"Bollocks to the rules! We're strong-we hunt! If there's a beast, we'll hunt it down! We'll close in and beat and beast and beat!" (91). I chose this sentence because it shows a split between Jack and Ralph's ideas, and how they feel about how their society should be ran. Ralph thinks that everything needs to be organized and there needs to be rules, but Jack thinks that if they can survive everything will be alright. This outburst of emotion shows how discombobulated the group is and how they've divided themselves. The whole chapter can also be looked to as the final election of who should lead the group to survival, and majority of the people seem to chose Jack. His revolt against authority and abusive actions have influenced everyone in negative ways but they're to blind to notice it. It kind of relates back to "Hills Like White Elephants", and how Jig is trying to decide the best path for her, but the American is changing her mind. The same thing with the "littluns" everything depends on who they favor and now they favor Jack. How will Ralph handle this situation knowing that Jack will lead them to death? Also, Piggy's fear of Jack is now illustrated after all these interactions between them, and this is one of the main reasons why Piggy isn't leader. Golding says, "He could go step by step inside that fat head of his, only Piggy was no chief. But Piggy, for all his ludicrous body, had brains"(85). Do you think Ralph, now realizing that Jack hates him too, is afraid of what will be?
I agree Tyrone! I really like your analogy to "Hills like White Elephants," as no one is truly getting their voice across, except for maybe Jack. I do think that Ralph, after what Piggy told him, is now a lot more afraid of Jack then he ever was. Ralph was always seen as a strong leader/role model and now that Jack brought out the inner savage in everyone, he is no more looked up to than Piggy is. It seems as if now Ralph and Piggy are the pigs, Jack's prey, and Jack is hunting them. You're right, It is really amazing how important the littluns actually are when it comes to the popularity of the cheif. They are the sheep of the group, gravitating to whomever seems the most powerful and will protect them, as right now it is Jack. I really do hope they change their mind, as I don't know how this will turn out.
I agree with you. Towards the end of the chapter you see people do drift more towards Jack now because Ralph has changed from when he was elected as chief. Jack is all about hunting, fun, and just being able to survive as an animal. He could careless if he gets saved or not. The boys don't realize that they need someone to set order and tell them what to do, just like Ralph is doing. They don't realize this because they are kids and want to have fun. They don't yet realize the seriousness of the situation and neither does the idea of being stuck on an island worry them like it worries Ralph and Piggy at this point. You can also see how Ralph is giving up on them; they seem too blind to open their eyes and deaf since they don't listen to him. Jack is making the littluns think how he thinks and you just start to hope they open their eyes and see reality.
"What I mean is...maybe it's only us." P. 89 Although this may be a small quote, it seems to me as if Simon was the first and only one to understand what the beast really symbolizes. I don't think that the beast is a physical thing, walking at night and terrorizing the littluns, but rather a metaphor. The beast could symbolize the savagery within everyone of the boys, their thirst for blood and their desire to kill and disobey the rules. When people say that they are frightened of the beast, when you think about it, they are really scared of themselves. Sunconciously, the boys may be scared to unleash this inner-beast, since it is new and unfamiliar to them, therefore, turning it into some external force. Just the fact that Simon was the first one to make this revelation, just goes to show how smart and intuitive he really is. Although he is quiet and doesn't say much, he has a deep appreciation for his surroundings and nature, hence his secret spot in the jungle, and was the only one kind enough to give some of his meat to Piggy. He does not have to assert himself as leader or talk out in assemblies a lot to show his true kindness.
Jaad, I totally agree with you! I wrote about this as well, I feel like this quote is really important to the book. Also, I agree the the beast could symbolize the savagery within all of the boys. Simon is, indeed, really smart. I wonder if later on in the book anyone else realizes that the beast is is actually them and they're frightened by each other. If they do realize that, what will they do to make the beast go away? Will they change the way they are? Or will they ignore it and continue with their violent ways?
"No. You have doctors for everything, even the inside of your mind. You don't really mean that we got to be frightened all the time of nothing? Life... is scientific, that's what it is"(84). Piggy speaks him mind during the meeting that is called when all of the littleluns are complaining about being scared and 'beasts' they believe exist in the forest. This is another moment where Piggy steps up and truly voices his opinion. I think we are beginning to see a new side of Piggy, where he is showing confidence as well as authority. Furthermore Piggy continues to side with Ralph and a few of the boys begin to acknowledge this and I think there will be a problem in the future. I believe this because yet again, Jack gets angry and almost uncontrollable, and almost starts a fight again.
