Post your reader responses here: Choose a line or two from Chapter 7 and explain why it stands out to you. Does this line shock you, confuse you, or seem important in some way? Does it make you ask a question? Can you make a connection to your life or another text? Does the language stand out to you for some reason? What is this line saying about the characters in the novel and about people or the world, in general?
Then, respond to a classmate's post. Agree or disagree, but make sure that you add something new-- a new idea, a reference to another part of the book. Include textual evidence as you push the conversation forward. Ask more questions to keep the dialogue going...and remember-- this assignment is all about thinking/analysis.
"Everything was alright, everything was good-humored and friendly." (112)
ReplyDeleteRight before this quote, the narrator explains to you Ralphs life before he got sent away to school and then stranded on an island. It almost sounds like a Utopic kind of place, at least compared to the island that he now lives on. FOr about two paragraphs the narrator describes the good life that Ralph had, and I think it's really important that we know this. In the beginning of the book I kind of thought that Ralph had been neglected, or did not appreciate his home life, from the way he reacted when he found out that there were no grownups on the island. But in these paragraphs it seems like Ralph had a great, fantastic experiance living at home. It was important to see this side of Ralph because we see the more vulnerable side to him. At first I did not understand why this was randomly coming up, but I think the narrator is trying to say that Ralph misses his home life.
I agree with you. I had the same thoughts since he didn't care that there was no adults and he wanted to have him led me to think life on the island for him was better than life at home. After I read this chapter I realized Ralph misses what he use to have and now he isn't saying there's no grown ups, who cares, let's have fun. Now he's taking on this grown up position that he didn't have to do before; everything is different for him. We definitely see a more caring, vulnerable side to him when he starts describing his life at home.
DeleteIt is important that the author starts Ralph's character of a certain way and once we get to this chapter his character changes. He starts to miss what he has and he certainly wishes he was at home. We see a shift and I think we should continue to focus on that as we go on with the book.
I think it is very important that this detailed vignette from Ralph's past only comes up in the story now. Previously in the book Ralph has been something of a force of calm, acting as both foil and antagonist to Jack, and in general he's been a pretty forward-looking character. This chapter marks a big change in personality for Ralph, something that is quite evident from the way he succumbs to the mob mentality during the hunt and after the fact, beating up Robert with all the others. Showing his moment's respite and recollection of what he had before sort of seems, to me at least, like a way for Golding to explain that Ralph too is shedding the last few layers of society from before the crash; the flashback is Ralph's way of simultaneously saying goodbye and paying homage to the life he is leaving behind.
Delete"'I hit him," said Ralph indignantly. 'I hit him with my spear, I wounded him'" (114).
ReplyDeleteEven though it is a short line it quickly grabbed my attention and I found it significant.
In this quote we see Ralph reflect or mirror how Jack was when he killed the pig. All Jack kept saying was how he killed the pig and all these details about the situation. Ralph seems to be doing the same now that he stabbed a pig. Even when Jack tries to get the attention away from Ralph and says all these other things, Ralph still goes on to say that he stabbed the pig. The author chooses to write the word indignant which means feeling or showing anger at was is percieved as unfair treatment. Ralph thought that Jack trying to drive this attention away from him was unfair and was annoyed with it just like when Jack was annoyed with how irrelevant Ralph's words were to him killing a pig. The author even says before that the attention went to Jack. I also feel like Ralph only went into the place of a hunter because Jack does it. He sees how the boys really go towards Jack because of it and Ralph feels like he needs to do it to get the same thing. Afterwords, Ralph ends up saying that maybe hunting isn't all that bad which shocked me a bit since he always argued w Jack because his mentality revolved around hunting and he didn't find the need for it. Makes me think that Ralph will soon turn out to be animalistic like Jack. It also makes me question Ralph's mentality.
I agree with you, I think this is showing a strive for attention in both Ralph and Jack. To be more specific, I think this could be showing early signs of a power struggle between the two characters. Also, I think the spear symbolizes a great deal of power, but because the boys were only able to hit the pig, I think it symbolizes the boys misusing their power. Do you think Jack and Ralph my switch positions of hunter and leader, or do you think they will begin to share responsibility?
DeleteI definitely agree with you, and how when Jack killed his first pig Ralph couldn't help but refer to how ignorant Jack was being about the whole thing and now he is basically acting the same way. I also agree with Fiona, when she mentions the power struggle between Jack and Ralph. In my eyes there has always been a power struggle between the boys, but mostly with Jack and Ralph.
