't think all of the boys actually realized the reality of the situation and I think they might be in denial. I actually think that the little boys realized that they were in danger before the older boys. I still think that the older boys think that they can solve everything and eventually it will be okay. The older boys seem to have very high hopes and they seem to think a lot of themselves. The little boys, on the other hand, are scared and nervous about everything on the island, which shows me that they sense danger brewing. Do you think the older kids will ever fully adjust; do you think the little boys will succeed better on the island?
Delete"They're hopeless. The older ones aren't much better. D'you see? All day I've been working with Simon. No one else. They're off bathing, or eating, or playing" (pg 50).
ReplyDeleteThis quote proves why Ralph is the leader of the group. He is determined, confident, and most importantly, responsible. What frustrated him was that while everyone was either playing around or having fun in the water, he and Simon were doing all the work with building the huts. Jack and his group's job is to hunt and provide the meat for food, but they continue to fail in capturing a pig and killing it. Ralph, on the other hand, is determined to complete and finish what he had said he would do, which is to provide shelter for the boys. No one is willing to work on the huts besides Ralph and Simon. Ralph is doing his best at being the leader but it seems as if the rest of the group are relying on him to do everything while they just relax and enjoy their time on this island. If this continues to happen, will Ralph's vision of leadership begin to change?
I agree with you! I feel like Ralph is the ideal leader: he is responsible, and he keeps everything in order. Ralph is the only one who is actually trying and is committed to helping the boys get food and shelter. I do feel like if the others boy continue slacking and not contributing, Ralph is going to get to the point where he can't take it any more and he's going to stop taking responsibility for others. I wonder what Jack would do if that happens later on in the book. Also, I'm curious to know what Piggy's reaction would be.
DeleteI agree with you that we can now finally start to see how Ralph is the leader. He is starting to act like one by actually beginning to take the situation they're in serious. He realized how he was behaving like a kid in the wrong situation and sees that through Jack and the rest of the boys since they are playing around while Ralph and Simon are building huts for them to stay in. The fact he thought about making the huts just in case it would rain on the island shows he is usig the intelligence he needs as a leader.
DeleteI agree that ralph is good leader but I don't think this is because of his intelligence. I think Ralph makes a good leader because he is confident enough to reassure the group but his confidence does not make naive in most practical things. Ralph is also only a good leader because he has Piggy. Piggy is the one that came up with the idea of the shelter. I think the reason that Jack is not as successful as Ralph in the group is because he acts over confident but real has a self-confidence issue, this is shown when he is determined to get the pig and prove himself. He is also too rash and jumps on any idea that comes to his head without thinking ahead. These aspects show his similarities to the fire that we tacked about in class. In class we compared the conch and the fire and which one had more power. I think that jack is like the fire because he has small moments in the group were he comes up with what sound like good ideas and they flare up and get out of hand and then die out and leave a scar on the group.
Delete"They looked at each other, baffled, in love and hate. All the warm salt water of the bathing pool and the shouting and splashing and laughing were only just sufficient to bring them together again"(59).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because Golding used the two words "love and hate" between both Ralph and Jack. It was interesting to how he used these two corresponding words, more over when he mentioned "love" the color pink came to me again. This whole sentence to me seems that Ralph's and Jack's relationship is full of confusion. They are competing for this role of leader still but yet when they work together they function like a team. When Golding uses the words "sufficient to bring them together again" it reminds me of the powers we discussed in class of the Fire vs. Conch and how the Conch brought them to harmony. The lil kids are enjoying their time by doing childish things: splashing in this pool of water and laughing. By this I ultimately feel that this playfulness is bringing them together to have hope in this island, just by enjoying their time. This brings in the innocence of these lil kids and how they still aren't coming of age. It makes me wonder if the fire, conch and this innocence is some what powerful towards this island.
Good thoughts, but sometimes I have to remind my self that there just kinds you know. So they will hoe there true emotions either happy or sad. There just as much confused as we may be by there situation. So what ever enjoying comes along they won't reject it. Sometime just looking at the story with out some dept you see that these kid aren't sure of what happening to them these are emotions uncontrollable by there current state of nature.
Delete" Indignation took away Ralph's control.
ReplyDelete'I was talking about smoke! Don't you want to be rescued? All you can talk about is pig, pig, pig!'
'But we want meat!'
'And I work all day with nothing but Simon and you come back and don't even notice the huts!' (54).