I really like the quotes and points you made. Although Piggy is del monte, i think that he could eventually fill the shoes of a leader in the same way Ralph has; Piggy had given Ralph confidence and reassurance when Ralph has needed it.
“I wish my auntie was here. I wish my father… oh, what’s the use?”(94) This quote came after, a chaotic meeting of fighting, interruptions, and crying. Ralph organized the meeting to get things back in check after Jack let the fire go out, little progress had been made on the shelter, and they missed an opportunity to be rescued. Ralph had trouble as it was, maintaining order while speaking and citing his points, but once finished the meeting fell into shambles as soon as monsters and beasts became the point of discussion. During this meeting, another instance of Jack’s fleeting insanity was made apparent, when he and Ralph have an altercation, followed by Jack running off screaming. I chose this quote, as it is such an appropriate response to the whole situation. However appropriate, it is important for Ralph to refrain from thinking these thoughts, but especially voicing them, as confidence and optimism is the key to maintaining sanity.
I agree with you, this quote sums up the situation quite well. I also think that Ralph should try and play things for safe because as problems continue to occur, people will begin to loose faith in him, as the topic of him being elected as the leader continues to be mentioned. I can imagine, eventually someone saying they should have a new leader, or impeach him. That being said, I agree that Ralph should continue to be optimistic, and being optimistic is what gave Ralph his leadership role.
I agree with you. Mostly everyone on this island has lost their mind and can't function properly. They are turning into these wild animals and Ralph is turning pessimistic. This won't benefit anyone on the island because he is the chief and the liluns need someone to look up to for guidance. Many people have walked away after this meeting, and that is because of the chaos Ralph has let happen. I think he should be confident and hopeful, because without his leadership, people are going to fight for his spot again and this might bring even more chaos. He should stay strong like he did from the start.
"'Maybe,' he said hesitantly, 'maybe there is a beast' (...) 'what I mean is . . . maybe it's only us'" (89).
This line stood out to me because out of every one the island Simon was the only one who has blame himself and the rest of the boys for the beast and not an animal or a nightmare that a littlun has had. I feel like Simon considers each and everyone of them the beast because of how everyone is acting. For example, Jack who only focuses on the idea of killing and hunting pigs just to do it, it's not even for meat anymore. Or all the boys who just argue and point fingers at each other for what is and isn't happening. A beast is a large and dangerous animal and I feel like that's what Simon characterizes all of them as. They are becoming savage, rude, harsh, and even dangerous to each other. Even later on in the chapter Piggy kind of supports the idea Simon has brought up of them being the beast by saying, "what are we?" (91). They don't even recognize who and what they are anymore which supports how they are fitting the name of "the beast." They are losing control of who they are and it is not benefiting anyone. When they say they fear the beast, they are really fearing who they are becoming; they're fearing themselves and that's what's scaring them the most.
This chapter has been one of my favorites so far because we can really see the group separating under Ralph’s power. There is Ralph a law enforcer that is trying to help keep the group as civilized as possible in the hopes of getting rescued; and their Jack, a boy who wouldn’t mind staying a hunter on the island with a very limited number of rules. The quote that stood out to me the most was, “Jack was the first to make himself heard. He had not got the conch and thus spoke against the rules; but nobody minded.” (87) The conch is the only thing that really offers any sense of law and order among the children. We see here that Jack is disobeying the law and is the only one to do so. This quickly points out that Jack has enough power and confidence that he can and will disobey the law whenever he pleases. We also see not one boy stands up to Jack and tells him to follow the rules. This indicates that others don’t like the rules either. Until this stops, the boys may start to side with Jack based on the idea that life with him in charge is more fun and the fact that he carries a lot of power. If others follow in Jack’s footsteps, the island will fill with anarchy.
I agree on what you are saying Jake. Jack is going to be the new symbol for power because he is strong enough to speak out without the conch and break the rule and he is able to do it without anybody cutting him off. If jack has the power to take over and become Chief he will attract the other kids to follow him because he will have rules that they like or not have any rules at all. But i think people are going to start to side with Jack also.
I also agree with you because it seems that the boys continue to take Jack's side. Like in this chapter, when he says "Bollocks to the rules...," the boys were filled with joy and excitement as if he took the words right out of their mouths. Jack and the boys clearly don't like nor respect the rules provided by Ralph because instead of watching over the fire, gathering drinking water, building shelters, and using the bathroom area, they just go off and have fun or hunt. I feel that if this continues, Jack will become the leader and Ralph will be on his own with his small group.