Delete“By now, Ralph had no self-consciousness in public thinking but would treat the day’s decisions as though he were playing chess. The only trouble was that he would never be a very good chess player.” (117)
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me because chess players make very precise and smart decisions but it confused me because he had no self- consciousness, meaning he isn’t really awake or present in his surroundings. Obviously, chess players are awake and thinking, but recently Ralph has day dreamed a lot and he is the total opposite of a chess player. The society is unorganized and they are in need of someone who thinks like a chess player. Also, I find it very interesting how Golding says; “he would never be,” meaning that in the future Ralph would not be good at chess. I think Golding stating the sentence this way symbolizes the fact that the boys are only children and it is going to be hard to find a person that thinks precisely. Also, I think it means that the narrator experienced life on the island with Ralph and I think it’s a sign that the society is going to keep getting worse because Ralph was never able to be a smart leader.
I like the connections you draw from this quote. I felt that this quote was sort of misleading because it seems as though Ralph has been an excellent leader, the best the island could have offered. And while not a good chess player, he possesses many of the traits of one, such as patience, thinking strategically, and working well under pressure. Another thing, I do not think that that is what the author intended when he said that Ralph was no longer self-conscious, i think he just meant he was comfortable and confident leading and speaking as a leader.
DeleteI agree with Jake, the way Ralph was portrayed seemed to be the ideal leader, and although he occasionally panicked when faced with a difficult situation, he fulfilled his duties. I had a different take on why the author stated that part about how he 'would never' be good, I think it was intended to foreshadow his decline as a leader, or at least of how the rest fo the boys viewed him. Although you make a valid point that it is hard to find and ideal person, I do believe that it is possible for Ralph, and the other boys, to mature into quick-witted adults.
Delete“Now it was Ralph’s turn to flush but he spoke despairingly, out of the new understanding that Piggy had given him. Why do you hate me?” (118)
ReplyDeleteI chose this quote because it was finally, finally said. After all of Jack’s inappropriate, hateful, spiteful comments and remarks, someone has finally said something to him. Ralph did not say everything that needed to be said, like that Jack was a jerk, or that he was going crazy, he asked a simple and poised question, one that may have made more of an impact than anything else. I assume Jack is used to getting these types of remarks, but a sincere question from the closest thing he has to a companion on the island may have been just what he needed. Another thing I like about this quote is that I realized something. When I read “out of the new understanding that Piggy had given him” another thing became clear to me about the roles played in this book. Each character has a purpose to progress the plot, but Piggy plays that role the least, he is sort of part of the setting. He is used as a character to make comparisons, and move things into place, but never actually for action.
I think you phrased that perfectly! It wasn't like Ralph had to go into a big tirade and have a fight with Ralph. All he had to say were those simple words to really say something that needed to be said for a long time. However, I dont entirely agree with your theory about Piggy. I think he is used for the progress of the plot, just as much as the other boys, not just for the setting. Isn't the fact that Piggy was the oone that gave Ralph the idea in the first place adding to the plot, as well as himself as a character? Just because he isn't as vocal or action oriented as some of the other characters, he still supplies the group with most of the knowledge and is mostly the person that gives Ralph most of his ideas. Without him, I don't think there would be much of a plot - every good story needs some kind of scapegoat.
Delete"Ralph too was fighting to get near, to get a handful of that brown, vulnerable flesh. The desire to squeeze and hurt was over-mastering" p 115.
ReplyDeleteThis quote goes to show just how overpowering human being's desire to act like a savage is compared to acting civilized. Even Ralph, whom we all thought was the most civilized and sane of the group gave up to his animalistic instincts. He never quite understood the feeling that Jack got whenever he killed a Pig, but now that Ralph did as little as hit the pig in its snout, he is totally changed, if not worse than Jack. To think that they would even dare take one of their own group and act like a a bunch of canniabls, poking at him with sticks, pertending he was the pig, is sick. It is way more than just a game Jack promised it was. Next time, they want to do the same with the littluns, and with them, they may take this game just a little too far. Savagery seems contagious in this book and once it spreads to Ralph, we know that the boys are doomed. Who knows, maybe it will even hit Piggy next, although I highly doubt that he would ever get to that state.
I agree with you, but another way to look at it is not necessarily that it's animal instinct. Perhaps he's just losing his faith or hope to be rescued and this pig-killing, cruel game is the now. It's the way for them to cope with the situation just like his day dreams. I truly hope Ralph snaps out of this gruesome mindset.
DeleteI also agree. Savagery is completely contagious in this book. I never thought that Ralph would fall into it as he did. However, although Ralph did, I think it's highly unlikely that Piggy will ever become a savage. He doesn't go hunting, and he takes care of the littluns often. Another reason is his hatred for Jack after what he did to him. Maybe Piggy will be the boys next "victim" in their little game they play since he wont ever participate.