These lines grabbed my attention because I see a change in Ralph after the last chapter where Piggy was trying to make them realize what needs to be done. I can see Ralph took a step in the right direction by him building the huts with Simon. I also find it interesting how Ralph bursted out on Jack about him only wanting to find pig and not caring about being rescued when Ralph, before this chapter, didn't really take getting rescued so serious as he does which shows him being a dynamic character from chapter 1 to chapter 3. One last thing is when Jack says they want meat, Idon't fully think he only wants meat I think because he is a kid still the thought of killing an animal gives him that rush that makes him want to find meat so badly and think of all these possibilities to catch pigs.
Ralph and Jack are becoming to clash against eachother and it makes me think how their relationship will effect the rest of the boys on the island and the actions taken.
I totally agree. Jack is so intent on killing a pig; not really to eat, but to redeem himself for not killing one the first time. On page 51 he goes back to Talph and Simon
DeleteAnd talks about how he once again failed to kill the pig, but, like he said before, next time there would be a dead pig for them to eat. There was even a part where Ralph was talking about being rescued and Jack had to rekindle what "rescue" was.
DeleteI'm also really happy that this is your real post opposed to the other one..
Delete"Meetings. Don't we love meetings? Every day. Twice a day. W e talk." He got on one elbow. "I bet if I blew the conch this minute, they'd come running. Then we'd be be, you know, very solemn, and someone would say we ought to build a jet, or a submarine or a TV set. When the meeting was over they'd work for five minutes, then wander off or go hunting" (53).
ReplyDeleteI chose this quote because it shows that Ralph is having doubts about his own leadership. He is the leader and the one who forms the meetings, yet he seems to think they are a waste of time. I think his observations about the meetings are really observations about his own capability as a leader. He says that everyone would come and they'd be solemn, and then they would run off and forget about their work. What he's really saying is that the meeting give the group a false sense of hope and make them feel as if they are improving their situation, but it only lasts for a couple minutes. I think that this is similar to Ralph as a leader because of the way that he lied to the group in the last chapter, giving them a false sense of hope, but also keeping him well like. The meetings also give the boys a false sense of hope and are well liked because they make them feel as if there is order and hope.
I've recently been thinking the same thing about the group's meeting and Ralph's abilities as a leader-that they are more of a charade than anything else. However, I think it also must have a lot to do with the immaturity of the little kids--no one can really expect them to buckle down and work hard towards building shelters and such, when they (the younger ones at least) can barely yet grasp the importance of such things in the first place. I do wonder when or if the older boys of the group, who have been slacking off, will realize the severity of their situation, and begin to actually put in work to stay alive.
Delete"Rescue? yes of course! All the same, I'd like to catch a pig first..."(53).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stuck out to me because I felt that it was little weird that being rescued isn't as important as catching and killing a pig; Jack makes it seem as though being rescued is not his first priority but being able to kill a pig is. In my opinion, Jack is acting like this because he feels the need to show that he is capable of catching and killing a pig and by doing he would be able to gain back that sense of being tough and ruthless and capable of anything, the same way of feeling he lost when he didn't kill that first pig. To Jack, being able to kill without hesitation, is a quality any great leader should have, but in fact that is not the case. All in all, I feel as though Jack feels he needs to prove something to the other boys, and by proving this to them, in return he feels he will also be proving it to himself. Also, on page 53, before Jack makes the reference to wanting to kill a pig before he leaves the island and Ralph is bringing up the topic of being rescued, no only does he not share Ralph's priority of being rescued, "Jack had to think for a moment before he could remember what rescued was." This quote also stuck out to me because I feel that Jack just may be loosing hope in being found and taken back home, I just feel as though he has given up on the idea. Also, l don't feel Jack is the only one who has given up on hope, I think a few of the other boys may have too.
I completely agree with you. The fact that Jack had to take a moment to remember what being rescued meant was ridiculous. I mean if I was stuck on an island I wouldn't just forget my old life! What you said about Jack wanting to prove himself to the others by killing the pig was very insightful, and now that you pointed it out it makes so much sense to me. He feels that he is losing power over the boys to Ralph, and by denoting Ralph to making shelters, it allows Jack to kill a pig and take back the control he feels is rightfully his.