"If Jack was chief he'd have all hunting and no fire. We'd be here till we died... He hates me. i dunno why. If he could do what he wanted"(93).
In this chapter it mostly talks about how Ralph can not handle the pressure anymore and a really small revolt is taken place. Ralph has the conch and he has the opportunity to blow the conch and get the hunters and little-luns attention, but he decides not too and he just gives up. We were talking about before how being in a new location or habitat can have a positive feeling at first, but eventually it would end up impacting them in a negative way. When Jack broke the rules, that was the final straw for Ralph and he could not handle it anymore and he just gave up. Him giving up symbolizes his weakness that he is getting from being on this island and that effects piggy too. piggy was able to stand up to Jack because he had Ralph as chief to protect him, but from now on its going to be different and piggy is going to be a constant target and he is going to get singled out by Jack. Piggy says what he says about if Jack becomes leader they will die and he is just saying that because he is scared of Jack and Jack's followers will survive with Jack but Piggy will fall because he does not do what Jack does. Only the Hunters will survive!
Simren, I kind of get what you're saying and I somewhat agree. But don't you think there is a more sympathetic view towards Ralph? Do you think he could have done anything to prevent your prophecy of "Hunters will survive!"? I agree with you, that is a possible situation, but why? Ralph can't control this group of immature kids. It wouldn't be problem if it were just the littluns, but Ralph has to deal with the immature biguns like Jack. Jack is powerful, but in the wrong way.
What both Simren and Teddy say resonate with me, but I don't believe there is a right or wrong in this situation. None of the boys are actually more or less mature than any of the others, they just show it in different ways. Ralph certainly might have more on his plate because of the immaturity of the rest of the group, but he also displays his own immaturity in his lack of willingness to split his leadership with Jack. His self-righteousness and constant belief that his "way" is the "right and only way" is a type of immaturity that often gets overlooked because everyone embodies that to some degree. Jack's immaturity presents itself more violently, which can also mean that it seems more obvious, but really he is on equal terms with Ralph. He could also be seen as more mature, even, because to be mature, which usually means to behave as an adult would, is not always synonymous to doing the right thing. Often, in fact, adults conduct their behavior almost exactly like Jack (albeit with less actual bloodshed) due to the personally advancing nature of his actions. I consider the dynamic of and between Ralph and Jack more of a Venn Diagram, for lack of a better term, than two entirely separate states of being.
On page 89 Simon quotes, “What I mean is…maybe it’s only us”. This quote really stood out to me because Simon is the kindest out of all of the boys and he has a pure heart while the other choir boys are cruel. He’s always helping others and trying to ease their pain somehow. Simon's statement about the beast shows that he believes that the beast is not a ghost or an animal instead he considers that the beast resides in them. All the boys have the beast in them, and they are ultimately frightened by each other. Even I believe that the boys themselves are the '’beast’’, because from what we have read so far, they are capable of hurting and killing things just to satisfy their own needs. The boys are starting to become uncivilized, and they’re becoming more savage as time is passing on in the island. In conclusion, I think the beast is not a physical beast, meaning it’s not an animal or a ghost; however it is a metaphorical beast. Simon was the first one to realize this; I wonder who’s going to be the next one. I think it will be either Piggy or Ralph because they are the only ones beside Simon who haven’t lost their grip on reality.
"If I blow the conch and they don't come back; then we've had it. We shan't keep the fire going. We'll be like animals. We'll never be rescued" (pg 92).
This quote stood out to me because Jack was afraid that if he blew the conch, the boys would have ignored him. The conch symbolizes order and if there is no order, then there is nothing left to have them brought together. The conch's job is to bring everyone together as a civilization to, be heard, and discuss rules. Once the conch fails to do its job, it will no longer have the power to bring them and hold them together. If the boys don't come together then their chances of being rescued and saved will be scarce. I feel that the boys need to set up and start working together as a team because if they won't they'll never get off the island as they desire.
I agree. Ralph does not blow the conch because he is afraid of the truth, which is that Jack and the others are becoming true savages. I think Ralph sums it up well when he says, “the rules are the only thing we’ve got!” (91). What is their civilization without the island’s rules? I also agree with you that the boys need to start working as a real team. I hope everyone will start to really help out, but I do not think it will happen. Chapter 5 is the beginning of the end. Everyone’s inner evil human traits are starting to show, and there will be no stopping them. Is there a way to stop this savageness from happening? Will people start thinking like Piggy and Ralph do? I believe there is a way to order again, but Jack is blinding everyone into his main notion of hunting.