DeleteI found the passage after, or at the end of Ralph's day dream pretty interesting: "Everything was all right; everything was good humored and friendly" (112). This was at the very end of his day dream. At first glance I thought this was simply a dream due to his longing for home, but as I read on I couldn't be so sure. Ralph ends up being very excited about hunting, killing, stabbing. He never had been before. He found it vile. Earlier in the chapter he notices that the filth that covers everyone now has become a norm. Perhaps the island as a whole is becoming a norm for him, as it has for Jack and a few others. All Jack cares about is meat, while Ralph has always been the one to be rational. It scares me, but some of the careless, and cruel characteristics displayed by Jack are now showing in Ralph. What does this mean? Has he lost hope, or is this just him being so caught up in the island? His daydreams are no longer him just wishing he was home, but a substitute for the harsh reality he is living in. It almost seems like he's going crazy. What this says to me is humans a lot of the time live in the now. They work with what they have, and try to cope. Ralph still manages to show leadership, and urges to light the fire, but that mindset is slowly slipping away.
ReplyDeleteYes I agree. After I read the part about Ralph's participation in the violent 'game' with Robert it seemed that Ralph was completely going into Jacks mindset which is only driven by his want for meat and killing. I think that this is proven wrong though, because later in the chapter Ralph continues to be concerned about the fire on the mountain, meaning he still has faith in being rescued, or at least doing all they can in that respect.
Delete“You'll get back to where you came from” (111)
ReplyDeleteThe beginning of chapter 7 starts with Ralph doubting that they will ever get rescued. He’s feeling helpless and he’s losing hope because he’s on the other side of the island where it is nearly impossible to be rescued. Simon states, “You'll get back to where you came from” (111), and I found this quote really significant. Simon saying that to Ralph gives him reassurance and comfort. In addition, it shows how nice Simon really is. Simon acted like a savior by telling Ralph that he will be rescued, he read Ralph’s mind and then he protected Ralph from his own bad thoughts. I think Simon predicts this because he knows that Ralph has the ability to get himself rescued. Also, Simon knows that Ralph is smart and strong enough to escape the island. This quote foreshadows that Ralph will ultimately be rescued and that he will go back to where he came from. I wonder if this quote is foreshadowing that maybe Simon isn't going to make it back and that he’s going to die on the island.
Furthermore, I think that one can make the inference that Ralph is beginning to become doubtful and letting the island get the best of them. He starts to realize that he needs a shower, his hair is too long, needs to brush his teeth so on and so fourth. Ralph also joins in on the crazy hunting mindset which is another form of him changing.
DeleteI agree, I think Simon is like the person is who is the most logical thinker besides Piggy and is the one trying to keep the group together and thinking straight. Also, Simon has like a fatherly presence when he is helping the littler ones and talking with the other boys as you can see from the quote.
Delete"'I hit him," said Ralph indignantly. 'I hit him with my spear, I wounded him'" (114). I believe this quote demonstrates how Ralph is showing personality traits similar to Jack. After hitting the boar with his spear, and despite letting it get away, Ralph recaps how he struck the boar with pride. After seeing that he has somewhat captivated the boys attention, they form a chant and begin to tease Roger. Ralph, hesitating, joins in and pokes him with the bud of his spear. This is not what one would expect as natural behavior from Ralph, who is supposed to be the role model because he is the leader. I think that this hunting mind-set may influence Ralph to change, especially since he is on another expedition, at night, with two other boys. This has potential to change Ralph for better or worse.
ReplyDeleteI agree. I think Ralph already has these humanistic, savage attributes inside him. His inner savageness is beginning to show because of Jack and the other boys’ influence on him. I hope Ralph will fight the desire to hurt. After all, he is the chief and he cannot let anything go wrong, or else order on the island will collapse. Some questions that arose while reading the quote are: when exposed to savageness, do we all become savage? Will Ralph join Jack in hunting, or will he continue to maintain order on the island?
DeleteI agree with you wes, Ralph is defiantly on the verge of changing and he is letting this island and Jack get to his head. If he continues this, he will be exactly like Jack and he would want to hunt all the time and be the savage human beings are. This will also influence others to become like this and there will be no order, eventually resulting in the downfall of the group.
Delete"'I hit him,' said Ralph indignantly. 'I hit him with my spear, I wounded him.' He tried for their attention" (114).
