Post your reader responses here: Choose a line or two from Chapter 7 and explain why it stands out to you. Does this line shock you, confuse you, or seem important in some way? Does it make you ask a question? Can you make a connection to your life or another text? Does the language stand out to you for some reason? What is this line saying about the characters in the novel and about people or the world, in general?
Then, respond to a classmate's post. Agree or disagree, but make sure that you add something new-- a new idea, a reference to another part of the book. Include textual evidence as you push the conversation forward. Ask more questions to keep the dialogue going...and remember-- this assignment is all about thinking/analysis.
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ReplyDeleteIt was very interesting to read this chapter. The character of the boar is significant factor in this book. At first, they did not believe much on the beast and now they just want to hunt it down and kill it. It is very amusing because this compares human instinct and savagery. It seems to me that as they devolve, human instinct becomes savagery, because there are no rules or restrictions. A shocking line that confused me was, "'Kill the pig! Cut his throat! Kill the pig! Bash him in!'". It confused me they ALL became attracted to this idea of killing the so-called monster. Even Ralph did! And Ralph was the one that thought it was cruel and unjust. The wording of the sentence is also very harsh for 12 year old's. The phrases "cut his throat" and "bash him in" symbolizes loss of innocence. They are talking like assassins and murderers. Its pretty sad and even kids nowadays say that. At first you don't mean much of it because they are playing around, but it actually is very serious. I wonder how different it would be if adults were stuck on this island. Would they turn into a downward spiral into savagery, or, will they turn into a productive society?
ReplyDeleteLily Cook
DeleteLupe-I agree with you. It surprised me as well when Ralph joined in on the killing of
the pig, because it didn't seem like that would be something that his character would do. I agree that the savage words used resembled loss of innocence, which continues to be a running theme in the book. To try and answer the question you asked, in my opinion I think adults would also turn into a downward spiral in savagery if they were on the island, but even more so than the kids.
I also found it surprising that Ralph was so excited to hunt, which makes me wonder if Ralph is turning into Jack by letting his ideas of civilization drift away. In addition, I agree with Lily that if adults were to be the ones stuck on the island, they would not create a productive society. Although adults tend to be more educated than kids, I feel that adults would have a greater need for power therefore would sabotage each other in order to be in control; on the other hand, kids accept and do not question the rules set by a leader.
Delete"They got his arms and legs. Ralph, carried away by a sudden thick excitement, grabbed Eric's spear and jabbed at Robert with it. 'Kill him! Kill him!' (114)
ReplyDeleteThis scene occurs right after the boys have an encounter with a pig. Although the pig got away, the boys were still riled up after the hunt and got into a craze so they decide to reenact what had happened. They pretend Robert is the pig and so Ralph takes Eric's spear and starts jabbing at him with it. Although it doesn't end well, when they loose track that it is just play and Robert is nearly killed. When I read this page I was frightened for Robert. He is screaming and struggling for his life and the boys around him don't even notice/care really. Robert was basically helpless throughout their entire play. He kept screaming and the others just kept jabbing. If I were in his position, I don't even know what I would do to help myself. Yell? Kick? The fact that the boys got so crazed about the hunt that they used one of their own to act as the pig is disturbing in a way. What would you do in Robert's position? Do you think the boys went a little too far? What does this say about how they treat one another?
I completely agree with you. I think that the kids are just losing their innocence and relying on violence as distraction. It is actually pretty weird that they care more about killing the animal instead of getting off the island. This society isn't even a society anymore. Its a bunch of killings now. Its sad. I don't know what I would do if my brother turned like that. I would be scared.
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ReplyDeleteThe island’s toll is expressed in the boy’s actions. Their new behavior comes in stages, first the boy’s paranoia and beginning to believe that monsters inhabit the island. Some characters such as Simon begin to show the signs of being on an island where “anything goes”. “…’You’re batty.’ Simon shook his head violently till the coarse black hair flew backwards and forwards across his face”. (Page 111). This haunting illustration of the islands effects on the boys suggests that some societal influence is not only good but also necessary. I think this is interesting because up until now we have seen only effects on society that we have brought up have been negative. This shows that some societal influence is imperative to staying sane.