I agree with you teamwork needs to be a priority among the boys, however I think it was Ralph who held the conch at this time not Jack. The boys are enjoying themselves to much and getting careless, which leaves Ralph and a few others to do the work that is supposed to be divided among each other equally.
“‘…maybe there is a beast.’ ‘…maybe it’s only us.’” (89). Simon’s theory is shocking to everyone because no one has thought of this idea. But he is completely right. There are no beasts, snakes, or ghosts. People are not afraid of these creatures; they are instead afraid of fear itself. This fear of fear is what causes the collapse of the island’s civilization. Jack takes advantage of the fear by leading everyone to go out and hunt their fear, or the “beast”. It is easier to follow Jack because it feels safer and just for everyone to do so. In a sense, Jack is the beast because he is the one who is causing the collapse of the island’s order. Jack’s actions influence everyone else, eventually leading to a savage society. In the end, everyone will be a beast at heart. Is there a fear in every society? Is everyone afraid of becoming savage, and letting their human characteristic of evil out?
I completely agree. This specific quote was also very shocking to me. Their is no "creature", the boys just try to convince themselves their is one in order to ease their fear in themselves. Deep down they want to go home to the civilized world they were once used to. However, they see themselves slowly changing into animals and beasts and fear the people they will soon become.
I agree with your theory of how the boy's are afraid of fear itself. But, to add on to your theory my own interpretation of the quote was the beast is the whole group of boys itself not just Jack. The word beast has a negative connotation of dangerous, harmful and untamed. Characteristics of what the boys have become. And how this "beast" is not only destroying the island but, their own little society.
I agree with your theory of the boys not being scared of a specific thing/creature, and that, actually they are more in fear of fear itself. I feel as though the boys are making this creature up/ going along with the idea that there is indeed somekind of creature, though we all know, and they know, there is really no monster among them. Also, i agree with you Julissa, on how the boys have similar characteristics that monsters have - I thought that was a really good point you made.
"'The rules!' shouted ralph 'you're breaking the rules!'" Ralph is shouting this Jack, at this point I am getting bored of reading how ignorant Jack is, he is so full of himself, now more than ever since he finally killed a pig. He needs to calm down because he is not the first person in the history of the world to do so, that being said he needs to stop. Not only is he disrespecting Ralph he is showing the rest of the group that its ok to not follow the rules and that you can do whatever you want. I feel that the reason he does this is because whatever happens its on Ralph because Ralph is in charge, but I feel that if he were in charge he would not allow anyone to disrespect him, or disobey the rules he has made.
I agree!! I think that Jack is really full of himself, like I get the feel that he doesn't really care about anyone but himself sometimes. He just needs to sit down and see that they are all in this together, no matter what happens because all they have is each other.
It was really hard to pick a quote this time around because there were many things that were confusing/interesting. I decided to choose the end of the chapter where they talk about what grownups would do: "'They wouldn't quarrel-' 'Or Break my specs-' 'Or talk about a beast-'" (94). Now my main question here is why? What is the distinct difference between children and grownups, besides obvious characteristics? Why would the characters believe grown ups can handle anything? The only thing I can think of, is they each see differently. When I say "see" I mean the way we interpret the world. Percival and the other littluns see beasties, while grownups would understand it could very well be something else, possibly even some of the biguns too like Ralph and Piggy. Children don't have enough experience in life so they have to create their own little world or interpretation to fill in the blanks. The littluns in the story created this beastie in their minds. It is the same as if a little kid pretends a pencil is a sword when playing. It is imagination and sometimes it isn't for the good. Too bad for Ralph and Piggy, most of the children on the island aren't past this stage of false creation. This is turning out to be more of a coming of age story than I thought. My question is when is this transition to a more mature self, and why?
Interesting, but I disagree. I don't think that this is turning into a story about coming of age, I think it is turning more and more into a metaphor of civilization. At first when the boys come onto the island they are entranced and excited, there are no grownups! There is a pool! There is fruit! This would be equivalent to a new government being founded with a revolutionary new idea, and this idea brings tons of new people in, and they think it's great. There might even be gaping wholes in the idea behind the entire civilization, but the people ignore it, at first. Then when everything settles down people start to see the problems, and new problems are created. Everyone starts to panic, and this is where we are now in the story. The boys are starting to realize that the island isn't so great, there are no parents, there is a beast lurking around, and most significantly everyone is starting to crazy.