ReplyDeleteThis quote in particular stood out to me because I would have never expected Ralph to act this way. Ralph has been leader and in the past hasn't really cared that people didn't really like him, he just wanted to get things done. He has also been the "adult" of the island as he makes rules and tries to restore order. However, here Ralph is desperately trying to get accepted into the group for what he has done. By doing this he brings himself from a leader to a follower and gives more power to the people he is trying to impress- Jacks gang of hunter. I also found it interesting that Jack doesn't really reward Ralph for his actions, rather points out that he failed to grab the pig. This shows how little Jack's respect for Ralph has become.
I agree, I do not understand why suddenly Ralph is trying to gain the hunters' respect. Is it possible that he senses unease amongst the older kids, they are beginning to side with Jack more than him? On page 91 Ralph shows exactly the opposite of this kind of behavior, and the kids listen to him. He tries to talk sense to them, he doesn't do things to get their attention and respect, he just tries to move the group forward. Piggy is calling out the hunters on their animal-like behavior and a fight breaks out, Ralph doesn't insult Piggy like the rest of the boys, he tells them to let Piggy talk. I don't know what changed from then to now, maybe the beast talk has taken its toll on Ralph or maybe he is just starting to give up.
Delete"The sow collapsed under them and they were heavy and fulfilled upon her. The butterflies still danced, preoccupied in the center of the clearing." (p.135)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stuck out to me because of how incredibly opposite they both are. One speaks of a gruesome death, and the other of a happy and joyous life. Combined, they create a strange scene, allowing the reader to look deeper into the true meaning of this odd pairing. I looked up what butterflies usually represent, and it came back with lost souls waiting to get into purgatory. I think this symbolism is meant to show that although a pig has just been murdered, there are still good and beautiful things in the world that will continue on. The butterflies show that the killing was for a greater good, and that every deed has a counter to balance it out.
I also think that this quote meant to show that they've become so savage that the collapse of a living organism is joyous to their crazy, deluded minds. They're going nuts with this blood lust that has claimed them. Why is it that this is so great to them? Is it that they feel the need to be the "Alpha male"?
Delete“For the first time since he had first known Jack, Ralph could feel him hesitate,” (122). This is when Jack hesitates after Ralph decides for them to go up the mountain and see the beast. I find it ironic how Jack is the one pressuring Ralph and Roger to go on their journey to the top of the mountain, but then Jack himself ends up fearful when realizing he actually has to face the beast. His hesitation reveals his human characteristic of fear. Beneath Jack’s rigorous hunting and brave words, he is scared of the unknown, just like everyone else. He is scared to see the beast because he does not know if he will be able to kill it, or if he will even be able to face it. Relating to human beings in general, we are all scared of the unknown, no matter how savage we can get and how brave we think we are. Jack only becomes scared once his savageness turns into reality. He does not back out of journeying to the mountain, until he is about to go up the mountain. This means Jack does things, but his thoughts are careless and not thought out. He should be more like Ralph, thinking rationally and understanding how reality works. What I’m trying to convey about Jack is that his own words are easier said than done.
ReplyDelete"The circle moved in and around. Robert squealed in mock terror, then in real pain." (114)
ReplyDeleteThe boys do this a lot, they have some one pretend to be their prey and then mock kill them. This time they go to far and actually hurt Robert, the kid who is pretending to be a boar. I don't understand this behavior, they all get really into it, pulling his hair, jabbing him with spears, and chanting. They all have this violent impulse and can't control it, maybe they have been on this island for so long that they are beginning to let their natural desires show. Usually, when you are at home with your parents and friends you can't let it be known what you actually want to do at that moment, it doesn't fit social conventions, it would be weird and gross, and people would make fun of you. Here on the island no one is judging, no one is there to say what is normal and what is irregular. The boys can show who they truly are and within that, they show what they truly want.
I agree this time they took it a bit too far, and it in a way shows their true color. This time they only hurt robert, but next time who knows they can actually so far as too kill their pretend prey. I agree the lack of parental control really affects who they are becoming and they are getting away with what they do.
Delete"He would like to have a pair of scissors and cut his hair...a bath, a proper wallow with soap...a tooth brush."
ReplyDeleteHere Ralph notices and very briefly thinks about the life he had, and later in the chapter we get a small insight of what his old life used to be like. He talks about how these small things were not that important until now. In a way it gives us information about ralph's personality, because there is no one around to judge him, yet he is very concerned with his physical appearance. He misses being well groomed and clean, unlike the rest of the group he misses these small details. Much like in today's society no one wants to be the smelly and hobo looking person no goes near.