ReplyDeleteLily Cook
ReplyDeleteThe line that stood out most to me in this chapter was when it was said about Ralph that he "would treat the day's decisions as though he were playing chess. The only trouble was that he would never be a very good chess player." I think that throughout the book Ralph has good intentions, and he tries hard to bring order to the chaos that is the island. So I think that it is harsh that it says he will "never" be a very good chess player. This is much more harsh than if it said that Ralph simply wasn't a good chess player. I don't fully agree with that evaluation of Ralph's abilities, because I believe that Ralph has proved through the chapters that he can make good decisions; or at least better decisions than the others in the group.
Interesting comment, Lily. What you're mostly making me think about and wonder to myself now is the fact that every leader has their flaws and things that they aren't so good at. Ralph is a good leader in some ways, like you said, but in the same way that he "would never be a very good chess player" he also has qualities that aren't great. I think a lot about our leaders today and how they either have flaws that can be easy to deal with or flaws that are crucial to our society. What is the right time to step up and over throw a leader or voice your opinion on their issues? Can we cut them a certain amount of slack for their flaws or is there a line that if crossed, gives the people a legitimate excuse to try and take them down?
DeleteI do believe that the symbolic use of being a good or bad chess player strongly related to his ability to be a strong or weak leader. Ralph's leadership skills may not be the best, but they are good enough to have kept them all alive on the island for this long. Although he is not a bad leader, he is not a good one either. I don't see Ralph improving at "chess" (being a good leader) at all. He seems to go back to the same things over and over again, which is frustrating to not only himself, but others on the island.I personally believe that if he weren't so stubborn and hard-headed, and listened to others, then he might be a better leader.
DeleteThe scene in which Roger was being carried and Ralph was jabbing Eric's spear at him was very traumatizing. I honestly didn't know how to react. At first, I thought it was boys being boys and joking around, but then Roger screamed for help and not one person recognized how scared he was. The boys were so caught up in reenacting the pig scene that they didn't realize Roger was being hurt by them. I think this relates to bullying in real life, when people say or do things that hurt others unintentionally. I think that the boys should really consider thinking before they actually joke around.
ReplyDeleteAlso, what stood out to me the most was this quote, "Ralph too was fighting to get near, to get a handful of that brown, vulnerable flesh. The desire to square and hurt was over-mastering". Okay. This was beyond disturbing. I would have never expected things like this going through Ralph's head. What happened to giving sugar to the ponies? But then again, these boys are in an island and need to survive any way possible, so I guess it's okay to think about eating your friend.
I completely agree that this scene was disturbing and very unexpected. I don't think they were really going to eat Roger to any extent, but their actions towards him show how desperate they are to kill something. It seems to be their natural human instinct to shift towards savagery, and since they lack the proper hunting skills to successfully catch a pig, i think that their violence towards Roger is a mere outcome of their hunger for blood.
DeleteI agree with you on your bullying point, sometimes people get so caught up in the excitement of things that they don't know when to stop (great connection!). However I don't think it's acceptable for you to consider eating your friend, unless you're starving, because if it's between saving your own life or your friend's life, you will probably pick to save yourself. In the boys' case they are not staving to death, there is fruit and other things they can eat on the island. The way the boys ganged up on Robert was just stupid.
DeleteI believe this ignoring of Roger is not purely bullying but the savage like ways of the boys showing through. I also found this disturbing and such a huge change if you look back at the first chapter and the wonder and joy they found in the island and creating order. Now, because order was too hard to forge they have turned to the complete opposite. I don't know how much longer the boys will be able to go through this without full fledged violence.
DeleteSomething that really stuck with me throughout this chapter is what we as humans are willing to do to stay in power, and why it's such a valuable thing. It struck me when Ralph chose to go along with the rest of the hunters on their way up the mountain, even though he didn't want to travel in the nighttime. He made the choice to do something against his will just to stay a part of a bigger group and not give up his authority to someone else. On page 132, Jack says, "'Why don't you go? Are you frightened?'" I read this and automatically imagined Ralph feeling belittling and challenged. Ralph is normally very clear about what he wants done, but it is interesting to me that the second someone challenges his authority he shrinks and finds himself doing whatever the challenger wants in order to retain his power. But that's not very powerful... Following someone else in hope to keep your authority in shape. This makes me think, what are we willing to do to make guarantee our power in a community? Even if this means embarrassing yourself and hurting your reputation. And, is it worth it?
