Post your reader responses here: Choose a line or two from Chapter 1 and explain why it stands out to you. Does this line shock you, confuse you, or seem important in some way? Does it make you ask a question? Can you make a connection to your life or another text? Does the language stand out to you for some reason? What is this line saying about the characters in the novel and about people or the world, in general?
Then, respond to a classmate's post. Agree or disagree, but make sure that you add something new-- a new idea, a reference to another part of the book. Include textual evidence as you push the conversation forward. Ask more questions to keep the dialogue going...and remember-- this assignment is all about thinking/analysis.
"My father's in the Navy. He said there aren;t any unknown islands left. He saus the Queen has a big room full of maps and all the islands in the world are drawn there. So the Queen;s got a picture of this island...And sooner or later a ship will put in here. It might even be Daddy's ship. So you see, sooner or later, we shall be rescued"(37). While reading this quote, I realized how Ralph was different than the others among him, what granted him authority to be the leader. This quote is interesting for two reasons, one it displays confidence, leadership, and optimism; yet at the same time displays ignorance and child-like thoughts. It is optimistic because Ralph assures everyone that they will all be saved, he assures them so with some form of evidence, which allows him to be the leader. He gives everyone orders and promises. At the same time however, he states something his father had told him, a story that yes most likely true, that the Queen has a map with all the land on it-yet he tells it in a way that school children would at recess while bragging on whose father is the most interesting. This quote almost contradicts itself in a way that it radiates promise and authority yet displays the words of a young boy.
ReplyDeleteI totallly agree! I think this quote really captures the essence of what Ralph represents, as he is still a leader, since people come to him for reassurance and answers, but he is still just a boy, and no matter how hard he might try to come up with answers, he still has no way of knowing he is right. This can also be represented on p. 37, when Ralph cannot stand that people says there is a beastie, when Ralph "knows" that there isn't one. He gets pretty defensive whenever people try and question him, especially when Piggy unintentionally challenges his authority. I also think that part of the reason why Ralph is like this in the first place, can be because of his Father's military background. He probably always pushed Ralph to be a leader and to always be mature, maybe he was even punished for being wrong at times, hence his need to be right.
Delete"We've got to have rules and obey them. After all, we're not savages. We're English, and the English are best at everything." (42)
ReplyDeleteThis quote is really significant because not only does it tell the reader where the characters are from, it also gives us a better understanding of Jack. While I was reading this quote I realized that Jack is a nationalist and he, indeed, has a lot of pride in where he is from. According to Jack, English people are best at everything and this portrays that Jack thinks he’s best at everything since he’s English, which shows that he’s really cocky. Jacks says that they are not “savages” meaning that they are not cruel, however, I feel like this is a foreshadowing in how Jack might be in the future since he has so much authority over the choir. In the future, he might enforce rules that are cruel to the members of the choir but from his perspective his rules might seem fair. I think this can possibly occur later on in the book. Additionally, this book was written in 1954 so basically this quote reflects the way English people were portrayed back then.
Nice, I agree and found this connects to my post as well. When I came across this in the story I had the same thoughts and thought that saying something like this is somewhat foolish to say, something you may hear from a child(as well as a very proud citizen) and thought that it was interesting how the leader of all the boys on a stranded island would display this. However, it adds on to his role as leader because if all the boys are english, he is pushing them forwards to word harder and strive for excellence since after all they are"...English and the English are the best at everything"(42).
Delete“There aren’t any grownups. We shall have to look after ourselves” (pg 33).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stuck out to me right away at the beginning of Chapter 2. Ralph had noticed that there aren’t any adults on the island and because of that, they are going to have to take care of themselves. I realized that these young schoolboys are going to have to take on the role of the adult. I say this because Ralph told the group that “we need hunters to get us meat” (pg 33) and “we can’t have everyone talking at once. We’ll have to have ‘Hands up’ like at school” (pg 33). In a situation like this, the adults would have discussed among themselves who would go hunting for food and they would be the ones to tell the kids to talk one at a time or else no one would be heard. But in this circumstance, the boys have to take it upon themselves to make rules and act grown. By taking on this role, Ralph and the other boys are stepping away from being a child, and towards being a mature adult.
I agree with what you are saying. Its like the kids are "losing" their innocence and they have to step up in order to survive. The kids will defiantly have some type of struggles living together on the island because in the end, they are still kids and they still need real adults to help guild them and tell them what to do.
DeleteI agree with you because the have to act like adults at a younger age and under unusual circumstances. Its highly unlikely for a group of kids to be left stranded on an island, and the fact that that they acting maturely and taking care of what they need to do is a big step. The fact that they have organized themselves and tried to set up some rules are great first steps. However, I not completely convinced that they are completing devoted to become mature young adults because even with everything going on they bully Piggy.
Delete"The first thing we ought to have made was shelters down there by the beach. It wasn't half cold down there in the night. But the first time Ralph says fire you goes howling and screaming up this hear mountain. Like a pack of kids." - Piggy (45)
ReplyDeleteThis quote reminded me a lot of what we were talking about in class today, concerning the boys' appearances and power struggles going on. Although it seems to me that Piggy is the one who is the most intelligent and has the best ideas in the group, no one listens to him because of the way he looks. When people see Ralph, he naturally asserts leadership and power. He is tall, handsom, strong and people enjoy listening to him, whereas Piggy is fat, wears specks, has trouble breathing and isn't very charismatic. Even if I do agree with a lot of what Piggy has to say and I do feel bad for him, since the group is trying to exclude him whenever he says something, it comes out more as an annoyance than something actually worth listening to. It seems as if he has a bit of a whining voice and tends to say things screaming them out. I am glad he was still able to stick up for himself and wasn't as intimidated by the boys as I expected him to be. It actually seemed like Ralph was a lot more intimidated by Piggy, than Pigy was intimidated by him, since he actually said things that proved Ralph to be not that great of a leader. He even tried to defend Ralph, which I thought was pretty shocking considering how rude he has been to him. He really is looking out for the group as a whole and I do think that they will have better chances of survival and keeping their sanity if they listen to Piggy, even if he probably won't be able to hunt a pig!