I don't really think that Ralph is that concerned with his looks. I think that he wants these thing to feel more comfortable. Like he is back at home again. i mean sure, maybe looks are important to him because he is the "leader" of the group and leaders usually look on point and not crappy. But its these things like a tooth brush, a bath, a pair of scissors, etc to make him feel like he's back at home any everything in fine and to "lie" to himself that he is not stuck in an abandon island with kids that don't know what they are doing.
DeleteAfter closing in on, and hurting Robert, Jack comments '"That was a good game." "Just a game," said Ralph uneasily. "I got jolly badly hurt at rugger once"'(115). I think it is remarkable that Ralph compares this game of taunting and hurting Robert to a game of rugby. By his uneasy tone it seems that Ralph is trying to reassure himself that this violent game they were playing was alright, and not wrong in any way. He says that he was hurt once in a game of rugby, just like Robert was hurt in this game. I think Ralph is kind of amazed at the adrenaline and animal instinct that took him over in this 'game' and is giving himself an excuse so as not to feel guilty. At the same time I feel as though Ralph's uneasiness and comment about his injury could be just to fit in with the other boys. He participated in this circle of violence and terrorized Robert, but seems to be the only one who feels any regret. This comment making the event that just occurred seem commonplace helps him to blend in with the other boys who don't feel uncomfortable about the situation, and reflects the peer pressure of the boys on the island.
ReplyDeleteAlso, another thing that was really remarkable was that even after this violent game, Robert chooses to go with Ralph and Jack in search of the beast. Why? Does he do this to show his loyalty? Isn't he afraid to be alone with them??
DeleteThis chapter was really gut-wrenching to read because it showed the magnitude of the changes in the characters. In the beginning Ralph was trying to keep everyone civil, but now "Ralph too was fighting to get near, to get a handful of that brown, vulnerable flesh. The desire to squeeze and hurt was over-mastering," (106). The boys have become so vicious that they forget they are hurting a person. Robert is screaming in real pain, not pretend pain. He is nearly killed, however the boys seem to forget what they did almost immediately. This chapter signifies the turning point I think mostly with Ralph. He is becoming a savage like the rest of the boys minus Piggy. I think now that Ralph has become savage there will be no one-who the boys listen to-to keep order. Now that Piggy is the only one not involved in the hunting and savage danger I think he will be in danger just like Robert was. Now that Ralph has changed the behavior of the rest of the boys will change for the worst.
ReplyDeleteThe progression of time has brought numerous changes to the well-being of the group. It became very evident earlier in the story where everyone would change to the savage like animal Jack has become. I believe that this is the moment for Ralph. Although Ralph unlike many others seemed to have dealt with his fear very well, this shows how devastating the fear of the beast has been. The question is why are they so afraid? It could truly be anything but it also might be the contrast between the security they were granted in their formers lives and the security they receive now.
DeleteI agree with you! Ralph has become savage and I think this is a turning point in the book because it shows how all the character have become less civilized and more savage. Also, another character who is still civilized besides Piggy is Simon, he's still caring and nice like he always was. What do you think Ralph becoming less civilized and more savage symbolizes?
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ReplyDeleteThe vivid and compelling imagery in this chapter explained so much about the true character of the boys beginning to show through. One of the most telling examples is when Golding describes "a stain in the darkness, a stain that was Jack, [that] detatched itself and began to draw away." To have a stain that is visible in darkness is obviously something very deep and noir; describing Jack as such a stain is beginning to explain how twisted and darkened he himself has become during his transformation from a supposedly repressed choir head to the maniacal killing machine he touts himself to be. He is a noticably dark force now, and the fact that he "detached himself and began to draw away" simply attests to the fact that he is far gone, beyond the reach of the other boys on the island. While Ralph holds the power in title, it is obvious to see that the real power is slipping and shifting as the other boys begin to heed the dark entity that Jack has become. At this point, for the admittedly still immature and impressionable boys on the island, choosing between the rule of Ralph and that of Jack must seem like the fabled and direly consequenced, not to mention romantic and secretly sought-after, battle bewteen good and evil.
ReplyDelete"By now, Ralph had no self-consciousness in public thinking but would treat the day's decisions as though he were playing chess. The only trouble was that he would never be a very good chess player." (117) This quote stuck out to me because it not only exposes the progress of time for these children on the island but more importantly it shows the lack of confidence Ralph has in his leadership abilities. Ralph compares the role of leadership to a game of chess, which is in many ways very right but also in many ways the wrong approach to a very delicate community. Ralph understands the fact that he has never truly been the sole of leader of the group and he has been trading moves with Jack since the first day they dropped in on the island, hence the idea of a chess game, a battle for kings. He sees the group as his pawns and he needs to use them in such a way he has a greater advantage to attack Jack and protect himself. All of these ideas are very natural in a community where leadership provides an ability to dictate all decisions, a position of absolute authority. Although if he thought of his decision making as a more in the moment idea he may be able to put the group in a better place. In chess, players tend to think many moves ahead, something that can come in handy but if the other player makes an unexpected decision their opposition is forced to scramble and only the most experienced players know how to get out of it. Obviously, Ralph is not a seasoned leader and therefore needs to find a way to protect the group on a more in the moment basis.