ReplyDeleteI completely agree, seeing as the entire book so far is one big power struggle between Jack and Ralph. There is never a time when Jack does not cease to question Ralphs power and authoritative control, and the instance of climbing the mountain only further stresses this. In response to your question I actually think it is somewhat of a conundrum, because if someone over power is willing to sway and change to the liking of the masses, then it could be argued that that person is no longer in control, and is instead solely an outlet for the disposition of said masses.
DeleteI agree, its interesting that both boys seem to be more concerned with who has more power then being rescued. Jack especially seems to go to extreme lengths to gain respect and power. He asserts his dominance over others by taunting weaker members of the troup, such as Piggy. To answer your question, I don't think it is worth it for the boys to obsess over power. In the end, what are they really gaining? As tensions between Ralph and Jack heighten, civility between the boys begins to diminish.
DeleteIn the chapter, the boys get very rowdy over hunting a pig. They reenact the scene and use Robert as the pig. When the boys get carried away, they almost kill Robert. It is then suggested that they use an actual pig the next time they play this "game." "'You want a real pig,' said Robert, still caressing his rump,'because you've got to kill him.' 'Use a littleun,' said Jack, and everybody laughed" (p.115). This part particularly stood out to me because Jack's sense of humor is not even considerably funny. He is joking about the death of one of the small children, which would be a terrible death. I think that Jack was attempting to show his power over all the younger kids by telling this joke. It would scare them into obeying and respecting him out of fear. Jack likes knowing that he is in power or that people fear him. I think that this is where you see a distinct difference between Jack and Ralph. Jack is power hungry and gets it through fear, whereas Ralph likes to be in power and goes about it in a peaceful and more humane way.
ReplyDeleteI agree with this completely. I think through out the book Jack has looked at this experience in a humorous manor. He doesn't seem to want to take in the seriousness of the situation. I think he does this because he is truly scared, but can not show his fear, so uses the others fear to seem brave and strong. Making this "game" okay to him.
DeleteWhat I thought was interesting in this chapter was Ralphs inability to resist the hunt. Through out the entire book, Ralph has not given in to this display of savagery, and is mainly what made him stand out as a leader. While the other boys would run around chanting and screaming and overall acting barbaric, Ralph never seamed to stray from his duties as leader. Which included constant yelling and discipline of almost all the other children, unsequentially making out to seem like the bad guy. But finally Ralph gave in to the uncivilized display of childsplay. I think Golding I trying to show that no matter what, it is impossible for man to eventually resist returning to a state of savagery, given the circumstances.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your point that eventually, in a boundless and land with no laws of society, humans placed there will become natural, and completely forget any laws the society they came from had in place. However, I think that although Ralph gets carried away in the excitement of the hunt, he initially joins in to actually abide by the laws of the society on the island and reestablish himself as a leader. When placed in a natural state, humans will create new laws and rules that properly fit the situation.
DeleteI agree that Ralph seems to be a different person in this chapter and that he displays an act of savagery. The fact that he began to throw spears at the pig and join the boys in attacking Robert, makes him a really childish leader. Just one thing I know this was probably by accident, but remember to put a quote to show evidence of your reasoning.
DeleteWhen the boys are about to go hunting, Ralph begins to have daydreams about a life where “everything was all right; everything was good-humored and friendly” (112). I think that William Golding includes this quote to compare the savage and uncivilized life that Ralph currently has on the island versus the order and peace that he used to have back at home. Right after these daydreams, “the bushes crashed ahead of them;” I think that Golding purposely creates this violent interruption not only to get Ralph’s mind back into reality, but also to demonstrate to readers that the hopes of civilization on the island continues to decrease among the boys (113). I wonder is Golding uses Ralph’s daydreams to foreshadow possible events that may occur to the boys which will improve their lives on the island.