I agree with you completely. Piggy is by far the most intelligent member of the group, however, he is constantly singled out of the group. Do you think that the boys will realize this and side more with Piggy in the future, or will they side with the more confidant strong Ralph? Will Ralph keep Piggy near him to get good ideas and take credit as he has, or will he cut him off completely?
DeleteI agree with you and I think its really interesting that you pointed out that Ralph is more intimidated by Piggy then Piggy was of him. I think this is because Ralph realizes that he is nothing without Piggy. Ralph gets all his ideas from Piggy and whenever he is stuck in a situation Piggy bails him out. I think this one of the reasons Ralph is a good leader because he might not have all the answers but he is shrewd enough to hear other peoples answers and take them for his own.
Delete“Jack pointed suddenly. ‘His specs- use them as burning glasses!’ Piggy was surrounded before he could back away. ‘Here- let me go!” His voice shrieked out of terror as Jack snatched the glasses off his face. ‘Mind out! Give ‘em back! I can hardly see! You’ll break the conch!” (40)
ReplyDeleteThis quote in particular stood out to me because it was one of the first signs of violence and anarchy raised by the boys. Before this scene, the boys were making rules and had a leader, however, once something is needed, they break out into a frenzy instead of keeping calm and asking Piggy for his glasses. It’s only the first day and the boys are already showing signs of anarchy and madness, can this “order” they are barely maintaining stand? Not only did this quote show the groups future, but it also brought in a material that shows power: glasses. The conch can gather everyone and holds the power to decide who gets to speak, the knife can offer food and protection, and the glasses can provide heat and can hail in a passing ship. However, although Piggy owns this powerful tool, he is still belittled in the group, and doesn’t receive respect. Unless Piggy can show a little bit of more power and can claim himself as a vital member of the group, I predict that he will be pushed out and his power (glasses) will be stripped from him.
I agree – this is one of the first signs of anarchy. It is hypocritical of the boys to all agree on respecting the conch, but when Piggy has it, no one respects him. Jack tells Piggy, “The conch doesn’t count on top of the mountain…so you shut up,” (42). Jack should not be creating rules whenever he feels like it. This reveals how order is slipping away, and it is unfair to those who follow order. It is inevitable for rules to fall apart, as this is a part of human nature. People tend to lose sight of respecting peers and rules; they start to do things they simply want to do for their own benefit. Do we all have this savagery etched into ourselves? It is a frightening thought.
Delete“He felt himself facing something ungraspable.” (37) This quote reveals Ralph’s reaction to something he has never encountered before: the possibility of a “beastie”, or a snake. Although he denies its existence, Ralph feels as though this idea is something he cannot control himself. The thought of a snake on the island symbolizes dangers in general, dangers that will be irresistible. Ralph may be confident in having everyone listen to him for now, but will it play through until the end? There will definitely be violence, especially from Jack. We can tell because he is the one with the harsh ideas. Jack is the one who will not show mercy the next time he gets a chance to kill (a pig). Golding has a reason in choosing Jack to be the one telling everyone to follow him when starting the fire. This foreshadows Jack’s rise to power. Like a snake, it is something Ralph will not be able to control. Furthermore, Ralph does not have a clue whether or not Jack will be harmful because of their growing friendship. Will Ralph’s rules be inevitably broken, or will he have a way of maintaining order on the island?
ReplyDeleteI agree with what you are saying, and I also think it connects to the fact they they are just children. Sometimes while reading, i forget that they are just children, then Golding hints at things that make them more innocent than adults, which brings me back to the fact that they are all just about 12 years old. I don't think that Ralph's rule will be fully broken, i think that he may loose some "followers" but I think it might just become Jack and Ralph (and maybe even Piggy) ruling or making order over the boys. I think it is amazing that they were able to make order in the first place because imagine being in their situation, personally I would be panicked and probably not want to listen to others, while trying to figure out things for myself. Jack and Ralph want power so bad that I think Jack, because he is not in the "lead", will do anything to prove him self.
Delete"Piggy took off his glasses and blinked at the assembly while he wiped them on his shirt, 'You're hindering Ralph. You're not letting him get to the most important thing' ........ 'Nobody knows where we are'" 33-34
ReplyDeletePiggy is a hidden leader, he has the intelligence to become a leader, however he is not quite confident enough (taking off glasses and blinking at assembly-- can't see them as well, maybe stage fright) and not everyone treats him with the respect he deserves. Piggy is looking at the being on an uninhabited island conflict as a reality. He is thinking of all possible outcomes, and not very hopeful to the fact that someone knows that they are there. Ralph on the other hand is an idealist in some ways. He is very hopeful that someone, most likely his father will come and find them. Ralph is not thinking of the bad outcomes , only the good. Ralph is more caught up in being the leader and keeping the power than taking action. Although he does take action when he goes to light the fire and look around the island, but the only way the fire could help them is if people are close, and they were not planning on staying on the island for a while. Another thing I thought was interesting was the fact that the only animal they mention being on the island is a pig. I thought that that could have something to do with Piggy, the only (maybe not only) animal that is able to survive on the island is a pig, and then this might go on to symbolize the fact that the only one who could lead the boys to survival on the island is Piggy.
