Post your reader responses here: Choose a line or two from Chapter 1 and explain why it stands out to you. Does this line shock you, confuse you, or seem important in some way? Does it make you ask a question? Can you make a connection to your life or another text? Does the language stand out to you for some reason? What is this line saying about the characters in the novel and about people or the world, in general?
Then, respond to a classmate's post. Agree or disagree, but make sure that you add something new-- a new idea, a reference to another part of the book. Include textual evidence as you push the conversation forward. Ask more questions to keep the dialogue going...and remember-- this assignment is all about thinking/analysis.
The quote that struck me right at the beginning of Chapter 2 is "We can't have everyone talking at once...I'll give the conch to the next person to speak. He can hold it when he's speaking." (33) Right away Ralph is learning how to take advantage of his role as the leader. He now knows that the only way everyone's voice will be heard is if one person is speaking at a time and the others are listening. This reminded me of how in school everyone has to raise their hand in order to get their point across and add to the conversation. If multiple are talking at once no one is going to be heard and nothing will move forward. In the boys case, they are stranded on this island so in order for them to signal for help and to decide what their next move is everyone must take others suggestions into consideration or else they will be stranded even longer. By Ralph declaring this action he is truly standing up as a leader and making decisions for the best interest of the group.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that the conch is really just an excuse for Ralph to become the leader of all of the boys. They are kind of in a way forced to listen to him because they are stranded and there is no other choice whether that choice is good or not doesn't matter at the end of the day.
DeleteI uderstand your point but I disagree. I do not think that that Ralph is trying to vtake advantage of his leadership and role as a leader. The the reason why I think that Ralph is telling people that they have to raise their hand when they speak and they have to hold the conch is to stop from there being utter chaos when people are trying to speak. Also to keep their soceity (the children) civilized,and so that every child has a chance to share their opinion.
Delete-Marcello Brattesani
The conflict between the instincts of civilization and savagery emerges quickly within the group: the boys, especially Piggy, know that they must act with order and forethought if they are to be rescued, but the longer they remain apart from the society of adults, the more difficult it becomes for them to adhere to the disciplined behavior of civilization. In Chapter 1, the boys seem determined to re-create the society they have lost, but as early as Chapter 2, their instinctive drive to play and gratify their immediate desires undermines their ability to act collectively. As a result, the signal fire nearly fails, and a young boy apparently burns to death when the forest catches fire. The constraints of society still linger around the boys, who are confused and ashamed when they learn the young boy is missing—a sign that a sense of morality still guides their behavior at this point.
ReplyDeleteNik i think that your analysis about recreation of society is really great and I felt the same way when I read chapter 1. I think that there instinctive drive is much better then what you paint it as in your response. For one thing this "drive" gets the boys to understand the direness of their situation, it also forces them to be proactive and even though evident through the fire it is not a flawless system, they at least have one. I also disagree with your idea that it is difficult for them to "adhere to the disciplined behavior of civilization" because there is no civilization. They are acting of their own accord and there most certainly is no behavioral norm for the boys to adhere to (most of them are naked because they no longer feel pressure from society).
DeleteForgot my quote up top appeantly, but the quote that stuck out to me was, "Ralph felt the conch lifted from his lap. Then Piggy was standing cradling the great cream shell and the shouting died down" (33).
ReplyDeleteThroughout Lord of the Flies I have seen a theme of superiority and a hunger for power between all of the main characters. Jack and Ralph’s need to boost their own egos by controlling all actions of all the boys present their own insecurities. Golding purposefully created these two characters and demonstrated them as egotistical and arrogant to make you question why they felt the need to act that way. When Jack says, “We’ve got to have rules and obey them. We’re English, and the English are best at everything” I saw more and more of his personality. There hunger for power suggests that in their everyday life they have little or no power.
ReplyDeleteRalph and Jack’s constant mention of the lack of supervision on the island leads me to believe that they both have bad relationships with adults or anyone in charge of them. They have take all this pent up fury from being told what to do for so many years and released it on the less superior boys of the group especially Piggy who seems to be there go to ego boost.
Kate-I agree with your first two points. Especially when you drew the connection about why Ralph is hungry for power. I also agree when you said that Ralph and Jack's relationships with adults in the past may have been bad due to the way they react to the lack of supervision. But I don't think that the reason that Jack and Ralph treat Piggy badly is because of their pent up anger to adults in the past, I think that it's due to the possibility that in the past they had been the "Piggy" of some situations with other school mates.
Delete-Lily Cook
I completely agree with you that they have an obsession with the idea of no control, but I don't think that either of the boys neccesarily have bad relationships with adults. I noticed how Golding constantly mentions school uniforms and how the choir has a uniform. This proofed how much control is in their everyday lives, and this is why they are so excited to be un supervised. I also wonder if they will know how to deal with this free time? All they have done is have school like meeting, demonstrating how hard it is for them to break out of their daily routines.