ReplyDeleteThis also stands out to me. I remember in the beginning of the book, he had is socks rolled down and once he heard someone, he rolled them back up as if he had to go back to reality from a dream. I see his character does this a lot; he wants to forget about everything and day dream. It’s his escape meconium; I think this also relates how he became very lazy in chapter 6 with being a leader.
Delete"Everything was all right; everything was good humored and friendly"(112). I liked how Golding purposely placed this line right before the boys began to attack the boar. Ralph's flashback is like 'the calm before the storm'. The 'storm' part being how they nearly beat Robert to death and then how Jack suggested to kill a littlun. I thought it was terrible for him to say such a thing, but then again I'm not surprised that it was Jack who said it, since he's obsessed with hunting. However I was surprised that Ralph would go along with this "game" since he usually acts sane. I think that a shift happened among the boys in this chapter, and it's definitely not a good one.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, that it does shows a shift of character among the group of boys. I also believe that the shift is a bad one, because they seemed a bit to happy when they were beating up Robert.Golding might have put this scene to represent that the boys are losing connection to civil society,and are becoming more savage to stay alive on this island until they are rescue.
Delete"The twins nodded like one boy,"(115). This question was brought up in class today and I thought that it was interesting that it was brought up again in this chapter. I think that Golding characterizes Sam and Eric as one to show how dependent they are. They seem to always be together and have the same ideas and thoughts and as the book goes on, their names are even put together. I think their situation is shown in the book to show how dependent people are and how it is hard to become an individual or just stop. I think that the idea of society and structuring the boys as they grow will come up and play a big part. The boys seem to be acting pretty independent but at the beginning of the chapter Ralph talks about home life, making me wonder if the boys can really survive without their society and being independent.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Sam and Eric are very dependent on each other and Golding makes this very obvious throughout the book. I think it is important to note that, more than likely, these 2 grew up in a similarly dependent fashion off the island and are just continuing to live the way they used to. But this kind of ties back to your other point about the boys surviving in a new society; by carrying over their dependent behaviors from their old society to the one on the island, Sam and Eric are showing how people will adapt to new situations and societies using experience from old ones. This doesn't apply to the littluns, who lack societal experience and influence, so they are forced to make things up for themselves as they go along.
DeleteI love that you bring up "Samneric", I feel like they don't get enough time in the book or our discussions and they are very interesting characters. You are right about how they symbolize the dependency of people on one another in society, but I think there is a brighter side to it than it just being hard to individualize. I feel as if the synchronizing of the brothers in everything they do serves to show the importance of communication and willingness to understand each other. These two were born with the gift of always being to empathize and grow with another person. They have mastered communication on a profound level with another person, and look how well they do. There never seems to be any sort of trouble arising from them, no eminent quarrels, nothing detrimental to the group as a whole has come from these two. The reason they trouble doesn't follow them is because they don't focus on mundane things such as power; they keep their eyes on the prize and zone in on themselves.
DeleteIn this chapter we find the boys becoming more and more like savages. They clearly worry about their survival and seem to hallucinate often. What was most shocking was the amount of violence in this chapter. Ralph's and personality is looked at differently,because of his attitude while chasing the pig and basically almost killing Robert. '"Just a game" said Ralph uneasily..."You want a pig" said Roger, "like a real hunt." "Or someone to pretend," said Jack. "You could get someone to dress up as a pig and then he could act"..."You want a real pig," said Robert, still caressing his rump, "because you've got to kill him" "Use a littlun" said Jack, and everybody laughed.' (115) what is interesting about this dialogue is the savagery that Jack, Ralph and the other boys. Three major points were brought to my attention in this dialogue. One, Jack has become a cold-blooded killer, he becomes obsessed with killing. The fact that he didn't care that he was killing a human or a boy that was part of his group, it didn't matter as long as he was killing something. Two, I noticed that the boys begin to hallucinate because while they were throwing spears at Robert they say "kill the pig" (114), which was a shocker. Another sign that they were hallucinating was after the quote that I wrote, Ralph is snapped back into reality and realizes that they can't be acting harshly toward other people because of their distress of not catching a pig, and becomes a leader again and tells them that the need to try harder and kill a real pig. Three, why did the boys think it was a game, to throw spears at an innocent boys? The fact that they thought it was okay to torture him shows a lack of organization. This made me realize that they are loosing there past ways of lives. If they were to tease a kid in their past life they knew that there would be consequences from an adult figure, but since they are there own leaders they know that there won't be any consequences.