I agree with you, Arianna! I feel like Piggy would be a great leader if he was more confident, and I also agree that Ralph is an optimist, he believes everything good will occur. Do you think later on in the book Piggy will become more confident? Will Ralph still have a positive attitude? Wow, While I was reading the pig part in the chapter I didn't realize that the pig could have been symbolizing Piggy. Now I see the connection between both of them.
DeleteI totally agree with you! I actually never thought of Piggy as a leader, but now I can really see what you're saying! I think that Piggy is not able to see himself that he is a leader, maybe it is also a confidence issue, but I don't think that he has discovered his leadership yet. Do you think that the boys feel threatened by Piggy's intelligence and smart ideas leading them to make fun of him? Also, referring to Ralph being hopeful, do you think he is sort of taking this as a joke? I see him thinking that this situation won't last long and that it's all very simple. I agree with your idea, I never thought of this about Piggy or Ralph before!
DeleteI agree with you, Ralph is more caught up in being the leader and having no adults around versus Piggy that knows there is nothing good about being stuck on an island. Piggy is by far the person that knows what is actually going on and what they need to do yet the others don't even give Piggy a chance to try and help just because he is an easy target. Ralph is the idealist that looks at this situation as a game, where things are toys and fun. Piggy is the realist that looks at the situation as reality and in need of attention to see what is actually going on
Delete"Jack dragged his eyes away from the fire. 'You're always scared. Yah-Fatty!' 'I got the conch,' said Piggy bleakly. He turned to Ralph. 'I got the conch, ain't I Ralph?"' (45)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because in my last blog post I wrote about a power struggle, and again in this quote I feel like the author is showing signs of an early power struggle. Also, the post a commented on in chapter one by Jaad, described the conch symbolizing a source of power. I agreed and I predicted that the conch would appear throughout the book. Not only does this quote show Jack and Ralph both as conflicting sources of power, but it also shows me that the boys have to fight for power. The conch was put in place to keep them organized in talking with each other, this shows me that each of the boys has a very little amount of power, and also that they do not really respect each other. Although the conch may not help them respect each other, it will help them organize their thoughts and listen to each other better, keeping their tiny society in tact. I think this also shows a small division among the boys because Piggy asks for help from Ralph while Jack insults him. I also don't think that Jack is for the idea of the conch because he feels that it gives more power to Ralph. The conch gives more power to Jack because he found the conch bringing everyone together and he also thought of this idea in order to keep the boys organize, I think this makes him very respected among the boys.
I think your right about the conch being a source of power, and you're definitely right about there being a respect issue between the boys. Obviously Piggy is much less respected than Ralph or Jack, but why? Because he's fat, has glasses and has asthma? It's sad, but true, especially since he is by far one of the more intelligent characters. What does this say about the spread of power in a government? How should the power be distributed so that the greater good can be achieved? The conch idea was good, but as we see it's not necessarily holding up. If Ralph were to start over setting up this form of order, I wonder what could he do to make it more stable?
DeleteThis quote and more generally the spreading of the fire is what took my interest in this chapter: The flames, as though they were a kind of wild life, crept as a jaguar creeps on its belly toward..." (44). The author compares the flames to wild life. Wild life is wild, meaning non-domesticated, meaning the flames are spreading without control. I think the fire is a symbol for the little form of government order the boys have made themselves. They started out controlling the fire, understanding how to make it, and how to make it bigger. Without thinking things through, they ended up burning half the forrest down. Similarly, we see the order Ralph created with the conch is slowly diminishing, and slowly the boys are slipping from his control. The boys just ran off chaotically when they heard the word "fire". Now what does this say about governance in general and what Ralph, the leader, did wrong? Piggy pointed it out. They didn't think things through, and in Ralph's case it's understandable for he is only 12 years old, but in our current day societies, thinking things through is a way to prevent chaos. What "thinking things through" means is quite obviously thinking of all the possible regulations and rules you can make that would help prevent chaos, but still maintain fairness. This, as displayed in the book, is hard and cannot always be accomplished. We are not all fore-thinkers like Piggy. I wonder what that says about human nature and governance in general. Do most people lean towards a chaotic/anarchic world? Or do most people encourage order like Piggy? Of course they are just children, but I think there is a parallel.
ReplyDeleteI feel like the flames also bring this since of freedom, and makes the children that more intrigued by the fire. They can kind of relate to the fire as growing society, unorganized but still in control. This goes back to what I've mentioned in my post about using familiar sources to find you're way through struggles. Also, I totally agree with what you said about Ralph too, but don't you think he has been trying to think things through. Piggy even said that the kids weren't giving Ralph time to think in the beginning when they leave to make the fire. Although, Piggy sounds like this significant thinker compared to these other kids, he's also a kid and it shows through his sensitivity. Ralph is more of a survivor, and his confidence and physical abilities make him an all around leader. So, do you think that Piggy is a better leader than Ralph because he's smarter, because I feel like if Piggy was the better leader he would be it.
Delete"Once more, amid the breeze, the shouting, the slanting sunlight on the high mountain, was shed the glamour, that strange invisible light of friendship, adventure, and content."(40).