"Simon's effort fell about him in ruins; the laughter beat him cruelly and he shrank away defenseless to his seat." (89)
Laughter in this book is key. Laughter is used in many ways. In this chapter it is used, primarily, out of fear or nervousness. The boys, even though some wont admit it, are terrified at the prospect of a beast. Their laughter is comforting and it makes them feel like a cohesive group, which is in no way what they are. There is a similar attitude from the people in "The Lottery", they know that the situation they are in is weird, frightening, and confused but they still partake in the ritual. The ritual is the only thing they have, it's the only way that these people don't let everything fall into chaos. I think of laughter in this book as glue, when a frightening topic is being discussed and things are starting to fall apart, they laugh to bring everything back together. Simon starts to talk about a disturbing prospect and they boys start to laugh, because they don't want to hear about it.
"'We're all drifting and things are going rotten. At home there was always a grown up. Please, sir; please, miss; and then you got an answer. How I wish!'"(94) I think this line does a great job of showing Ralph's exasperation at having to be the leader. I can kind of feel for him, because it's hard to keep a lot of young kids under control, especially when something is there to easily distract them from their necessary duties. Ralph feels like he can't use his authority, and he can't possibly compete with the adults back home who could really control these kids. Ralph is only six years older at most than these kids, and they can't bring themselves to not relate to him as a fellow kid. Sometimes it's hard to take people close to your age seriously, but why haven't they caught on that the need for his authority is apparent?
“Exposure to the air had bleached the yellow and pink to near white and transparency.” (78) When I read this quote I automatically made a connection between the conch and the boys on the island, I saw the conch changing color as somewhat of a symbol of the boys changing. The conch is changing due to the air and I feel the boys are changing due to the island itself. Throughout the book it is evident to see that as soon as they stepped on the island up until this point the boys have been going through changes, changes in behavior, changes in personality and changes in point of view. Also, I remember in one of our class discussions, Marta stated that pink represents hope, and I feel now that the conch is fading into more a white/transparent color, I feel like not only are the boys loosing hope of being rescued, or maybe, Golding is trying to say that there may not even be hope left for the boys – and they just may never get rescued. In the book, the conch has always represented power – the way it would be blown and all the boys would follow the call of it, or how the boys often fight over it, for that right to talk; maybe Golding is trying to express the boys are losing that sense of power – now that the conch is transparent ( you can see through it ), I feel that’s how the power is among the boys – its transparent, you can see right through it.
I completely agree that the conch loosing color symbolizes that collapse of order. There is also another part in this chapter where Jack talks without the conch and no one corrects him or tries to stop him, this very clearly shows that the conch is loosing power. The idea of the color changing reflecting the group is also very interesting because white is the color of surrender. This could mean surrender to the island, to primitiveness, and to Jack.
While reading what you thought it also made me think about how there innocence s fading as well. Pink on the conch can it be thought to be innocence. When you are young or when your born all your skin is pink and full of many years to come. Here all tht seems to be dwindling slowly. The boys maybe losing the innocence because they have to think about all the problems they are facing instead of living happy lives.
While ready your thoughts I also started to believe that the boys are losing there innocence. The conch loses it pink also represents this, when a baby is just born there a pink and with many years to come. The boys are becoming the opposite of that because they are focused with situation much bigger then them selves they have to make adult desisons. This also mean that there is no law or rule because the conch which symbolizes the order of the boys is becoming transparent and worthless.
"If I blow the conch and they don't come back;then we've had it. We shan't keep the fire going. We'll be like animals. We'll never be rescued."(102)
This quote stood out to me because of the change Ralph has experienced on this island. During the beginning he was very confident about getting out of here and being rescued. On page 9 he quotes "I could swim when I was five. Daddy taught me. He's a commander in the Navy. When he gets leave he'll come and rescue us", this was at the beginning of the book and Ralph didn't expect for things to get this horrendous. He gave up on trying to be the hopeful chief and gave up because everyone has become savage. I think that if people don't start acting civilized and listening to each other, they aren't to advance in any way of ideas to get off the island. The society has become chaotic because of the lack of leadership Ralph has shown now, instead of being the same from the start with full of confidence.
I would say that Ralph has been brought back to reality in this chapter-his serious demeanor, which was mentioned several times on pages 102, shows that he is realizing that the group is falling apart. I thought that this falling out was almost inevitable, but Ralph and some of the others did seem to believe in the power of their group for some time. Ralph and a few others, Piggy, for example, act as if they are surprised when all of the kids break into chaos frequently throughout and after their meetings. Now, Ralph is struggling to deal with the reality that the group may never get back together.