ReplyDeleteIn this chapter, we truly get a real glimpse of the children's inner savagery coming to the surface. "The desire to squeeze and hurt was over-mastering" (115). This made me think about whether or not we all have the ability and even desire for cruelty and brutality within ourselves naturally, or if rather in given circumstances like what the boys are in, they occur and fester on their own. Perhaps it is only in a situation where survival is the number one priority, that a need for violence, not just only out of society, but for pleasure, becomes present. As the boys spend more and more time on the island, their animalistic instincts will become ever more noticeable and their human ways and morals will continue to diminish.
ReplyDelete"'Kill the pig! Cut his throat! Kill the pig! Bash him in!'".
ReplyDeleteThis chapter compelled me in many ways. It seems as we keep going farther into the book, we see one by one each kid being sucked in, almost beckoned, by the idea of savagery. Ralph is the newest victim, although in previous chapters would show the contrary to his new behavior. I thought Ralph was the good one, trying to protect the integrity of his people, and rebuild a civilization. Instead we see him trying to hunt down this boar with the rest of the boys, almost all of which have become savages themselves. This attributed to loss of power that Ralph has felt through the last two chapters. At this point Jack's idea of violence and killing has almost replaced all of what Ralph has been trying to teach the boys about building a functional civilization. Hopefully Ralph can regain control of the group, so they have a better chance of getting off the island, but more importantly a better chance of surviving.
I agree and think it the effect that they're having on each other alone on the island. If everyone else on the island was as good as Ralph and piggy then there would be no more of this savagery but instead they are infected by people like jack that makes it seem appealing to do these bad things.
DeleteI was shocked to see the huge shift in Ralph's character. Throughout the book, he is the one who has fought to maintain order. In this chapter, Ralph begins to become more savage when out hunting, unable to resist the thrill of the hunt. He gets too carried away when teasing a young boy, suddnely taken over by a need to" get a handful of that brown, vulnerable flesh. The desire to squeeze and hurt was over-mastering" (115). I had always thought that out of all the boys, Ralph is the least likely to be overcome by more savage ways. Even Ralph, the leader of the group, is easily taken over by his animlaistic qualities.
ReplyDeleteGood point, Ruby. I also feel that Ralph is becoming this savage, hungry for flesh boy, instead of the nice kid who was a leader to these boys. Also you can see now that the boys are almost leaning towards their being a leadership from jack. This only marks the beginning of the decline. If Ralph can't find himself again they are going slowly descent into chaos.
DeleteOne sentence that stood out to me was when Golding wrote,"-Ralph was content to follow Jack along it."(109)This shows a change of character in which at the beginning the boys elected Ralph to be leader, and he seemed fairly pleased about it,but now it seems that he is not so much into being leader anymore,and instead will like to see Jack take control sometimes.This soon leads to Ralph having memories of his life,and it represents him being homesick,but it can also symbolize, I think how Ralph as a individual is having these memories to not lose his connection to civil society. I mean up until now Golding has not made the boys have memories of their pass,and now the boys are acting more savage than before,for example beating up Robert and being a little to happy about it,"The desire to squeeze and hurt was over-mastering."(115).And Ralph might have stopped this before in the beginning,if he still had more desire to be leader.
ReplyDeleteThe beginning of the chapter was significant to me. It starts off by describing their new surroundings on the other side of the island, and how they are now able to see how crisp the ocean is. While Ralph was wandering down the rocks, the narrator says "Here, on the other side of the island, the view was utterly different. The filmy enchantments of mirage could not endure the cold ocean water and the horizon was hard, clipped blue." (110). To me, this signifies that the boys are becoming aware of their reality. Like the ocean, it's clear, crisp, undeniable, and altogether frightening and overwhelming. This is a startling contrast to the foggy lagoon, which give us a sense of false tranquility as we do not know what to make of it. You can tell Ralph especially is taking notice of their condition by how he is comparing it to his memory of the standards back home - measuring how dirty they are and wishing he could wash up with soap. By longing for the criterion that is associated with his home, does this mean that Ralph and the boys will make a more realistic attempt to get off the island? To work together and survive even?