ReplyDeleteThis quote spoke to me because it shows that even though these kids are becoming more independent and trying to survive on this island, this unfortunate event still brings them an innocent happiness. It's almost amusing because it reminds you of when you use to play with toys as a kid and imagine all of these bizarre creative situations, but how their was always a positive ending. The shouting shows the idealistic features of the description, but then William Goldberg points out the way that the sunlight is shining, giving us a since of comfort. He also brings this quality while introducing us to the paradox of civil v.s. savage, during their meeting in the beginning of the chapter. To comfort the kids Ralph says, "this is a good island. We- Jack, Simon and me- we climber the mountain. It's wizard. There's food and drink, and- rocks- blue flowers..."(34). This quote shows again the need for comfort in a society of savages. Ralph truly embodies the meaning of a leader by convincing these kids that this island is almost a paradise. Making it sound better than there homes. Making them feel a since of freedom and pleasure, but knowing that this isn't true, Ralph continues to focus all of his energy on getting away.
I agree, I think that in this element, alone on an island, these children's true selves come out and for many of them, they are very selfish. They are all acting for their own good and do not want to share unless someone presents them with a reason to share. In many ways I agree that these are like little kids playing with their toys because not only do they have creative imaginations but with they have an ability to interact with each other. Ralph provides them with some positivity and they fed off of that and were able to work together to start a fire. Although without this way of getting back to their innocence they will all work for their own well being.
Delete"He caressed the shell respectfully, then stopped and looked up." (38) While this quote is very short, I find that it sums up the essence of the conch very well. The pink shell that every child has to hold to speak represents the utmost authority and power. With this conch the person who holds it is no longer an unimportant part of the group, they become the authority and can guide people in the direction they please. Golding uses the word "respectfully" to show how without it this group might aimlessly work to individual goals rather than working together as one larger group towards a common goal. The description of the passing of the shell is very vivid almost to signify that any person including the younger children can hold the power. While Ralph might be the leader the conch is the most powerful piece of the group and without it they would not have a purpose. The power of the conch is not only evident in this group it is also evident in human nature. People need a symbol or a way of communicating their motives that is obvious and allows them to connect with it. This conch reminds me of the religions that are evident in our society, the children look to the conch when they are afraid because the person that holds it acts like some sort of God in that moment. Religion is a knowledge that when you are afraid, their is something to look to and this conch is doing that very thing for these kids. Due to the power of the person who holds the conch, it can also be very dangerous. If someone misuses the fear that the children instill within the shell, the true source of their authority, they can become very dangerous.
ReplyDelete"I got the conch! Just you listen! The first thing we ought to have made was shelters down there by the beach. It wasn't half cold down there in the night. But the first time Ralph says 'fire' you goes howling and screaming up this here mountain. Like a pack of kids!" (45).
ReplyDeleteI find this quote said by Piggy very significant. For one, it shows me that Piggy is starting to gain the courage to stand up and say what needs to be said to the group of kids. Throughout the first and second chapter we see Piggy still getting treated poorly and when I got to this it really made me feel proud of Piggy for saying he had the conch and he needs to speak. Another reason why I find this quote significant is because I completely agree with him. He knows what is suppose to be done and he acts more of a leader than Ralph does for starters which makes you question even more why Ralph has that position. When Piggy says "Like a pack of kids" it made me see Piggy as the adult or authority figure. Since the beginning he would ask if there was any adults and Ralph could careless that there isn't any adults because he can have fun. The rest of the boys minus Piggy do act like kids treating this as a game thinking adults will magically rescue them when the time comes when Piggy knows that's unrealistic.
I do agree on how this quote is significant for piggy because, it shows Piggy developed a sense of strength or character to stand up for himself. My question is how Piggy uses the line "Like a pack of kids!" If he is a kid himself? Typically the simile we use is "Like a pack of wolves." To describe on a person's behavior. I think this courage that Piggy suddenly developed is due to having many responsibilities that he has encountered since there are no adults around
Delete"A pall stretched for miles away from the island. All the boys except Piggy started to giggle; presently they were shrieking with laughter."
ReplyDeleteI chose this quote to talk about because I think it really emphasizes the fact that these kids are in an awful situation and don't know how to handle it. I think this symbolizes a situation that almost everyone has been in before, sometimes when things are really tough you just have to laugh. This laughter doesn't feel like that though, this feels like we're laughing because there is nothing else to do, it feels like a desperate laugh. It is also interesting that Piggy is the only one who is not laughing, it shows that he, even though everyone ignores him, understands the situation they're in. Does Piggy represent the parent? The person who is always warning people about the consequences but is never listened to. I think that everyone knows Piggy is talking sense but they don't want to believe it, they want to be oblivious and happy. The saying "ignorance is bliss" fits in well here.
I like that you chose this quote involving laughter. I find it very easy to forget that these are children in this situation because it is unsuitable for their age. I am reminded of how young they are when they immaturely bully each other, or tease each other, or when Ralph does handstands.
DeleteI think that this is a really important point, and I think this is a great part of the story for us to empathize with Piggy. He feels like he is the only mature one, and to an extent he is the only mature there. He takes things seriously, and to me they should be taken seriously, but it's hard for kids, especially small ones, to face serious issues with straight faces. Maybe they are in shock, and maybe they just do not understand, but for whatever the case, they just don't want to do it.