"Only, decided Ralph as he faced the chief's seat, I can't think. Not like Piggy." (78) At this scene in the book it is showing how the pressures of being chief is really getting to Ralph. He is kind of second guesses himself on how he thinks through thing relating to his chief status, and feeling that he should do it more like how Piggy would. Also it's like Ralph is finally realizing how bad their situation is really becoming because later in the chapter he discusses the conditions in which the island is kept,the fire, and water, the important things that are needed to survive on this island.
I think that with Ralph's new realization about their bad situation he also realizes that he is not as much of a leader as he thought he was. He backs up this point because in the end he doesn't want to blow the conch because he knows the boys won't return. He doesn't want to show he is weak if he can avoid it. Ralph wants to hold on to his power and to order for as long as possible, before all the boys become savages.
"That was why the place looked so different. Normally...But now the sun was slanting in at one side, so that the shadows were where they ought to be." Page 104
I thought that this was an interesting quote because it seemed to be full of metaphorical meaning to me. The way that Golding describes the assembly area as "different" shows how the nature of the group has changed. They are no longer unified by one leader (Ralph), but broken apart into a few different and opposing groups. They do not have the same ability to communicate and act cohesively that they did before, so it only makes sense that the place where they had their meetings, one of the few important aspects of their society, is now "different". In addition, the way that Golding writes how the "shadows were where they ought to be" may be saying something about how the group was never really able to be unified by Ralph--perhaps the group's decay was unavoidable. This may be part of a message Golding is sending to the reader about human nature, how we are naturally inclined to rival with each other in an attempt to gain power.
"He found himself understanding the wearisomeness of this life, where every path was an improvisation and a considerable part of one's waking life was spent watching one's feet" (76)
This quote was really interesting to me because it is showing how Ralph is tiered of having to think for himself. In society everything is already laid out for us, because of the rules and laws and luxuries of society people don't have to think about what they are doing. Or whether it is worth doing. This quote shows how for the first time , the boys are must really think about what they are doing or "where they are stepping" because their actions have huge consequences. because they have not experienced those consequences yet I don't think any of them except for Ralph, Piggy and Simone realize the significance of what they are doing and what they must do.
I agree with the idea that Ralph is truly realizing the significance of his position, but I don't see it as the luxuries being already laid out. I see it as Ralph realizing the heavy responsibility he has as chief, and the huge impact and power he has through decision making. This is displayed in teh way he plans out the meeting point by point, and it seems that rather than being tired of thinking for himself he is taking initiative and using this need to think for himself to better the community adn share his ideas.
"The world, that understandable and lawful world, was slipping away. Once there was this and that; and now— and the ship had gone," (84).
This quote is really significant because it shows that the boys have lost their grip on reality. When it states that "the ship had gone" I think that the ship was a metaphor for reality and order, which is now gone. Throughout the chapter the boys keep getting chaotic and there is a lot of arguing. At the end of the Chapter after all the boys, other than Piggy, Ralph, and Simon, have run off, Piggy and Simon urge Ralph to blow the conch and bring the boys back. However, Ralph refuses because he doesn't think the boys will come back and this shows that he has weakness as a leader. This shows that Ralph knows that order is slipping away. "The world, that understandable and lawful world," is saying that life as the boys knew it is gone and that order and law have been replaced with savage and blood-thirsty boys.
I completely understand what you mean. Originally, the boys set up certain systems and living guidelines that have withered away with time. Most fo the boys are used to this and accept it, but Ralph is annoyed at the fact that everyone else so readily gives up. I think that when the 'ship' leaves, they not only lose all hope for rescue, but also lose all hope for working together as a unit.
"If you are scared of someone you hate him but you can't stop thinking about him. You kid yourself he's all right really, an' then when you see him again, it's like asthma an' you can't breathe." (p. 93) I think that by saying this, Piggy is trying to convey to Ralph how awful he feels living on an island where you are aware of just how much everyone dislikes you. Fear plays such a large role in this story. It forces the boys to make decisions about things they would rather leave unanswered, like with the beast. Even though Piggy and Simon aren't exactly sure of whether or not they believe in the ghost, they take Jack's side simply because he scares them and makes them want to do right by him. Fear causes us to change our perspective on certain things in order to favor the side you would least expect. I think Piggy adds the part about not being able to breathe because it shows just how much stress he is actually under. He is afraid that any wrong move will get him kicked off the island, or worse. Piggy has no idea what the other boys, especially Jack, could do to him, so he wants to play it safe.