Delete“Ralph turned to the shelter and lifted a branch with a whole tiling of leaves. The leaves came apart and fluttering down.”(50)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because, the branch and the falling of the leaves could be used as a symbol on how the boys are falling apart as a group. And, how the consequences of their irresponsibility are affecting the group. I like Golding’s wording in this line, using the words tiling and fluttering, because both words have connotations of being peaceful, gentle. Which is ironic to use in this situation of having the boys bickering, acting improper and, slowly turning against each other. For example, by Ralph not helping Jack when he is tired and thirsty and telling him off to get a drink himself. Or, by calling the group of boys hopeless and not “contributing “their part of the work. (Examples could be found on pg 50) I think that in this rate of the boys slowly turning against each other and having an unstable work ethic will ultimately lead to chaos, destruction of the remaining of the island and even death.
"They were both red in the face and found looking at each other difficult. Ralph rolled onto his stomach and began to play with the grass." (p. 52)
ReplyDeleteThis line stuck out to me because it was one of the first times we register any sort of physical reaction to a dilemma. I was surprised by how Ralph reacted to his argument with Jack. It was interesting to me that instead of distancing himself from the situation, he continued to stay in it and just acted immature. By laying on his stomach and playing with the grass, he shows Jack that he is passive in the argument and basically lets him win. This just reminded me how young these kids really are, and how much stress they must be under trying to keep everything from turning to complete chaos. Even though they are immature and lack much knowledge, they have managed to keep their society in order through use of basic skills and morals.
Thinking about Simon and the rest of the boys Ralph says '"People don't help much." He wanted to explain how people were never quite what you thought they were'(54). This quote stood out to me as really the first time Ralph, or any of the boys is thinking about human nature in relation to their situation. They saw before, only what was happening on the island, but not what was developing inside the boys. Ralph realizes that people actually conceal their true feelings. This is displayed in how he keeps on getting into fights with Jack. He realizes that although he and Jack may get along, Jack is really in for his own good, and is using his position to get whta he wants.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Ralph is learning new things about everyone on the island. I think this experience has given Ralph not only study the individuals, but study human nature. To an extent, his time on the island has consisted of studying people, seeing as he has gotten nothing else done(not necessarily his fault). He has learned that it is difficult to get things done in an orderly fashion with kids, and this can apply to anything.
DeleteI think that your distinction between what Jack wants and what Ralph wants is very interesting. I agree that Jack seems to be there so that he can simply hunt pigs and swim. I think that only his own needs motivates Jack. Ralph is another story, it is unclear to me what Ralph's objective is. At times he asserts himself as the leader by using a calm, stern demeanor, and at others he does handstands to express his happiness. Maybe that is the point, he is at that age where you have to start making more important choices and receiving bigger responsibilities. Coming of age definitely ties into this book in many different ways.
Delete"...and his eyes so bright they had deceived Ralph into thinking him delightfully gay and wicked."
ReplyDeleteI think this line is very interesting, it opens up a whole new side to the story. Is Simon actually a weird kid who is bent on bringing this group of boys to their demise? Maybe Simon was actually already on the island before the school kids crashed, maybe he is a non human extension of the island that is hear to spy on the boys. I really don't know, but this quote definitely is implying that Simon is not who he seems. Why is he trying to pretend to be someone he isn't to Ralph? What was that weird last scene where Simon went alone to his little spot? This just goes along with my accusation that Simon has been here longer than these other kids, also why did he speak up when Ralph was talking about the weird vibe to the island? This idea may be a little far fetched but I think that on this island, anything goes.
Henry, this is a very interesting topic you have here and i totally agree with you. I also got that feeling that he has been here longer then the boys, and the part where he just goes crawls up into his tiny spot really shows how he isn't really who he is. His true identity and personality has yet to come out whether it be negative or positive for the survival of the group. This is really good information and we should go into more detail tomorrow.
Delete"Only when Jack himself roused a gaudy bird...a harsh cry that seemed to come out of the abyss of ages. Jack himself shrank at this cry with a hiss of indrawn breath, and for a minute became less a hunter than a furtive thing, ape-like among the tangle of trees." Page 60.
ReplyDeleteDespite the boys' best attempts at telling themselves they are the masters of the island and that it all under their control, this quote shows perfectly how they still know next to nothing about the island and are completely defenseless to the whims of nature. Jack, the big-kid, lead hunter, was horribly scared of a little bird, and his description as "ape-like" communicates that he is as clueless about the island as an animal would be. This is a very different portrayal of Jack than we see immediately before and after this scene, where Jack is focused and absorbed into the jungle during his hunt, and seems like he knows exactly what he is doing. When he is scared to death by a little bird, it just reminds that reader that no how comfortable we may be, even if we feel compeltely in our element, we are never completely immune from nature and each other.