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ReplyDeleteAs well as this repetetive behavior, Jack displays another fairly nervous, immature action in this scene. He claims, with the aid of his faithful posse, that the reason he did not kill the pig when he had the chance is because it got away (" 'Before I could kill it...' "), when in fact the reader knows that he really just lost his nerve because he IS still a child. His denial of this fact and his descision to bluff and mask that self-consciousness in front of the rest of the boys shows how he is unable to fit the role of a leader as well.
DeleteHowever, the same could probably be said for Ralph: all of the boys are in the same situation and Ralph's only real asset that separates him from Jack is his more pacific outlook. Both boys are equally nervous, the question lies in how they display and conquer those fears.
Sorry, the post got moved, but this^ is a response to Jake's post.
Delete" 'Like kids!' [Piggy] said scornfully. 'Acting like a crowd of kids!' "
ReplyDeletePiggy takes, it would seem, some amount of pride in knowing that he is more mentally capable than most of the other boys on the island; despite his open and deep admiration of Ralph, he is essentially the brains behind the operation and without him Ralph would be lost amid the anarchy and terror Jack brings.
Piggy is already displacing himself from the rest of the group in this scene, and his patronizing tone suggests that he does consider himself better than the rest even though his overweight appearance and other physical setbacks (i.e. asthma, his spectacles) should probably lower his self confidence.
Even though at first Piggy's comment here seems to show his airs of haughtiness, they might actually hint at more immaturity from the boy. He's addressing Ralph in this sentence, the boy he looks up to, and might hope to impress him with his supposed incredulous attitude towards the immaturity of the others. If that were the case, Piggy would not actually have any right to complain about the immature instincts of the others because he too would be acting just as immature, trying to gain the attention of the one he looks up to in the hopes of being noticed. The hypocrisy of Piggy's statement is not lost easily here.
I agree. I wonder whether Piggy is happy to be on this island or not, to me it seems almost like a way to restart. No one knows who you are, where you come from, if you are rich or poor ect. . Piggy even says at first to Ralph that he doesn't want to be called Piggy anymore, he wants to escape his old life. This doesn't work out for Piggy at all, is this Golding trying to say something about the world? Maybe deep down you can never really change who you are, and if you try to change yourself it ultimately won't work.
Delete“’We saw-‘ ‘Squealing-‘ ‘It broke away-‘ ‘Before I could kill it-but- next time!’ Jack slammed his knife into a trunk and looked round challengingly” (33)
ReplyDeleteI chose this quote because it just reaffirms the right decision made by the group to elect Ralph leader, instead of Jack. Although Jack puts up a confident front, in actuality he is still a very nervous, self-conscious child. Being thrown into such a mature and adult situation, these childish aspects, that may not be so apparent had the kid been in an appropriate situation, become very evident. I also found this quote to be important because in the previous chapter nearly the exact same situation occurred; Jack got nervous and self conscious, vowed he would kill the pig the next time, then stabbed a tree trunk. The author stated the same situation twice to really implant the sense of nervousness that can flee the reader’s mind when they forget that they are reading about children. How will Jack evolve throughout the story? Will he end up rising to the occasion or not?
“Like kids!” he said scornfully. “Acting like a crowd of kids!”
ReplyDeleteWhen I read this line, I imagine Ralph using a tone such my mom would use when she gets mad at me. He is saying it as if he isn’t a kid any more. Thus showing that in order to become the leader, one has to step up and “lose” their innocence and become the more mature one. The kids are coming up with "lots of rules!" and assigning jobs to each other such as "hunters" to allow the reader to think that they are completely in control of all this as if they are really adults.
I agree (and actually I used the same quote as you!) however, the one who says this line is Piggy, not Ralph. Piggy also repeats his words later on the page after Ralph runs off after the rest of the group.
DeleteSo if becoming leader requires a loss of innocence, who is displaying better leadership qualities? And, as I said in my post, is Piggy really showing his maturity here or is it a mask to hide his true insecurities?
P.S. Sorry I commented on two posts, I just thought a lot about this line so I wanted to reply.
I completely agree with what you are saying. When I read this quote I was so taken aback by it! Ralph is acting as if he has so much more authority over them, like he expects so much more. In reality, he is the same age as them. Also, he is pointing out the obvious! They ARE kids, of course they are acting like it! Ralph thinks so highly of himself that he cannot even stop to realize the ridiculousness of his ways. As if that were not already enough, after he makes this outburst, he himself runs after the group. How are you going to make fun of them for acting like a crowd of kids but then go yourself and follow their actions?
DeleteJoyce i see what you are getting at, but i would have to disagree with your point. I think Ralph says what he says because he wants to be respected, and him being the leader of the group he should get respect and that is the reason he in a way yelled because he wants to be respected. But i wouldn't say he is becoming mature and becoming an adult because in the passage we read i thought he was trying to get out him not being supervised by an adult and being to do whatever he wants. Ralph might be the maturest out of the group but he is still trying to have fun. So i don't think it is loss of innocence.
Delete"The simple statement, unbacked by any proof but the weight of ralph's new authority, brought light and happiness." (37) This quote describes the type of authority that Ralph actually has over the other kids. He fills them with a false sense of assurance, giving them confidence in relief. Although this seems to be a bad thing, it might be good, because it keeps the boys' spirits up. In that way, Ralph might be just the type of leader that they need. This is somewhere that Piggy would not do well. He has the best ideas for survival, but Ralph keeps the spirits up. Together, piggy and Ralph have the two aspects to keep the boys going. Furthermore, Jack and Ralph's growing relationship will tear these aspects apart.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that both Ralph and Piggy are needed as a pair to keep the group going, because their mental and physical aspects are useful and helpful. Ralph is such a positive and hopeful person that he would help the group mentally survive this unfortunate event while Piggy would physically help everyone to survive using his intelligence. But what aspect would Jack provide for the group of boys in terms of survival?