ReplyDeleteThroughout the this last chapter, it is evident to see the boys are becoming to be more like savages – they have definitely gone through a major change from when they first came onto the island up until now, though it was obvious that a change would come, and such a savage like change such as this one, it still came as a shock to me. Not only was this change in this chapter surprising to me, but the amount of violence was pretty shocking as well. When the boys are racing to get a pig, they start chanting, “Kill the pig! Cut his throat! Kill the pig! Bash him in!” (pg.114) When I read this I didn’t think too much of it, but looking back and actually analyzing what they were chanting, I know see how violent the words are. When the boys are all running, “Ralph was too fighting to get near, to get a handful of that brown, vulnerable flesh. The desire to squeeze and hurt was over-mastering.” (pg. 115) Up until now, I have really viewed Ralph as the savage like, but now my perspective has changed. Before it was Ralph, Piggy and Simon – the three blind mice – not only were they the most civilized out the group of boys, but they were also the most in favor of an ordered society and now we are starting to see this new side of Ralph, the more savage like side. I don’t becoming a savage was a choice Ralph made I don’t think it was a choice any of the boys made, I think it was more of their way of adapting to the island – or it was the only the boys felt they should adapt.
ReplyDelete“One might dream of rescue; but here, faced by the brute obtuseness of the ocean…one was clamped down, one was helpless, one was condemned” (111).
ReplyDeleteGolding is implying to the reader that the kids on the island will not be rescued anytime soon. The ocean is too big, too wide and the adults have other things to worry about such as war. And since its only kids that are stuck on this island, they are “helpless” because there is no adult there to help them and guide them. Golding uses words like “clamped”, “helpless”, and “condemned” to express that things are not going to go well as the kids had originally planned. There might be kids getting hurt and maybe even dying because of survival.
"Ralphed talked on, excitedly. 'I hit him all right. The spear stuck in. I wounded him!' He sunned himself in their new respect and felt that hunting was good after all" (128).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because I was surprised that Ralph would be thinking with the savage mentality of a person like Jack. After reading this line I got a new perspective of the differences and the relationship between Jack and Ralph. Jack is naturally arrogant and has a mean streak, whereas Ralph is a more reasonable and friendly person. What this quote showed me is that everybody, even Ralph has a savage side. I think that Golding described Ralph as sunning himself in the boys' new respect in order to illustrate that humans have a natural tendency towards arrogance and violence. Ralph decides that "hunting was good after all," simply because he realizes that he might be good at it and that it earns him respect. This situation made me think that Golding must believe that humans in their natural state are cruel and savage, because even the most balanced of characters seems to be turning to the dark side. Maybe Jack is supposed to represent humans in their natural state because, unlike Ralph, his character has gone through no changes and he has stayed true to himself.
I agree with what you said about human nature being violent an cruel, but I also think that maybe Golding is saying something about how the way kids are raised largely effects who they are as an adult. When he brings up Ralph's past, and makes Ralph seem homesick a few times, it points out to me that perhaps, although human nature is to be savage, our upbringing can really change that. Ralph's childhood seemed fun and peaceful, so perhaps that is one of the reasons he is a more kind and less-violent leader than Jack.
Delete"Ralph...was fighting to get near....The desire to squeeze and hurt was over-mastering." Chapter 7, pg. 104
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it progresses the transformation that the boys are making. Ralph was always known to be the sane one, who kept his wits. Although, throughout this chapter, he's gotten further and further from that sanity. I think ralph is symbolic for the hope that the boys maintain throughout the story. He always believed that there was hope of rescue, and when the dead parachuter fell onto the island, it was a very powerful symbol for the lack of hope and possible communication with the adult world.
"By now, Ralph had no self-consciousness in public thinking but would treat the day's decisions as though he were playing chess"(132).