DeleteI agree with your point that the boys are hungry for power. It seems that Jack and Ralph are used to being in control, when they are not in a position power they seem to be uncomfortable, such as when the little boy convinces some of they boys that there is a snake in the woods. The quote you chose also struck me as it showed how blind they are. They seem to believe that they are invincible, and throughout the chapters seem to arrogantly think that they are un-defitable. For example, when Ralph states blantantly that his father will come save him. How does he know this? I think this shows how the characters arrogance blinds them.
DeleteI found the small amount of change in Piggy’s character very interesting in chapter two. Even though the assembly “stirred and began to shout him down,” he confronts Ralph about being ignored (43). On the other hand, during this chapter Ralph looks for approval when speaking to the other boys, “Laughing, Ralph looked for confirmation round the ring of faces. The older boys agreed” (36). Why should Ralph need the consent of others when he is the leader? I wonder if Ralph is not as confident as he is perceived in the first chapter, therefore needs reassurance for his decisions. I think that this quote shows that Ralph may not be as mean as he is first described in the book. Instead, he is willing to listen to the opinions of others when making choices; this may be the reason why Golding uses the word “fair” to describe Ralph at the beginning of the story.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what you said about Ralph. I think that he is looking for approval because he is the leader. I understand that he is the leader so he should be confident, but at the same time, he does not know all the kids there, so he needs the approval. They can easily over throw him if they don't "like" him. Also, I think that it is part of human nature to constantly look for approval from anyone. Usually, for kids its their parents approval, but, since there's no parents here, they naturally depend on the approval of other kids. In conclusion, I think that Ralph is simply just trying to be liked by listening and agreeing with the other kids.
DeleteI completely agree with your thoughts on Ralph's confidence. I felt the same way in chapter one, but I now believe that Ralph's character has deceived me. I think that Ralph is still the "fair" boy that Golding describes his as and that is probably why he is the leader of the boys, but I think that his need for approval is stopping him from being his best self.
DeleteA quote that I found interesting is "piggy wilted. Ralph took the conch from him and looked round the circle of boys." I find it strange how Ralph doesn't want to hear Piggy speak but he will let the other kids speak, and he wants to hear their opinion. It's weird almost as if Ralph doesn't want to hear Piggy's opinion. My guess for this is that he knows that Piggy is right and Ralph just doesn't want to hear that he is wrong. For examlpe when Piggy was critisizing how they had started such a big fire, Ralph kept cutting him off and telling him to "shut up" because Ralph knew that Piggy was right.
ReplyDelete-Marcello Brattesani
I feel like Ralph doesn't pay attention to Piggy not because he thinks that he is right and he will overpower his opinion, but because he is fat and shy. I think Ralph doesn't show respect for Piggy because he knows that Piggy barely even shows respect for himself. The moment they met each other you got that inferior sense to Piggy, telling Ralph his name first and following him around.
DeleteI also noticed that as well. That Ralph didn't let Piggy speak, and that made me wonder maybe he didn't let Piggy speak, because of fear that he will lose authority,which he is just learning the role of power he didn't know before,"Something he had not known was there rose in him and compelled him to make a point."(37). This was after Ralph started feeling out of control, and quickly had to regain order. In society today when someone has power they want to maintain it for as long as possible.
DeleteIn chapter two of Lord of the Flies you start to see Ralph’s leadership being threatened for the first time. In my previous blog post I talked about how Ralph is incredibly immature for his age, I think he is older due to his physical appearance. In this chapter you start to see his immaturity coming across in his leadership. For example when he once again fantasized about his dad picking them up, “ my father’s in the Navy. He said there aren’t any unknown islands left. He says’s the queen has a big room full of maps and the entire island in the world are drawn there. So the Queen’s got a picture of this island.” As any good leader should Ralph is lying to better his people, and make them feel safer. The problem is that Ralph is deceiving him self, he is still in a complete state of denial. Even after searching the island and seeing no other form of human life, he can still not come to terms with the circumstances they are in. Another example in when he starts to scream that there was no snake, and that this “beast” was made up. This makes me think that this new power or possibly the island is starting to drive him crazy, and makes me wonder if all the boys will be driven crazy?
ReplyDeleteElla, you have some undeniable points, but I have to bring up the fact that it cannot be forgotten that these are all children. It is not simply a child's nature to hold on to a sense of hope, perhaps even a false sense of hope, but human nature as well. Accepting that they are in dire circumstances is absolutely a necessity, however, completely letting go of any unlikely or implausible hopes could essentially create a state of chaos. Keeping these notions that everything will be alright in their heads, the children have at least some reason to keep order on the island That is, until all hope is lost, then any hope of order is lost, too, as the children will have nothing to hold on to or strive for, other than their own survival.