I totally agree with you. From the beginning of the story Piggy has wanted a sense of security. He knows his Auntie isn't around to take care of him anymore so he realizes on the order and good leadership of the boys on the island. Also, from the first moment that he set eyes on him, Piggy has been intimidated by Jack. The fact that Jack had the nerve to punch Piggy in the last chapter probably scares Piggy even more. He has no idea if he could do anything worse to him.
“Last night I had a dream, a horrid dream, fighting with things. I was outside the shelter by myself fighting with things.”(84) I picked this quote because, it gave a different perspective of a character that mostly goes unheard throughout the book, which is the Littluns. Throughout the book the littluns are treated poorly or unfairly from the older boys and they don’t have a chance to voice their own opinion or share an idea that might benefit the group. But, this quote that Phil had said has a symbolic message on how the group of itself is deteriorating and how everyone is standing on their own. The line “Fighting with things” could represent that the boys are battling with their own fears such as never escaping the island could turn into a reality. And, “Shelter by myself” could mean that the littluns and the older boys don’t feel protected from one to another to the outbreak of violence and savagery that is happening the island. That could risk the life of anyone.
"Because the rules are the only thing we've got!" (101). This quote stood out to me because it conveys Ralph's desperation for normalcy. As he discusses later, he longs for the order and discipline of adults and despises the chaos that ensues among the boys. The rules are the only thing tying Ralph to the adult world and to his old life. I found it interesting how Jack is becoming increasingly popular among the boys because of his more wild and savage way of leading. The boys do not understand that although Ralph's way of leading may seem boring compared to Jack's, it will in the end be more effective. Jack and Ralph's power struggle is represented in the pig vs. the fire. Killing pigs (Jack) will give them instant gratification, but it will not help them be rescued. Keeping the fire going is a longer process, but in the end it will help them the most.
I agree that the children are drawn to the idea of quicker results something that they can find with Jack and the pigs rather than the slower result of the fire and Ralph. I also think that the children get angry at the person who brings the bad news. If it had been Jack who summoned the wake up call they may have reacted differently. They are still too young to think about the negative aspects of a life without the same rules they already had in place before they dive directly into it. I think this quote also connects back to the idea that they are the most afraid of themselves because Ralph is afraid of nothing more than a society that is in complete chaos. A direction they seem to be heading in, unless Ralph finds a way to miraculously reign the others in.
"'Who cares?' Ralph summoned his wits. 'Because the rules are the only thing we've got!'" (91) This quote stuck out to me because it shows the root of the problems not only in this society but in societies all around the real world. These children rest upon the rules for a source of security and assurance so that when they are lost the island turns into a place of chaos. When Ralph says these words they are quickly forgotten because Jack has no interest in what he had to say in that moment but the importance of these words coming from the leader should not be underestimated. These children are afraid and unsure of so much but the rules are something that will always be steadfast and in place. Without these guidelines the children move around aimlessly attempting to find ways to cope with their fear and homesickness. This is also shown in the real world through the actions of societies without a set of proper rules and guidelines. People need something to obey because without it they restort to the very ideas that the children are resorting to on the island. Laws are an imperative part to a properly flowing society and community because people are unable to function without them. The children on the island have been inching towards this point of chaos since the very initiation of Ralph as leader, it is only a matter of time before these children start to jockey for power among Jack and Ralph.
"'Maybe there is a beast....maybe it's only us.'" Chapter 5, pg. 80
This quote really stood out to me because it describes the human condition. In connection, it relates back to when the fire gets out of control. The boys talked about the littleun' that went missing, and said that it might have been the beastie. This is symbolic for the beast inside all of the boys, for starting the fire and killing the boy.
After the meeting breaks up and becomes chaotic, with all of the boys except Piggy, Ralph and Simon, having run off into a group, chanting and dancing, Ralph, Piggy and Simon see that "Percival Wemys Madison, of the Vicarage, Harcourt St. Anthony, lying in the long grass, was living through circumstances in which the incantation of his address was powerless to help him" (94). A little while earlier in the story Percival is called out to speak about the 'beast', but is so overwhelmed with the pressure that he ends up reciting his name and address, and drifting off to sleep. This is a very weird instance in the book. This quote highlights the importance of this moment, when things have reached utter chaos, to the point at which the conch is denied power, and the rules hold no meaning. This is shown by the fact that Percival's address, a connection to civilization and order, has no power. The fact that is says Percival was 'living through' this moment at which his address has no power suggests that at every other moment i his life, his name and address fit as a piece into society, and now they have no such power, and a re just a remnant of his past experience.