ReplyDelete"The desire to squeeze and hurt was over-mastering" I really didn't have that shocked of a reaction to this turn of events in the series. It to me just became expected of these children who instead of focusing on being rescued are killing pigs and running from fictional creatures. What startled me was that Ralph the one who's supposed to be a symbol for civilization and order joined in on the slaughter. What happens when the most virtuous person in a room full of delinquents is corrupted? Will the entire island now fall apart because this person couldn't keep there savages urges in check, or will someone rise to the occasion to right the other leaders wrongs.
ReplyDeletei agree and disagree, Senegal. For the hunters these actions were not very surprising while for Ralph they were very shocking. i don't think the island will fall apart because this got me thinking that good and bad seem relative when it comes to this island. To me this "savage" behavior is becoming the norm in the society. I think the savage actions of the boys will keep the island in some sort of new order.
DeleteFrom chapter 7 of "Lord of the Flies", a sentence that stood out to me was: "A stain in the darkness, a stain that was Jack, detached itself and began to draw away" (121). Golding is writing that Ralph literally sees Jack as a "stain" against the darkness. However, I think this passage has much more meaning to it then its literal interpretation. I think Golding is using this passage as a metaphor for the way Ralph views things. The general "darkness" that Ralph is seeing represents the deteriorating state of the boys on the island, giving the sense that he does not like the situation the boys are in now and does not think the future looks too bright for them either. Calling Jack a "stain" is also symbolic because if it weren't for Jack, Ralph would have total, unquestioned control over the boys. But Jack is always there, getting in Ralph's way and disrupting him, much like a stain on a piece of clothing ruins the overall image.
ReplyDelete"Before them, something like a great ape was sitting asleep with its head between its knees" (123). To me, this just illustrates how long these kids have been on their own away from adults and grown used to living in a community only with other children. They see a grown man sitting with his head in his lap and it appears to them as a "great ape." Despite this, the fact that they don't instantly recognize the man as a male adult and instantly think that they are being rescued speaks to their growing independence. They have been on the island long enough to actually think about survival and not just aimlessly hope to be rescued.
ReplyDeleteOh good point, I think I agree. When I first read that I thought that they were amagining and it was just a patch of grass or something. But now that you say that it makes me think differently.
Delete-Marcello Brattesani
"He turned his left forearm for them all to see. On the outside was a rip; not much, but bloody" (114). Golding presents Jack as truly savage in this part with a visual image of his tattered clothing and blood seeping through what was once a shell to all the boys, uniformity. At this moment it is not just the threat of turning into savages, but the actual image. And that Golding say he "turned for them all to see" gives an air of him showing off his one with the island and hunting that is turning him mad. This makes me question, does this happen to all people when we are away from society long enough? Or is it just certain characters who decsend into insanity?
ReplyDeleteI see exactly what youre saying Eve! The imagery has finally become clear at this point in the story. I think Jack is a symbol of the island, and what is capable of it. To answer your question, in my opinion it is up to the character. Some characters are able to keep their composure in the wild, like Ralph. While others like Jack and the hunters feed off of the blood and persona of a crazed human being. Although, can this be a good thing or a bad thing while living on the island?
Delete"Everything was all right; everything was good humored and friendly"(112) was the line that stood out to me the most. I have been reading a lot of comments about this quote as well. A lot of my fellow class mates have mostly said that it could be a way of ralph to be getting away of reality and being in peace. I must say I do agree but you do see this throughout the book he has been a natural leader since birth. I believe it was in chapter 6 when he was thinking about home and he was having tea and in chapter one, one of the first things you know he is a school boy. This means he is naturally wealthy and of high power, it is no surprise he would be a leader on the island. Yet on the other hand, he has always contradicted himself by trying to make a peaceful world in his head.