DeleteI found it highly interesting that "Ralph was annoyed and, for a moment defeated..."(37) by his piers so easily. At the beginning of the book I thought that Ralph would be a fair and smart leader for the boys, but this quote makes me doubt him and his leadership skills. It seemed like Ralph was good at handling people, but obviously he is not. This was only the second meeting that the boys had, and he already seems "defeated." This makes me question Ralph. Is he truly a good leader for the group? This quote makes me think that he is self centered because he feels not in control over the situation. His lack of commitment to the boys and their problems shows that he is not fit to be a leader.
ReplyDeleteLila I agree with your questioning, but I also think that Ralph may just be nervous. Although leaders aren't supposed to show weakness Ralph does which doesn't look good for him. I think though that it is a big responsibility to be a leader especially when they are stranded on an island and people are constantly overpowering you. Hopefully as the book continues Ralph will redeem himself.
DeleteI agree with both points, and i think that not only is Ralph nervous, but he lacks some of the confidence that he acted like he had. On page 38, when Jack leads everyone to collect firewood and Ralph tries to get their attention but fails, it shows how Ralph does not really have full leadership of the group. I think that this will develop in a power struggle between Ralph and Jack.
DeleteI tottaly agree with both you and emmma that Ralph is not doing what is best for the children on the island but whats best for himself and his hold over them. I also think that some of its because Ralph is still not shore about his position as leader and that he wants to do what ever he can to make it seem as if hes doing the best for them while in reality hes just holding onto the little bit of power that he has
DeleteLily Cook
ReplyDeleteIn chapter 2 of Lord of the Flies, Golding continues to develop undertones of power struggles between Piggy, Ralph and Jack. There are times when Piggy is reprimanded by Ralph and Jack when they are outright blunt towards him in their rudeness. But then there are also more subtle things that Ralph especially says to Piggy that make him look bad on purpose. This came up on page 41 on my version of the book, when Ralph shouts to Piggy, "'Piggy! Have you got any matches?". Piggy shook his head to say no, and I think the reason Ralph asked Piggy this is because he already knew Piggy was going to not have matches, and prove himself not useful or up to Ralph's standards yet again. In this sense, Ralph set Piggy up to fail, which made him look bad. I'm not saying that my analysis of this quote is accurate, because it's a seemingly innocent question and entirely up to interpretation but it just made me think about Ralph's reasoning behind asking him.
I agree with your analysis of this quote. In the first two chapters Ralph constantly tries to put Piggy down. I wonder if Ralph does this because he feels threatened with Piggy's intelligence. I think Ralph is purposely setting up Piggy for failure so that he can keep his position as the group's leader.
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ReplyDeleteA couple of days ago I wrote a blog post about being a good leader and what qualifies one to be a good leader. After reading Chapter 2, I realized that I was being too closed minded. It seemed pretty obvious to everyone that the only two people that qualified to be a leader was Jack and Ralph, but, now I believe Piggy qualifies as well. Sure Piggy isn't the bravest or the strongest, but, he is the smartest. The boys' savage instincts causes them to value strength over intelligence. Piggy represents the scientific and intellectual aspects of a civilization. He also seems to be the only rational one. As the boys try to make sense of how to be rescued, they act spontaneous and irrational by starting a fire on the mountain. Piggy tries to explain how it would not work by making humorous, sarcastic remarks to Ralph. "I bet it's gone by tea time, what do they think they're going to do on that mountain?" (38). He also scornfully says that they are "acting like a crowd of kids" (38). Their actions and immediate desires undermines their ability to act collectively, thus causing the signal fire to fail and a young boys life being threatened. It seems to me that only Piggy sees the big picture. Ralph and the other boys focus only on fun and pleasure. It is so frustrating that although Piggy knows whats right, the other boys still gang up on him. If only Piggy was confident and strong then he would be a huge threat to Ralph. I wonder if the boys would be better off with Piggy as a leader, rather than Ralph and Jack.
ReplyDeleteGreat point, Lupe. It seems that no matter what Piggy says or does his point will never get across to the other boys because he is not as strong or confident as Ralph is. The other boys pick on him and call him names, but really he is their best chance to get back home. If they want to get off of this Island they're going to have to start to recognize Piggy's smarts and intuition, over Ralph's brawn and charisma.