Delete"You got your small fire all right." (p.44)
ReplyDeleteBy this point in the story, Piggy has completely lost it. He has been shunned by the others and can no longer deal with their denial of the situation. Piggy has been shoving evidence of their possible misfortune in the boys' faces, yet they continue to ignore him. Piggy is the only one who is truly aware of the level of hardship they are to face. He has logically planned out their survival tactics, yet none of the boys will even stop to give him the time of day. In this quote, Piggy is so fed up by the others that he uses sarcasm to show the boys a taste of their own medicine. When they set the island on fire, Piggy does not panic. Instead, he laughs at them. He has stopped caring, he is in such a state of shock that he cannot understand the full meaning of what the boys have just done. Piggy points out the flaws the others made, wasting firewood, losing time to make shelter, even possibly burning the younger children alive. Throughout all of this though, he keeps a cynical outlook. He shoves the boys' theories back in their faces, saying that if all the wanted was a fire, they got it.
I totally agree with you Alyssa! Piggy has been a very neglected person in this situation, but yet he is familiar with the harm this fire might bring. I think that this is a huge turning point for him, because usually he was the one being laughed at, but he laughs right back at them with the "i told you so" type of act. This makes me question if Piggy can use this turning point as a open door for him to speak up and inform that this is dangerous? Or will it be every man for himself for Piggy?
Delete"A pall stretched for miles away from the island. All the boys except Piggy started to giggle...Piggy lost his temper 'I got the conch! Just you listen...But the first time Ralph says fire you goes howling and screaming up this here mountain. Like a pack of kids!'"(47)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because of the exploding catharsis that Piggy has constructed. Piggy is a very neglected boy, but at this very moment everyone is sort of startled by how Piggy lets out his thoughts and emotions. This is also another quote that symbolizes the conch as power and it creates this yet so effective moment where Piggy mentions he has the conch, so he should be granted the respect everyone else gets. He has been underestimated by everyone on this island, although to me he is the most enlightened. He is aware of the consequences of this fire they are creating. We talked in class about presidents most likely being picked out for their looks, but to be a great leader on this island, I think looks don't matter for survival. Piggy is described as a fat boy with specs while Ralph has more of an advantage in looks. But i realized that it all comes down to not looks but the knowledge one has and that person is Piggy. I wonder if Piggy will somehow "rebel" in a sense of this unjust set of rules.
"All at once the crowd swayed toward the island and was gone- following Jack. Even the the tiny children went and did their best among the leaves and broken branches. Ralph was left, holding the conch, with no one but piggy" (38). This quote stood out to me because it foreshadows the power struggle between Jack and Ralph. Golding describes the crowd as "swaying"to highlight the swarm-like quality of the group. You can tell from this quote that this will be a recurring problem for them when they are left to their own devices. I think the group's behavior is representative of humans' natural instincts to flock towards the most confident person when they are scared. Ralph's stillness is reassuring, but Jack's adventurous confidence is exciting and seems more effective on first thought. The fact that Ralph was left with only the conch and Piggy is extremely symbolic of Ralph's character. The conch is his most effective trait as leader, but perhaps his only leader-like trait is in this conch. Piggy, being the only one who stayed with him, represents his most loyal follower. The question is whether Ralph will be respectful enough to listen to Piggy's reasoning and accept him as a trusted friend or take him for granted.
ReplyDeleteI think that a good example that supports you're argument would be that just before the "swarm" storms off and follows Jack into the woods, they are all extremely excited about Ralph's little motivational speech: "'And sooner or later a ship will put in here...we shall be rescued.' He paused, with the point made. The assembly was lifted toward safety by his words." Then, the whole crowd, even Jack, begin applauding what was really a whole bunch of guesses that are unreasonable yet reassuring. It is also funny how quickly he loses their attention to Jack, showing that they are torn between two groups, which I would agree seems indicitave of a future power struggle between the two.
DeleteToday's reading was interesting and the quote that stood out to me was said by Ralph, "this is our land. It is a good land. Until the grownups come and fetch us, we'll have fun." (34) I found this quote interesting because i believe the boy are not taking being stranded on an island as a dangerous thing. Ralph thinks that we can have fun, and he goes on in the chapter saying how there is food and water and how he describes it, he describes as a fun and easy task. He thinks its a good island because he saw one pig and he jumps to the conclusion of it being a island with food. But in dept i believe the quote is explaining how Ralph is taking advantage of not being supervised by an adult and he is saying how we can do anything we want and the fact of adults not being there makes it fun and makes it his land. Ralph just says its a good land because he has the freedom to do whatever he wants and and since there is no adult, he portrays being on the stranded land as a positive thing because he is able to have fun without adult supervision.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with you. From the start he is very excited to be without any grown-ups around to make the decision, but he also seems very confident in his work as a leader. I think you also have to remember that most of these kids are around twelve or so years old; of course they're are going to want some fun involved with a supposedly disastrous situation.