ReplyDeleteThis is another sign of the differences between Piggy, Jack and Ralph as leaders and their social approach to certain situations. Ralph explains Piggy as the more straightforward and vivid thinking individual out of everyone on the island. On the other hand, Jack is a survivor and his fear of the unknown (the beast and whether they're going to get home) is forcing him to use aggression to show his dominance. Ralph is somewhere in between these two characters, not to smart but it's enough for the littluns, not to focus on hunting but knows how to navigate around the island well enough to tag along. Then Simon is kind of like Ralph's mentor,"I just think you'll get back all right" (126) and he does this to give Ralph the confidence he needs to get them home. I find it amazing that this small social system that has been formed, embodies the world we live in now. We're all divided into separate factions based on certain abilities, but dumped into the world as a whole with no official guidelines.
"Ralph too was fighting...The desire to squeeze and hurt was over-mastering." Page 159
ReplyDeleteI thought that this quote was significant because it highlights something that Golding is saying about human nature. He seems to be of the opinion that man is, at heart, a savage creature who is inclined to harm and kill others so that they may boost their own ego and secure their spot in the hierarchy of the world. This tendency that man has, to make others suffer for the pleasure of feeling poweful, is most easily allowed to surface in man when he is exempt from the will of a powerful leader who truly knows right from wrong, which used to be Ralph, in our story. However, it seems Ralph himself cannot keep from getting sucked into the world of the hunters--and on top of that, he is now desperatey seeking recognition from other members of he group (mentioning several times that he had hit the boar with a spear). This may be a sign that Ralph is letting himself slip from the standards he once held for himself, and may be on his way to a critical downfall.
"They got his arms and legs. Ralph, carried away by a sudden thick excitement, grabbed Eric's spear and jabbed at Robert with it.
ReplyDeleteKill him! Kill Him! (114)"
Today's reading was quite interesting and i started to notice how the island is starting to change the people, who i never thought would change in the beginning of the book. For example Ralph as in the quote i have written on the top seemed to have a emotion rush. He got really carried away with a game that could have seriously resulted in really hurting or even killing Robert. Ralph i believe is peer pressured into coming hunting with the boys and it becomes to much for him to handle. He got carried away with excitement and at points if this continues he will not be any different from Jack. If this happens there will be no leader and he will be just as violent as Jack and what if he goes through this phase again, will he be able to get back to his senses? This will result as a negative impact on the group!
"He passed his tongue experimentally over his teeth and decided that a tooth brush would come in handy too." (109)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it really shows how Ralph is starting to miss i guess his normal life. I think he is starting to see that he took the little things that he did everyday for granted and now he is seeing that he really misses the simple things in life. i think he is missing the social norm, I guess to be well presented because he wasn't thinking about getting a hair cut or brushing his teeth earlier in the book.
I get what you're saying here and i agree. Everyone on this island is brining to learn so called "lessons" of how they should have been acting in the past. This island is maturing them without them realizing that. But also most of the characters have raggedy clothes and they probably have bad hygiene which makes them realize they need to take care of themselves because there aren't much resources on the island.
Delete"They got his arms and legs. Ralph, carried away by the sudden thick excitement, grabbed Eric's spear and jabbed at Robert with it."(114)
ReplyDeleteThis line frightened me, but at the same time I could see these emotions become more prevalent in Ralph as the story progressed. Ralph has a duty to stay a calm, cool, and collected leader, and to try to maintain order. But at the same time, the emotions that are gripping everyone are also getting to him too. A mixture of the frustration and aggravation of the pressures to lead, and an overall anger are causing him to act so violently. He feels like he's been deprived of everything and is losing even his basic human characteristics. He is turning into the savage that he swore he wouldn't become (unlike Jack) and he can't even tell that this is the wrong path because he's so delusional.
I agree, this line also scared me too. In this line we could see that Ralph as a person changed his character completely. Also, I feel that Ralph is not demonstrating the skills of being a leader but more as a follower. Ralph is following into Jack's footsteps of being more cruel and showing characteristics of malice. I really liked your observation on how his emotions lead him to act violently. But, my question is this just the rush of emotions that Ralph portrayed was just a onetime thing or, is it him developing into a more powerful version of Jack? And, how this change in character will negatively impact the group?