DeleteIn chapter two, Ralph's power struggle with Jack begins to show more and Ralph seems to be on the losing hand. "All at once the crowd swayed toward the island and was gone- following Jack. Even the tiny children went and did their best among the leaves and broken branches. Ralph was left, holding the conch with no one, but Piggy." (38). I found this passage to be very significant because Piggy was the first person he met on the island and seems to be Ralph's only true friend. The way that Ralph treats Piggy makes me question his character, he would rather pursue a potential friendship with Jack, his rival, then stick with Piggy, who helped him become leader in the first place.
ReplyDeleteI think that you make a valid point. If you continue down the page, Ralph puts down the conch and begins, "clambering over the first smashed swathes of the scare. A long way ahead of him was crashing a laughter." (38) This quote demonstrates that Ralph will do whatever the group wants to do so that he wont be an outcast. He is much like the others. He would rather be accepted into the group than be an outcast, like Piggy. This, I think, is where he proves not to be a good leader and puts Jack into the light. After reading this, I think that Jack may be a better fit to be leader in some instances.
Delete"'I got the conch! Just you listen! The first thing we ought to have made was shelters down there by the beach. It wasn't half cold down there in the night. But the first time Ralph says 'fire' you goes howling and screaming up this here mountain. Like a pack of kids!'" (p.45) This was the first time that we see Piggy actually standing up for himself among the group of kids. Piggy, after being told to shut up numerous times, finally was fed up with being treated worse than others, and finally voiced his opinions. He showed leadership qualities, and was even concerned with the little kids, wondering if they were going to be safe. At this moment it seemed almost as if Ralph and Piggy switched roles for a moment, because Piggy was so confident and convinced that what he had to say was important and worthwhile, and Ralph had nothing to say, hiding behind his thoughts not knowing how to respond.
ReplyDelete"Have you got any matches?'"p38 Ralph says while attempting to the light the fire in this place with limited recourses until he snatches the glasses off of Piggy’s face in order to use the sun. I admire Ralph for thinking out of the box and using the limited recourses that they have on this island. However, it also stood out to me how cold he was for using Piggy’s glasses without his permission. As I examine his character further, it then occurred to me how rarely he pays attention to his friend unless he needs something from him. Once he has what he needs he then returns to his original distance. I wonder if this is the same with all people who are in dire situations. When in a dire situation will the people they consider friends become only recourses for them to use. I delve deeper and I began to wonder if Ralph even respects Piggy as an equal to himself on the island. Is it the social pressure from the other people on the island that are causing him to only use piggy as a stepping stone or is it something that we all would do instinctively. Are people instinctively wanting to take advantage of those are like Piggy, those who have a weaker personality and physical characteristics?
ReplyDeleteAs the book goes on the reader can see each of the characters developing an identity. Ralph as the leader of the group becomes the voice of reason and morality. Jack almost the complete opposite stands for selfishness and violence. Unlike last chapter though, we see more boys siding with Jack than with Ralph. "Ralph was annoyed and, for the moment defeated"(37). While Ralph, countless times tells the boys that there is no beast, it still strikes fear in many of them. Jack, on the other hand, insists that they have to go hunting for it, and kill it, which brings more comfort to them. The boys seem to value killing this imaginary creature, rather than focusing on getting off the Island. This shift represents them moving from civilization into savagery. An idea I feel will become very important throughout the rest of the book.
ReplyDelete"Ralph was on his feet too, shouting for quiet, but no one heard him. All at once the crowd swayed toward the island and was gone-following Jack" (38). This quote sheds light on the fact that a power struggle between Jack and Ralph is inevitable. Although Ralph was originally elected "chief," it is apparent that there are many kids who remain loyal to Jack. Eventually there will have to be one and only one leader of the group for the sake of their survival, but until then, there will be a continuous struggle for power.
ReplyDeleteI agree Ilan that there is a struggle between these two characters who is the dominant leader, especially since we first see Jack as somewhat of a leader towards the group of boys who arrived orderly, that's why some may follow him because he has that natural born instinct?
DeleteAll throughout the chapter, there seems to be some sort of a search for power. Ralph has somewhat been declared as the leader. Jack, on the other hand, wants to hold all the power. Lastly, Piggy seems to have practical ideas, yet he is rarely heard because no one ever lets him speak. I think that the main focus of the chapter, though, is the power struggle between Ralph and Jack. Although Ralph or Jack may not notice it, there seems to be some tension between them having to do with the fact that Ralph holds most of the power because he doesn't like being overpowered. "Ralph was annoyed and, for the moment, defeated. He felt himself facing something ungraspable. The eyes that looked so intently at him were without humor." (37)This clearly demonstrates Ralph's feelings towards defeat or being powerless. He does not want to be overpowered. He didn't like the fact that people stopped listening to him after Jack made a comment. He believes that his thoughts are rational and fair, whereas Jack focuses on what makes him happy. In a way, I think that the two characters are foils for each other. Jack seems to be a bit of an antagonist with the way that he act somewhat rebellious and Ralph seems to be the protagonist because he is always the voice of reason and trying to make things right, kind of like Piggy.