DeleteToday's reading was interesting and the quote that stood out to me was said by Ralph, "this is our land. It is a good land. Until the grownups come and fetch us, we'll have fun." (34) I found this quote interesting because i believe the boy are not taking being stranded on an island as a dangerous thing. Ralph thinks that we can have fun, and he goes on in the chapter saying how there is food and water and how he describes it, he describes as a fun and easy task. He thinks its a good island because he saw one pig and he jumps to the conclusion of it being a island with food. But in dept i believe the quote is explaining how Ralph is taking advantage of not being supervised by an adult and he is saying how we can do anything we want and the fact of adults not being there makes it fun and makes it his land. Ralph just says its a good land because he has the freedom to do whatever he wants and and since there is no adult, he portrays being on the stranded land as a positive thing because he is able to have fun without adult supervision.
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Delete"'That little 'un that had a mark on his face--where is--he now? I tell you I don't see him.' The boys looked at each other fearfully, unbelieving. '--where is he now?' Ralph muttered the reply as if in shame." Page 58
ReplyDeleteI thought this whole scene in the book was interesting because it showed Piggy, the kid who got picked on, teased, and generally ignored, stepping up and acting more like an adult than anyone on the island. Despite getting shut down and pushed away by Jack and even Ralph a few times, he regains his confidence and is able to seem like a leader for a short while. Piggy is, in a way, exposing Ralph and the other big kids to be lazy, unrealistic, detached "leaders". He is forcing the reality of their situation closer to them, so that it stares them in the face--while the other boys would like to cheer on about the fire and forget about the little boy who's gone missing, Piggy deals with the problems everyone else is ignoring. The thing is, I am predicting that it will only lead people to hating him more. The kids in this "society", which it is actually called by the narrator on page 48 (I would say it's a stretch) seem like the kind of people to shoot the messenger-meaning that if Piggy is the one delivering the bad news, the inconvenient truth, he is probably going to get the blame for it from these immature kids. I think Golding is highlighting that in society, as it is, we tend to ignore the big problems that face us and shoot down anyone who raises attention to them, because we want them to conform and be just as blind to the world in front of us as we are.
I think that is a really good point, that we try to ignore the big problems in society, in order that we seem confident, and have fewer problems to worry about. As you called it an inconvenient truth, it reminds me of global warming. Many people these days do not believe in climate change although to most of us it seems apparent and obvious. In opposition of their view, it seems that the people disagreeing with the idea of global warming are doing it so that they have less on their plate to worry about, and ignore it as a problem to cut spending, and continue to stop regulations in order to make more money. This is exactly like what Jack and Ralph do when they ignore the stupidity of their ideas. Even though what they are doing may not be smart, it wins them popularity, and is therefore convenient for their purposes.
Delete"He took off his glasses and made as if to put down the conch; but sudden motion toward it of most of the older boys changed his mind. He tucked the shell under his arm, and crouched on a rock"(45) This line is where it starts to kick in for me, and I'm sure the rest of the characters(especially Piggy) that survival of the fittest is about to start. Ralph tried to set some rules, but because there are always stronger, better humans, and someone lacking maturity will easily ruin order for their own selfish desires. That is why everything is so hard for Ralph here. He is forced to deal with the task of controlling a bunch of human beings who can overpower him, and who lack the correct brain function to make their own decisions. They aren't even able to vote on something, only because they don't take things as seriously as they should be taken. Is this a question of how children are raised, or how human beings naturally do not develop judgement skills correctly?
ReplyDelete"Nobody knows we are here...The plane was shot down in flames. Nobody knows where we are. We may be here for a long time." (34)
ReplyDeleteBefore Piggy says this, and a little after, Ralph repeatedly mentions that his father is in the Navy. He thinks that his father is going to come get them because he has the ability to obtain ships and maps and such. Piggy shoots down this theory by basically saying no one has any idea that they are on an island, or even which one. For all these children know, the grownups might not even realize that their plane has crashed. You see Piggy really step up here and put reality into everybody's heads. Ralph says "there aren't any unknown islands left [according to his father]. He says the queen has a big room full of maps..." (37). Ralph continues to lead with this idealists idea, that someone is going to find them: Of course its possible, but not realistic.
Another interesting thing about this section is that Piggy is obviously the most knowledgable one, but he is ignored and many of his ideas are shot down because he is fat and awkward. The boys don't care how many great ideas Piggy has. He is different so he can't be in charge. Also, Ralph and the other boys are thinking positive but not realistically, like you said, and Piggy is thinking more pessimistically. However, the other boys don't want to listen to him because they want to believe they are going to get saved.
Delete“I agree with Ralph. We’ve got to have rules and obey them. After all, we’re not savage. We’re English and the English are the best at everything. So we’ve got to do the right things. “(42)
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me because, it did shock me because, first the boys are able to comprehend that in order to make a functional society you have to have some laws or in this case “rules”. Also, I’m impressed by the level of maturity that 10-12 year old boys have to make decisions for a functional system for being stranded in an island. Such as voting for a leader, looking for food, how to make fire and the most importantly to make a set of rules that everyone could respect and follow. The second line of the quote “Were English and the English are best at everything” reminded me the short story “Everyday Use” by Alice Walker because, this idea of being better than someone reminded the characterization of Dee and how Mama portrayed her. Mama portrayed Dee as being very cocky and full of herself because she went to get an education and abandoned her family and her own identity because it did not to live up to her standards. This line is similar because it shows the boys being full of themselves because their English. And, they have to live up to a certain amount standards that will not be frowned upon in their society.
"This is our island. It's a good island. Until the grownups come to fetch us we'll have fun." (30)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because Ralph is making the situation seem like more of a game. He, and the other boys, that it is a matter of trying to survive, not having fun. Throughout the chapter someone keeps mentioning how this is a fun thing because they have the entire island to themselves. The first chapter made it seem like the boys understood, in a sense, that they had to take control and be responsible for taking care of themselves. However, in the second chapter it is all fun and games. This makes me assume that in the future the boys won't be prepared for the hardships that will hit them.