Delete“By now Ralph had no self consciousness in public thinking but treat the day’s decisions as though he were playing chess. The only trouble was that he would never be a good chess player.”(117) This quote stood out to me because, we could see Ralph’s confidence as being a leader beginning to decrease. And he is not only demonstrating this through his words but, his actions, which leads the narrator to describe Ralph decisions as a chess game. Chess is a common board game which involves using strategy and skill, and you’re in a constant state of improving so it will be towards your advantage. The narrator is trying to stay that the boys have been stranded in the island for months and Ralph leadership skills have gotten worse over the period of time. Ralph does not have a clear plan on how to get rescued from the island beside of starting a fire and use the signal as smoke. He is not using his knowledge or he not demonstrating the skills that he is capable from getting rescued, because he have no new ideas or ways to improve his smoke signaling strategy.”Therefore, the narrator describes him as a “bad chess player” for not making fast decisions and for not putting the effort as a leader to help the boy’s to escape the island.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that Ralph has become a corrupt leader and his skills have gotten worse in our eyes. Do you think that he was a good leader from the begin though. In the beginning he was not showing leadership characteristics, by being unfair to the other children, and by not accomplishing anything. If you think about he isn't a good leader because he hasn't done anything to the best of his ability. I feel that somethings gotten worse but not his leadership qualities because there were none from the beginning of the book
Delete"Robert squealed in mock terror, then in real pain" (114)
ReplyDeleteI feel that this quote really summarizes the change the boys experienced. This quote shows how crazy and uncivilized the boys can get. In this part of the chapter the boys are playing around after the come back from hunting. The interesting thing is that Ralph came with Jack to hunt. When they come back from hunting, the reenact the killing of a pig and joke around using a kid named Robert. They begin by surrounding him and then attacking him. Then this quote explains that first we was kidding around, then it became real pain. This shows how the boys first started as playful children on an island lounging around, and developed into blood seeking hunters. This also relates back to the theme of dystopia.
Nice understanding of this chapter! I would also state that to shows how the boys in this state of savagery. They can easily turn on it each other. Each man it for them selves and this is what should scare them the most.
Delete"' I hit him', said Ralph indignantly. 'I hit him with my spear, I wounded him'. He tried for their attention"(114)
ReplyDeleteI found this quote interesting because it reminded me of the time that Jack wanted to let everyone know that he finally killed a pig, now Ralph is doing the same as Jack trying let people know that he hit the pig no one else, he did it himself. I think that the more everyone on this island is trying to survive this brutal/tough situation, everyone is turning savage in their own ways. First Jack was going crazy about him focusing on killing this pig, and Ralph is going through the same footsteps as Jack and isn't realizing that he should be acting like a leader. To be a leader, he has to be the toughest and not need to gain attention. I do feel as if there is still tension between Jack and Ralph and their competition towards leader.
I agree, I think Ralph wants people to keep their trust in him. He wants to keep the power that he has gained, and he knows how important killing pigs are in the society he has made, which is why he is so proud of his actions. He also wants to be recognized as a brave person, not just a leader. I think he wants to lead by example because if he shows the others that he is able to accomplish something, they will be able to as well, and then make the society stronger as a whole.
DeleteI agree with you because the boys are definitely transforming into a violent group. Ralph at first, was the one who continued to get mad at Jack every time he spoke about killing the pig instead of helping out with building the huts, watching the fire, or caring about being rescued. But now, he joined the group's desire to kill and hunt. I think that Ralph was getting so frustrated as leader and letting this island and the boys get to him that now is savage side is starting to show.
Delete"All the same. You'll get back all right. I think so, anyway." (111)
ReplyDeleteSimon is recognizing that Ralph is nervous about getting home. Ralph has become very homesick over the past few days. He is realizing that all of the luxuries, what he thought were necessities, are not going to be easy for him to access. I think that this is when he truly realizes that he has to start a new life. He no longer has soap to bathe with, and no longer has easy access to begin clean as he used to. I think this also has something to do with the independence he is gaining from this experience. He is not ready to have all the responsibility that he somehow acquired, however he knows that he needs to stick with it.
"Or someone to pretend. You could get someone to dress up as a pig..." (Jack)
ReplyDelete"You want a real pig because you've got to kill him" (Robert)
"Use a Littlun," said jack, and everybody laughed. (Page 115)
These lines stood out to me because it shows the transformations that these young boys are making. It is expected for Jack to say something like this but for everyone to laugh as if they agree to the possibility, is just shocking. I'm not sure why Jack decided to choose the littluns, maybe because they're younger than him but it seems as if their lives aren't as important as his just because he's older and capable of more. Jack and the boys nearly killed Robert when he pretended to be the boar and they suddenly forgot they were just playing a game. What is horrifying about what Jack said is not the actual idea but the thought of Jack actually killing a littlun because he would really do it. If Jack had the choice to kill a littlun, I think he'd actually do it and probably wouldn't feel bad.
"Ralph...was fighting to get near....The desire to squeeze and hurt was over-mastering."
ReplyDeleteAs Ralph goes hunting with the boys he experiences for the first time how it feel to want to kill something and hunt. He has a new view on this island on how to survive. In this chalter Ralph is conflicted by two sperums of how to survive and live on the island.