ReplyDelete" 'I got the conch,' said Piggy, in a hurt voice. "I got a right to speak'. They looked at him with eyes that lacked interest in what they saw..." (44).
ReplyDeleteOriginally, I thought the conch symbolized power (similar to the ring in The Lord of The Rings), as Ralph seemed to gain power when obtaining it. However this quote made me think differently. The conch was supposed to be used as a method of maintaining order, as when people are holding it they are permitted to speak. But, when Piggy is holding it, no one listens to what he has to say. Perhaps the conch represents order and civility. As the boys become more animalistic, they begin to abandon the idea of the conch maintaing the peace. Maybe the boys lack of appreciation of the conch as time progresses shows the boys becoming more like savages.
I agree with you, Ruby. It's funny to think that a simple conch is meant to hold the group of kids together. In a way without it complete chaos could break out. It does offer a sense of order and civility. But like you mentioned, even the conch that is meant to be used by everyone can't bring enough respect to Piggy as it does to people like Ralph and Jack. Which makes me think that maybe the conch as an orderly object isn't the problem. Maybe it's the kids. They aren't willing to let anything offer equality among them. My prediction is that the situation on the island is going to become a battle between everyone, every man for himself. Nothing, including the conch can maintain order.
DeleteAfter coming to the conclusion that the only humans on the island are kids, Ralph announces to everyone, "'There aren't any grown-ups. We shall have to look after ourselves.'" When I originally read this line I thought about what it means to be a kid... I know that sounds a little silly but I really did. And I came to understand that every adult in the world was once a kid themselves. And that every kid in the world will some day be adults. This doesn't change the fact that kids are kids and adults are adults, but it does add some flexibility, I think, to the situation at hand. Yes, there are no physical adults on the island and yes, the island's only human inhabitants are kids, but what I think is most interesting to recognize is that all these kids are also future adults. To claim that there aren't any adults on the island in a way gives the kids some authority themselves. When you have adults and children together it is obvious that the adults are of a higher power than the kids. But in this situation, where no adults are around, we can see that certain kids are rising up and taking charge. In all honesty, whenever Ralph speaks to the kids and holds up the conch, I don't picture him in my mind as a kid! I see him as not an adult, but a kid of higher value. I don't think he is as little as I originally did. Not just that, but I also don't see him equal to the other kids. This idea actually scares me a little. The idea that no matter where you are, under any circumstance, someone or something will always rise to be the leader. This makes me realize that human beings must always be craving a present authority. We need it to survive. In a world where kids are seen as less than adults, it is interesting that one has taken upon himself to act the role of an adult.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your point! In any situation there will always be one person with more authority than the others, but that's just how it goes. It is human nature to want order over chaos. However, when we begin to feel that those leaders aren't doing a very good job of leading, then we're going to find someone else to replace that person. And I think that is what's happening in Lord of the Flies, the boys are beginning to learn more towards Jake rather than Ralph.
DeleteIn these past chapters a reoccurring symbol is brought to the reader's attention: power. In chapter 1, there was a need for a leader who would be able to control and make all the wise decisions of the group, but in chapter two we find Ralph, the chosen leader, allowing different people to state their ideas on what they feel and not 100% on making the decisions himself. " Then I'll give him the conch...I'll give the conch to the next person to speak. He can hold it when he is speaking...And he won't be interrupted. Except by me."(33) In the context of the quote the conch symbolizes all power, once you are holding the conch no one can interrupt,except the leader. This "government" reminded me of a democracy, where everybody was able to vote for their leader and the freedom of speech, but it also reminded me of a monarchy because the final decision would finally be determined by one leader and one leader only, but Ralph self-judges himself and a sense of doubt that he can run such a large group of people to safety. Is it that once we gain such a great power,that we as humans become unsure of what are the right decisions?
ReplyDeleteThe theme of power is played up throughout this whole chapter, but I believe Ralph was not using it to his full advantage. After presenting this great idea of everyone being able to talk and share ideas with the all powerful conch, the men with status scoff at the little boy when he believes in a "beastie". Ralph even, "looked for confirmation round the ring of faces" (36). Ralph was not able to be a diplomatic leader, and instead looked for support and a laugh from the men he considered important around him. This misuse of power was shown by Golding, and I believe it may foreshadow what Ralph and Jake will turn into later. This is only the second day on the island and the power of the golden boy Ralph is depicted as is starting to get to his head, he seemsto be changing from the curious and inquisitive boy of the first day.