Jane, i completely agree with you. Its really hard to understand how they could possibly take a situation like the one they're in and take it as a game. When analyzing it though, i feel as if they feel like its a game because they're finally in control- not having to worry about parents making the rules. Because of this, they try to take advantage of that and turn their situation into something positive.
Delete"All at once the crowd swayed toward the island and was gone following Jack...Ralph was left, holding the conch, with no one but Piggy."
ReplyDeleteI found this quote interesting because even though they elected Ralph as the leader, they still follow Jack. I feel that Ralph is more of a temporary leader, because the choir boys along with the rest of the group follow Jack. Except when they find themselves in a troubled position then they call for Ralph. The fact that they do not respect their elected leader shows the cooperation and relationship the kids are going to have. This is a bad signal as well as the fact that they can not obey simple rules does not show a hopeful future. However, it would be wrong to say that they do not work well together because they were able to start a fire, and they worked together wonderfully, but there is no chemistry between them. They show no compassions towards each other, especially Piggy who is of great importance to the group, for he keeps count of the people in the group. He basically keeps them togther.
After all of the children run up the mountain after Ralph mentions a fire, "Piggy watched him in disgust. 'Like a crowd of kids-'...with the martyred expression of a parent who has to keep up with the senseless ebullience of the children, he picked up the conch, turned toward the forest, and began to pick his way over the tumbled scar." Piggy seems to be the most parental, mature, and intelligent character in the book so far. He is disgusted by the childrens' immediate reaction, without hesitation, and compares them to a crowd of kids even though that is exactly what they are. Piggy already sees this group of boys as something more significant; perhaps as a real functioning community, up until this point. After this point Piggy discontinues his faith in the group, and sees them as childlike and even stupid. The words that stood out the most to me about this quote is that Piggy is described, as having a 'martyred expression' of a parent trying to deal with overly excited and joyful kids. This idea of Piggy being a martyr really stands out to me. As of yet, Piggy has made no sacrifices for the group, and has sat on the side, not participating in any way. Even so he is described as martyred because this position he takes on, as a parental, authoritative figure, pushes a responsibility on him, taken up by no other member of the community. He is sacrificing his carefree, childlike ways for the sake of the group, and the intelligence he knows he must offer. At this point it is revealed that Piggy must take on an adult role, just like it is revealed to Connie in 'Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?', when she finally realizes that she must change her ways for her own good, and makes a sacrifice for her family.
ReplyDelete"Ralph and Jack looked at each other while society paused about them." (40)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out to me because out of nowhere in only the second chapter of the book the young boys are referred to as a society. The dictionary definition of society is: "The agreement of people living together in more or less ordered society." (desktop dictionary) This quote clearly shows that the boys have already lost themselves in this new world and that there perception of themselves has changed. They are now adults. Because of there lack of adults the have no one else to compare with, so as far as any of are concerned they are mature. This quote shows how quickly people can selfishly lose themselves in their own little world. They are not mature enough to recognize that they are immature and not as experienced as adults. This overestimation of themselves will not be good in the future because they still have many childish aspects that they don't even realize.
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ReplyDelete"Rescue? yes of course! All the same, I'd like to catch a pig first.."(53).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stuck out to me because I felt that it was little weird that being rescued isn't as important as catching and killing a pig; Jack makes it seem as though being rescued is not his first priority but being able to kill a pig is. In my opinion, Jack is acting like this because he feels the need to show that he is capable of catching and killing a pig and by doing he would be able to gain back that sense of being tough and ruthless and capable of anything, the same way of feeling he lost when he didn't kill that first pig. To Jack, being able to kill without hesitation, is a quality any great leader should have, but in fact that is not the case. All in all, I feel as though Jack feels he needs to prove something to the other boys, and by proving this to them, in return he feels he will also be proving it to himself. Also, on page 53, before Jack makes the reference to wanting to kill a pig before he leaves the island and Ralph is bringing up the topic of being rescued, no only does he not share Ralph's priority of being rescued, "Jack had to think for a moment before he could remember what rescued was." This quote also stuck out to me because I feel that Jack just may be loosing hope in being found and taken back home, I just feel as though he has given up on the idea. Also, l don't feel Jack is the only one who has given up on hope, I think a few of the other boys may have too.
I defiantly agree with this, but you have to wounder why jack doesn't find any concern in getting rescued? Getting back home is not a priority. We have say that jake probably doesn't have any where to go back to, no home, no one. Many of these characters are fixed a way because of there past which we as readers have to assume& guess.
Delete"We Saw--"
ReplyDelete"Squealing--"
"It Broke away--"
"Before I could kill it-- but-- next time!"
Jack slammed his knife into a trunk and looked round challengingly(33)
A reason that i chose this quote was the amount of anger and violence in the actions of Jack. Its almost a little startling because he himself becomes so frustrated that he wasn't able to kill the pig. Its almost as if he had to prove something to himself, and the others.
"Silence now. Ralph lifted the cream and pink shell to his knees and a subventions breeze scattered light over the platform" (pg. 32)
ReplyDeleteThis here almost reminds me of some imaginary light you feel you might have above your head when you an idea. The motion of how light just breezed on Ralph almost seems like he is a chosen one who all must see an follow. But here he himself isn't sure of what to do in the situation.