ReplyDeleteA important line I chose was when Simon says to Ralph, "You'll get back all right". I thought this quote was very interesting in comparison to Ralph's huge change in character throughout this chapter. I saw that in the beginning of the chapter Ralph seems very lost and Simon still has to reassure him that they will return home. However later on Ralph begins to try to regain his reputation by joining the hunters and enjoy hunting. I thought this was interesting because earlier Simon had to renforce hope within Ralph saying that he will get back alright. now i am seeing that he will not really return "alright". I see him getting back in this new state, that has adapted to the life of the island. As he had to be reminded, i think that the hope has really left him and this is why he decides to turn to hunting. Along with keeping up his reputation, Ralph is leaving behind his hope and is picking up this new way of life.
ReplyDeleteYea, I definitely noticed this change of hope in Ralph. If you look at it from beginning up to now there's a pronounced contrast in the way Ralph presents himself to the other boys. At first he tries his best to promote order and be a role model for the littluns but now it seems as if he is just following everyone else, trying to fit in. An interesting part is in the beginning of the chapter where he notices how different his appearance is in terms of his hair and how that may symbolize his separation from civilization and into savagery.
DeleteI also found this interesting, considering that at the beginning of the book, it was Ralph who was reassuring everyone else that they would get back home when no one else had confidence. The roles of leadership have really changed throughout the story, and as the book describes, Ralph is leading the society playing his moves like a chess game, although he isn't very good at chess. He doesn't know what he's doing anymore and needs to rely on the help of others, like Jack, so I think he's not really worried with his reputation at this point.
DeleteOne of the parts that stood out to me was when Jack comes up with the idea of treating the littluns as animals that they can attack. This, I think is a foreshadow of more dangerous events to come later. By bringing up this idea Jack proves that he has no regard for the littluns safety and wellbeing. Another interesting point is how Ralph got caught up in the excitement and was actually enthusiastic about joining the boys in their little "game". The fact that Ralph, who would probably be the last one to participate in such acts, actually joins in shows how humans will tend to lean towards savagery even though someone like Ralph believes in order and civilization. The fact that someone like Ralph who the whole time has believed in order is now doing such acts may foreshadow even more dangerous events.
ReplyDeleteI like how you said "their little 'game'". But they still seem to be taking it seriously and I agree that it might be a game though.
Delete"'Kill the pig! Cut his throat! Kill the pig! Bash him in!'" pg. 104. The boys are hunting a pig again, and they get extremely caught up in killing the thing and taking pride in it. The pig escapes, and they decide to reenact the scene with Robert as the pig. This stood out to me because they were thinking almost exactly the same thing even when Robert was the pig, to kill him cut his throat and bash him in, and as a result, they almost killed Robert. It shows that the importance to them is not getting the pig, but just the exhilaration of actually killing something, since they almost felt that same feeling while pretending with Robert. The island brought out their inner savagery, blinding them from realizing that they harmed one of their own, to make up for their cruel fantasies. Golding is showing that even the most innocent of humans, little kids, can be corrupted by human's natural state of savagery and selfishness, when in the right conditions.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree, but why is their always one who knows the right thing says it but doesnt stand up for it? is it always like this in a group? Is Piggy like the Jesus of the group? What do you think???
DeleteIn this chapter, "Shadows and Tall Trees" there is a constant battle of which leader is less afraid, or more determined to continue the search for the beast. A quote that stands out to me is, " Now that his physical voice was silent, the inner voice of reason, and other voices too, made themselves heard. Piggy was calling him a kid. Another voice told him not to be a fool" (122). This stood out to me because Ralph feels the stresses of adult hood, and the fears that come along with it. I think the use of "voices" is significant in this chapter im just not sure what it means. But my interpretation is that although he is quiet on the outside, he is still nervous on the inside. Mainly because he is afraid to be a fool, consequently Piggy (who has been called a fool many times) is criticizing Ralph. For once he is afraid of what Piggy thinks, but it did motivate him to continue trekking for the beast. Are either Ralph or Jack ready to take control? Do their fears still prevent them from acheiving their goal, as adults?