DeleteI started noticing in chapter 2 that Ralph starts finding a sense of leadership within himself, "All at once he found he could talk fluently and explain what he had to say."(32). I read this in a way that seemed to me that he was shocked about how he could talk fluently,and get to his point like a leader.But,when Piggy started talking Ralph,didn't seem to like this very much, and I wondered is it because he feels threatened by Piggy, after he discovers Piggy's opinions;and that he might lose his power if the kids seem to agreed more with Piggy. In society today when someone is given power, is is very rare that, that person will want to get rid of it. The majority of man wants to have a sense of control somewhere,and maintain it for as long as possible.Ralph finds this sense of authority on the island.
ReplyDeletei agree with ur perspective of Ralphs new found leadership. I think it is coming from the children giving and approving of his power and him using it wisely. Ralph is depicted in a very positive way by Golding. He is representing how man can be as a leader that benefits the people. in the discusion of Piggy, I think they all find him somewhat off putting and treat him as a lower. He is different and has imperfections and fits in to how people don't tolerate of fear outsiders.
DeleteAs I read through this chapter I saw my view of Ralph start to change. In the first chapter I viewed him as a great leader who would be able to carry this society to greatness, but I soon saw his ego and need for power get in the way. When the six year old boy started to cry from humiliation, "the assembly shouted with laughter." (35). egging the taunting on Ralph decides to, "at last Ralph induced him to hold the shell." (35). In this situation I saw Piggy become the true leader "shouting" to stand up for someone without a voice, showing compassion and screaming "Let him have the conch!" (35) when no one else believed in him. The insecurities and subpar status in the community that piggy holds makes him truly able to see what needs to be done and how to help everyone. Whereas Ralph gets carried away with getting a laugh or the approval of the "men" with status. Golding sets this up I believe to show how the power of leaders of Ralph and Jake are going to lead them to become corrupt or not helpful, much like what can happen in our society today as people search for power in any way they can. It isn't these people that have the answers, but it is the bystanders like Piggy who truly see this power exchange, and in this case tried to counter act it.
ReplyDeleteIn the first two chapters of "Lord Of The Flies," a predominant issue makes itself known. "The boys looked at each other fearfully, unbelieving. '-where is he now?' Ralph muttered the reply as if in shame. 'Perhaps he went back to the, the-'" (47). This is an issue that the children need to address. Why they just kind of let it pass and not make it their mission to find this boy is wildly shocking to me. It almost seems as if it all comes from a sort of denial or refusal to accept the circumstances that they have been placed in. To me, the instance with the missing boy represents the dismissiveness in general on the island. Yes, the boys have elected a leader and gotten a group of hunters but they still are yet to truly understand the severity of their situation. It is as if they are putting off dealing with this issue until it can no longer be put off. Most likely, subconsciously, they all feel that if they do not act like something is wrong, then things are better, but in reality, they must handle every problem they encounter, primarily the problem of being stranded, with the utmost focus.
ReplyDeleteYes I agree i also feel as though the kids are undergoing a transformation in this process of being in the island. I feel like their becoming more savage and beastlike, they are killing pigs i mean yes its for eating but they never did that before, so i think they are becoming more savage and uncivilized, maybe its the lack of parental/adult supervision? Also being that they dont like the parental/adult supervision this can be a reason why they mistreat Piggy because they see a parental caring, reasonable, and paternal figure in Piggy, and they dont need that now, they dont want it now. They want to enjoy their freedom.
DeleteAs we read on, the power struggle amongst the boys becomes more and more apparent. Clearly the head of this assembly of young boys is Ralph, but at every chance he get Jack strives to challenge that. In addition to questioning the power of Ralph, Jack also numerously shoots down Piggy whenever he tries to speak. Jacks resistance to authority shows his unwillingness to cooperate in a functioning society, even if said society only consists of a group of small boys. Even at group assemblies, Jack distances himself, and his choir from the masses, saying “I’ll split up my choir… and we’ll be responsible for keeping the fire going” (43). He makes it seem as though he and those he associates with are above the rest, and therefore is their responsibility to take on said tasks. Perhaps this is because the choir is the only thing that Jack has full control over, calling it “his choir” and barking out commands without an inkling of defiance.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree. I never really noticed Jack does call it "his Choir" I find that to be very interesting. This also makes me wonder if there is already conflict how far Jack will go till he has the power he wants. I consider this society, even though it’s small very dysfunctional as well, kind of like a dystopia.