I agree, furthermore, I think you can also say that when Jack sees the pig, he cannot bring himself to kill it, yet he makes himself up to be a large macho killer. It also says that no matter how mature these boys act, by trying to form a civil society, they are still young boys who brag about their parents, and nearly burn down half of their food supply.
Delete“If you’re hunting sometimes... you can feel as if you’re not hunting, but—being hunted, as if something’s behind you all the time in the jungle.” (53)
ReplyDeleteThis quote particularly stood out to me because following my string of other postings, it is not something you would generally associate with boys of this age-thoughts that are this thorough. The boys have or are beginning to show signs of paranoia. Similar to survival shows on television, once people are stranded and must adapt to new surroundings, they change, different things affect them in different ways. The boys are becoming paranoid despite the fact that the boys convince each other that they will be saved, they have not yet made significant progress towards establishing a civilized society. The boys bicker about shelter and hunting, they quickly advance to a heated debate. Jack seems to be loosing his mind because he cannot kill this pig, I believe they will eventually become paranoid and begin to go crazy along with the other boys which will eventually lead to chaos, the exact opposite of their goal.
I agree with you. Also, I think Ralph is trying really hard to keep the boys from becoming paranoid. He says that the shelters are so necessary because they are sort of homes. Homes are same places. Ralph knows that people are becoming paranoid and scared, but he is trying his hardest to keep everyone sane. I think though, that the more time they spend on this island the harder it will be for Ralph or any of the boys to stay sane and in control of their fears.
Delete"Jack crouched with his face a few inches away from this clue, then stared forward into the semi-darkness of the undergrowth. His sandy hair, considerably longer than it had been when they dropped in was lighter; and his bare back was a mass of dark freckles and peeling sunburn"(48)
ReplyDeleteWhen I read this description, and all the ensuing descriptions of Jack, I see him falling apart. Jack was originally the character with all the order, who was used to leading. Now, he seems like a crazed, heat-stroked victim of this abandonment on the island. I'm kind of confused what has caused him to fall apart, because there are so many factors. The pressure on him to try to organize aspects of island life, and the lack of food definitely add to it, but he can also be very homesick and this is where his immature side comes out.
When I read that quote I imagine Jack falling apart too; I almost imagine him as Tarzan kind of. i think that the pressure of being on of the leaders has got to him. These kids probably haven't had a good meal in days maybe even week! And the thought of being able to eat meat again has taken over his mind. If Jack does potentially bring meat to the kids, it can mean that they might be electing a new leader.
Delete"We want meat-" (Jack)
ReplyDelete"we need shelters." (Ralph)
These two quotes caught my attention because it shows how things on the island isn't going the way Ralph originally planned. At first, Ralph made it seem like everything was going to be fine; everyone will be fine and soon help will come and rescue the kids. The kids are not working together as a whole and they haven't had any real food in a while. Jack hasn't been able to hunt for any pigs to feed the kids meat and Ralph isn't doing a good job building a shelter in case a storm of some sort hits the island. And Ralph's dad still hasn't come rescue them yet. At this point of the story, things are already starting to go down hill. The leaders realize that being a leader isn't as easy as they thought it would be: its actually a lot of responsibility.
I agree! It shows, that although they are the leaders, they don't know anything. They are realizing the consequences of being a leader. In the beginning, before they figured out what needed to be done, their goal was to attain power. Once they gained the power, they figured because of the situation they are in, they must do something or else they will die. They begin to take action, then when they realize they are not able to handle the responsibility, they may fall. I think that the idea of power was so amazing to them, and they were caught up in the fact that everyone would follow them, that they did not think of the consequences.
Delete“And they keep running off. You remember the meeting? How everyone was going to work hard until the shelters were finished?” (50).
ReplyDeleteI think that this quote represents how the order the Ralph and Jack put in is falling. It worked well for the first few days, when no one really knew what was going on, but now that the boys are getting into the swing of things, they want less and less to do with the rules. They are just boys, therefore they are used to having everything ready for them. If they are hungry, they ask their parents, or if they need anything they ask their parents. They are used to have someone to rely on, and not all of them notice that they no longer really have someone they can fall back on. The kids are not able to rely on themselves to survive, which is why their sort of rule is becoming chaotic. This may connect back to when kids have no adults around, they think they don’t have to listen to what anyone has to say. This in any situation would cause chaos, and if Ralph and Jack don’t begin listening to what Piggy has to say, this could get worse.