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that jack and ralph are in a struggle for power. To answer your question I don't think they are ready to take control. Jack is a great example's of one of the boys that civilization is wearing off of. Meanwhile Ralph is more humane and well behaved, but has trouble gaining respect from the boys because he is powerful enough with them. I still think Ralph is the better leader, for example when they act out the boar chase, using one of the boys as the boar, Ralph makes sure that they stop before it became dangerous.
DeleteIn this chapter again we see the power of the human instinct toward savagery. With the boar hunt and the game the boys play afterward. Up to this point in the novel, Ralph has been greatly baffled about why the fact that the other boys were more concerned with hunting, bullying, and feasting than with building huts, maintaining the signal fire, and trying to be rescued. But in this chapter when he joins the boar hunt, Ralph is unable to avoid his second nature; the instinctive excitement of the hunt and gets caught up in the other boys drive for the blood of the animal. In this specific part of the chapter, Golding is saying that every individual, regardless of their strength or beliefs, has an undeniable and innate drive toward savagery and cruelty.
ReplyDeleteA quote that stook out to mes was, "The desire to squeeze and hurt was over-mastering" (115). The inextricable connection between the thrill of the hunt and the desire for power goes throughout this chapter. Robert, the boy who stands in for the boar in the reenactment, is nearly killed as the other boys again get caught up in their excitement and lose sight of the limits of the game in their mad desire to kill. Afterward, when Jack suggests killing a littlun in place of a pig, the group laughs. At this point, probably none of them—except possibly Jack and Roger—would go so far as to actually carry out such a plan. Nonetheless, the fact that the boys find the possibility exciting rather than horrifying is rather unsettling. By this point, the conflict between Ralph and Jack has escalated to a real struggle for power, as Jack’s brand of violence and savagery almost completely replaces Ralph’s disciplined community in the boys’ conception of their lives on the island. Ralph’s exhilaration in the hunt and his participation in the ritual that nearly kills Robert is, in a sense, a major victory for Jack, for the experience shakes Ralph’s confidence in his own instinct toward morality and order. As befits a power struggle in a savage group, the conflict between Ralph and Jack manifests itself not as a competition to prove who would be the better leader but instead as a competition of sheer strength and courage.
ReplyDelete"They got his arms and legs. Ralph, carried away by a sudden thick excitement, grabbed Eric's spear and jabbed at Robert with it." (pg-114). When I read this I thought of their society as being a distopia because of the way that they are acting. They were acting like savages, carrying this kid around like that. But in other parts of the book I think of their society somewhat as a utopia.
ReplyDelete-Marcello Brattesani
In chapter 7 we learn a lot more about Ralph. We not only see him start to change as a leader, but also how he became a good leader. On pg. 112 we learn about his childhood, “Mummy had still been with them and daddy had come home every day.” Golding makes it sound as if Ralph’s Mom died or left him, this would explain why he never bring up his mom yet talks about his father so fondly. We also know that his dad has a very intense job in the marines, and the way Ralph talks about it on pg.112 makes it seem like he is a work most of the time. This would explain why Ralph is such a natural leader, because he always had to take care of himself as a kid. This would also explain the way he reacted to Piggy when he talked about his own parent’s death. Just like at the beginning of the book, when Ralph was in denial about the plane crash, he is still in denial about his mother. We know this because he never brings her up, unlike Piggy who is very straightforward.
ReplyDelete"Ralph...was fighting to get near....The desire to squeeze and hurt was over-mastering."
ReplyDeleteThis lined shocked me, because I assumed Golding made Ralph out to be an angelic character who would not become a savage like the other boys, but this quote proves my assumption wrong. Ralph is in fact like the other boys. He has an unexplainable feeling inside of him which wants to kill and enjoy it. Though I respect Golding's negative view of human nature, I have to disagree. I think the fact that the boys fought for a long time to suppress these savage feelings proves that there is a good that lives with in us that knows right from wrong. I don't think, for the most part, that the boys want to hurt each other because they are evil, but rather they are going insane. They are trapped on an island with no adults and no way to go home, which must have a psychological toll on the young boys. Golding does portray the inner struggle between embracing ones savage side, or staying civilized, which is a struggle all the boys are facing.
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