DeleteJake, I agree that Jack seems to want more power than he has, but I don't see him necessarily challenging Ralph's power. I see him taking as much power as he possibly can while being careful not to challenge Ralph's power. I think that Jack will volunteer himself and his choir to do as much as possible in order to gain more power amongst the boys, but I don't think he is stepping on Ralph's toes, so to speak. I think Jack likes having power and he is going to utilize his control over the choir as a way to gain power, and I do agree that the choir is "the only thing that Jack has full control over". I think Jack wants to play the biggest role he can in helping Ralph lead the boys, while not actually challenge Ralph's power and perhaps putting the solidarity of the boys at risk.
DeleteIn the second chapter of "Lord of the Flies", I didn't pick up on any new major ideas/themes that weren't presented already in chapter 1. However, I do think there are things less universal than a theme that change from chapter 1 to chapter 2. In chapter 1, Piggy's character is weak, ignored, and disrespected. Although I do think the boys continue to disrespect Piggy in chapter 2, I think his voice is heard much more than in chapter 1, allowing the reader to get a better sense of who Piggy is. On page 38, when Piggy and Ralph are alone together, Piggy says "'Acting like kids!' he said scornfully. 'Acting like a crowd of kids!'". Then, when his brief conversation with Ralph is over, Goldson describes Piggy as having "the martyred expression of a parent who has to keep up with the senseless ebullience of the children". In both passages, Piggy seems to hold himself slightly superior to the group of boys, which is interesting (and could cause conflict) because the boys actually view Piggy as inferior. Piggy also refers to the boys as "kids" in a negative manner, which is odd for someone who finds himself in a society run entirely by kids, who now have to assume the roles of the grownups from the society he came from. Something else I found interesting is that when Ralph and Jack are carrying a log together, Ralph says that it is "Almost too heavy" and Jack responds "Not for the both of us". I found this passage interesting because I think it serves as a metaphor for control/leadership over the island. The log represents the burden of getting the boys rescued that Ralph carries, and Jack's response means that he is there to help Ralph lead the boys and get them rescued, and that they'll have to work together to make it happen. Could Piggy's voice be suppressed as a result of him not having any friends or people on his side? Would Piggy have more power and more of an influence on the group if he had a "Jack" of his own?
ReplyDeleteI definitely agree with you Cezar. Piggy seems to view himself as the most mature kid on the island. Coincedently, Ralph (probably the most immature) doesnt even listen to what Piggy has to say. Between Jack and Ralph, Jack takes action which means that he is a better candidate for leading the pack. I think all Piggy needs is one person to back him up and it will cause a chain reaction. However, I think he needs a "Ralph" because then he will appeal to the other children more. Do you think Ralph could ever give up his position as leader in the society, to take a chance on an outcast like Piggy?
DeleteI definitely agree with you Cezar. Piggy seems to view himself as the most mature kid on the island. Coincedently, Ralph (probably the most immature) doesnt even listen to what Piggy has to say. Between Jack and Ralph, Jack takes action which means that he is a better candidate for leading the pack. I think all Piggy needs is one person to back him up and it will cause a chain reaction. However, I think he needs a "Ralph" because then he will appeal to the other children more. Do you think Ralph could ever give up his position as leader in the society, to take a chance on an outcast like Piggy?
DeleteSomething that really stood out to me in the second chapter was when the boys are in an assembly and they are talking, and the boy with the mulberry colored birthmark starts to cry, he is given the conch to speak and says, "...Beastie.. a snake-thing. Ever so big. He saw it". (35) When i read this i connected it to the devil, a serpent represents the devil especially in this moment of these kids lives they are stranded and starting to realize that it will take a while for them to get rescued, they are scared, (the devil) father of fear. When i thought this I immediately connected the whole thing bibically, the island being Eden, the 'forbidden fruit' being the things they cannot do morally, and or physically in the island. Who would be the Jesus? would it be Piggy? who is the voice of reason in the group? At this point the boys are trying to be orderly and order themselves because now they know they have to start surviving on their own!
ReplyDeleteWhile reading the first few pages of this next chapter I saw something that reminded me of the quote I picked from the first chapter. In the first chapter I thought it would be a problem that there are no adults and it would affect the kids because they have to learn to be independent. "'There aren’t any grownups. “’We shall have to look after ourselves...and another thing. We can’t have everybody talking at once. we'll have to have 'Hands up' like at school.'"(33). this shows how already from the beginning of the book Ralph knows this will be difficult and there needs to be some order. His thoughts went from a utopia of being free with no adults and no rules to a dystopia that they all have to now survive. This also remind me of history class and the philosopher, Thomas Hobbes, that said naturally in society we need a grownup like figure to restore order within our conflicts.
ReplyDeleteI also noticed this quote while reading. It definitely showing us how Ralph is somewhat facing the reality of the situation. I think he's realized that they are all on their own, but hasn't exactly come to terms with what that really means- responsibility. His plan of action is to set up camp and have loads of fun while they can because sooner or later an adult is going to come and rescue them. He is either ignorant of the fact that they need to start thinking of a way to get home on their own or completely in denial of it.