Today's reading was interesting and i want to focus on Jack today. "He tried to convey the compulsion to track down and kill that was swallowing him up. I went on, I thought, by myself. The madness came into his eyes again" (51). I thought this was really important because it shows how certain circumstances and locations can bring the reality of a person out. Jack who was portrayed as a calm character who volunteered to be a hunter soon was going mad because he was not able to catch this pig. This obstacle was driving him crazy and that craziness i think is going to be apart of his personality from now on because things will not get any better, Jack has his opinion of the group needing food and Ralph has his opinion of the group needing shelter. Jack's real personality has come out and maybe if he captures the pig at one time he will be back to normal but after the conflict he had with Ralph, he was releasing his anger and Ralph and Simon will not forget this and this is going to impact how they think of Jack from now on. I thought this was important because it talks about how Jack has been effected quite negativity from this experience.
ReplyDelete"[Jack] tried to convey the compulsion to track down and kill that was swallowing him up." (47)
ReplyDeleteThis quote shows the transformation that Jack has made since coming to the island. He used to be leader of the choir, and now he is blood thirsty. Part of the reason i believe Jack is the one that is now crazy, while ralph continues to act sane is because Jack's group is in charge of the fire. As we talked about earlier, the fire is symbolic for chaos and destruction, while the conch, Ralph's order of power, is seen as something that keeps order. However, at the end of the day, all work aside, they can still be common people at the bathing spring. The spring might symbolize a sort of neutral area when it comes to the island, apart from the pushes and pulls of the two sides; corruption and order. I wonder if the rest of the stories the characters will continue to act based on the path they have chosen to take on the island.
"when he was secured in the middle he was in a little cabin screened off from the open space by a few leaves. He squatted down, parted the leaves, and looked out into the clearing." (57)
ReplyDeleteI think this whole part is symbolic. When simon goes into the 'little cabin' he shuts himself off from the wild, but the author makes a point of saying that he is only separated by a few leaves. This is symbolic of our society because we have shut ourselves off from the wild but in reality we are only separated by a few leaves, this thin separation also symbolizes how easy it is for us to slip back into our animalistic state that we have theoretically evolved from and overcome. When simon pulls back the leaves and looks at the forest around him sees it all from a different perspective. He is no longer part of the forest he is now looking at it as an observer. This reminds me of someone watching TV, they are not part of the TV they are only watching the screen. I also think this scene is important because it is on the cover of some of the books, the picture of simon looking threw the leaves so the author must have meant this scene to be significant.
I agree, Bea because you can tell how some of the boys are straying for society, like them going in to the woods hunting, even though they are trying to survive on this island they probably never hunted or anything because they still are innocent children. Also maybe Simon separating himself from the chaos that's around him is helping him cope with the situation that they are in.
Delete"I was talking about the smoke! Don't you want to get rescued? All you can talk about is pig, pig, pig!" (54) Does Jack want to get rescued? Or is he trying to prove that he can kill the pig? I think that Jack really does want to get rescued but maybe he is just losing hope, because most of what they had done failed like making a fire which turned in to a forest fire and the little boy that is missing and might even be dead because of their mistake. But maybe Jack is just using the pig to distract himself from the situtation that they are in, but also he could just be using the pig to prove to the other boys that he can kill something, since the last time missed and said "i'll get it next time" almost like it was a promise.
ReplyDelete"They walked along, two continents of experience and feeling, unable to communicate." (49)
ReplyDeleteIn chapter 2, this is where Jack and Ralph really clash for the first time. They both have different objectives on the island. The whole chapter all Jack can focus is killing the pig whereas Ralph is trying to get rescued. I think this quote is suggesting that the ability to stay connected and united as a group is going to be a lot harder than having a speaking conch. Both boys strive for leadership, but both were raised very differently and they have different motives on the island. I think that this quote shows the distance between the boys and how hard it will be to all work together to be saved.
"The best thing we can do is get ourselves rescued."
ReplyDeleteJack had to think for a moment before he could remember what rescue was. (53)
I found this quote to be a little shocking. The island has completely affected them- taking over their way of thinking. Its almost as if they've forgotten the way they lived before. They're forgetting themselves and there isn't anything they can do to grasp that memory. Not only is this quite unsettling, but its also depressing because there isnt anything they can do to go back to the way they once were.