DeleteIn this second chapter, it became really clear to me that Ralph does not know how to be a leader. He may have power, but he has no command. It's Jack who really calls all the shots, Ralph is really just his puppet since the people generally like him better. He often tries to win the crowd over with this petty little spurts, such as trying to get the fire started. He was so desperate to accomplish that one thing that would prove that he had taken initiative as a leader, that he sold out Piggy. Panicking, Ralph says "His specs- using them as burning glasses!" (40). The kids then proceed to "attack" the poor boy, grab his glasses and burn them. HAVE THEY NO SOULS?? I was purely disgusted with them when I read this part. Just because Piggy isn't as "strong" as the others, they pick on him. What really gets me is that he is the on that is actually capable of being a good leader. Piggy is rational, kind, and genuinely has the kids' (even the very little ones) best interests in mind.
ReplyDeletereading this chapter the lines ""Before I could kill it--but--next time!" Jack Slammed his knife into the a trunk and looked round challengingly."(32) stood out to me. This shows a lot about who Jack is as a character and him in comparison to Ralph. After reading this, I felt some immediate tention and threat within Jack towards the rest of the children and Ralph particularly. Here, we cans see Jack's desire to prove he is a leader to the others and to himself, while Ralph already elected the leader seems to me a more active and responsible leader so far with priority. i think that Golding is making a clear statement on power and how men search for it and how it can be beneficial and used well. There is Jack who stuggles for power but comes off as dangerous and there is Ralph who is has power and is using it to benefit the people. Ralph reflects a strong, rational leader, while Jack seems forceful and headstrong.
ReplyDeleteWhat I noticed after reading the first two chapters, is Golding's strong emphasis on the children versus the grown ups. Ralph clearly wants to take control as leader of the island and states, "This is our island. It is a good island. until the grownups come to fetch us we'll have fun." (35). But shouldnt a leader be more focused on surviving than having fun? For Ralph to be the head of the island, he will have to fill the shoes of an adult and i'm not sure that is possible. The other children on the island seem to like Ralph because he promises them fun and safety(37). To be rescued they need adults, but to have fun adults cannot be arround according to Ralph. I think as a leader Ralph, along with Jack need to prove what is more important to them. The decision will prove who is the adult and who remains the child.
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ReplyDeleteI agree with certain aspects of your analysis. I agree that because Piggy isn't as superior and is considered the "weakling" among the group, his ideas are not considered and are immediately thrown to the side. And sometimes, he has some really good ideas to bring to the table such as making a signal fire in order to increase chances of being rescued. However, this idea wasn't accepted until RALPH introduced it. However, I don't agree that Ralph is Jack's puppet. I just believe that Ralph has a more civil way of acting upon it. He follows the guidelines of society while Jack takes advantage of the fact that they are on a deserted island they can call their own and not having to follow any rules. Jack uses this to his advantage and just establishes major power for himself which comes to show the selfishness and desire of human nature.
DeleteIn the second chapter, the idea of a "Beastie" that comes out at night, brings fear to all of the boys. “He says in the morning it turned into them things like ropes in the trees and hung in the branches. He says will it come back again tonight?”. In a society, fear is a main motivator, whether it is fear of financial instability, fear of losing something you love, or any other type of fear. In Lord of the Flies, though the boys don't do much work, Ralph and Simon make huts so the boys will feel safe from the "Beastie" at night. Jack says that they should find the beast and kill it, which would bring more comfort than hiding from it. This brings up the big issue of morality. The island was the beast's home before it was the boys, so would it be moral for them to kill it, just so they can sleep peacefully at night? But, would it be moral for Ralph to deny the boys the right to feel safe, just because it would be easier to hide from the beast?
ReplyDeleteIn the second chapter, I discovered the importance of the "fire". It seems to me, as the fire symbolizes the only shred of civilization the boys are able to cling on until they are rescued from the island. Another, idea that was proposed in this chapter was an idea of a beast. Perhaps this beast represents the thirst for power and savagery that is within each individual. This savagery and power also influences the treatment between the boys. For example, Piggy is considered the "weakling" from the group, is despised because of this and doesn't maintain as much respect as the others do. For instance, when he proposed an idea that would increase the chances of the boys getting rescued by making the fire, he is ignored and the idea doesn't get recognized until Ralph himself proposes it. Ralph in this case, is the natural born leader and represents fairness and being civil. And his alternate, Jack, stands for evil, selfishness and the desire for power. Is the beast inside all or is there one particular beast they should be afraid of? Is this beast Jack?
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