"We have lots of assemblies. Everybody enjoys speaking and being together. We decide things. But they don't get done." (79)
This quote made me really happy. In my previous blog post on chapter 4 I talked about how Ralph is starting to take initiative after the fire incident. I hoped that he would continue to be this way, and he is! Ralph is starting to see the big flaws in their new society and is starting to take action against these things. On the page before the narrator was explaining how quickly everyone was heading to the meeting: They didn't want to get Ralph as angry as he was when the fire went out. A little later in the chapter he talks about the importance of the fire. He's learning from the mistakes he made when he was more relaxed, and I would like to applaud Ralph on his leadership.
I agree that Ralph is trying to change the flaws in their society because he wants to be looked at as a powerful leader. Many of the boys support Ralph and his ways; however, in my blog post I argued how he was loosing respect of some of the boys. I think that he was so hurt by loosing respect, which is why he initially was going to step down. I think that Golding displays the boys with supporting Ralph and his orders, but not all of them at the same time respect him. Usually I think of those two things as similar, with one you have the other, but in this case I don’t know if that is true. I think that Jack has such a strong influence on Ralph, and he causes Ralph to look down on himself. In the beginning they were alike in many more ways then they are now. Jack is trying to take Ralph’s power away from him because he is jealous. I think that they are such opposites; it would not be good if Jack came in and took over their society. Jack now has such a free spirit and I think he would get caught up in the power, and let people do whatever they want to some extent, while Ralph is really trying to insure safety for everyone and has the goal of getting them rescued.
I agree with you that there is progress when looking at Ralph and his ways but do you really think he is doing his rethinking because he is just noticing the flaws or is it because an event changed his feelings. In my post, I shared the topic of recognition with you but I feel that he is not just suddenly feeling good hearted, I feel that its really him just trying to not lose the tug of war that Jack and him created the moment the elected leader. We will have to see how this plays out but I don't feel that his change is for the right reason
“There was a sound of a brief tussle and the conch moved to and fro. “You gimme that conch back!” Ralph pushed between them and got a thump o the chest. He wrestled the conch from someone and sat down breathlessly.” (90).
I thought this quote expressed how their little society has changed from its start. In the beginning, everyone listened to Ralph and gave him respect. No one felt like they could revolt. I think that this could have been because of fear, a fear that can be comforted by someone with the right power. The children felt Ralph had this power, so they relied on him to make everything okay. Now, they have gotten to know Ralph a little more, and his ways of ruling, and this caused them to loose respect for him. They are not afraid to speak out of terms, when before it was un-thought of to speak at a meeting without the conch. I think that if Ralph set himself as the type of leader who was feared by most, but still respected and looked up to, he could have sustained power in a structural way. I think this could have worked especially with these kids, because they are always so scared of what the grownups would think, and if Ralph displayed himself as a grownup, they would then be somewhat scared of him and try to please him while not breaking his orders.
"Fat lot of good we are," said Ralph. "three blind mice. I'll give up" "If you give up" said Piggy, in an appalled whisper, "what'd happen to me?" (93)
This passage from the reading verifies my worries for the boys. In this scene, Ralph is fighting with Jack about the rules of the assembly and various issues that in Ralph's eyes need to be regulated. In this scene Ralph is referring himself, piggy, and simon as the three blind mice implying that they have no idea what they are doing, therefore blind. Ralph sees this as being ironic because they are the three trying to do the best acts to benefit the group as a whole. I feel that the roles are changing a lot throughout the story, starting with total dominance to now mixed and I'm predicting a shift to total dominance once again with jack being in charge. The fact that Ralph sees him only truly having two followers shows the fate of everyone on the island. Like in my last blog post, Im making an educated guess that the groups will divide into two different conglomerates of children causing tension on the island that is already existent. I feel since Ralph is falling off his throne, he's starting to realize that the things Piggy and Simon were saying are the most important. I feel that Ralph has put aside his feud with Jack to see the thrush. Its a real struggle.
"the thing is-fear cant hurt you anymore that a dream. there arent anybeast to be afraid of on this island." this quote to me is very confusing. if a person dreams of something there doing on there own. then he can cause his own reality through the dream.this then would mean fear can hurt. you can harm yourself by what is with you. this may not make much sense but, the beast that they are all scared may just be in them selves.
The beginning of your response confused me a bit, but when saying that the beast they fear is in themselves i agree with you. They have become so power hungry that they are slowly starting to turn against each other- forgetting their first goal: to survive until they are rescued. Of course, they are trying to survive, but their behavior has changed drastically in a way that has left them as savages. Them becoming savages has completely left their original selves lost.
"Maybe there is a beast... What I mean is... Maybe its only us?" (89) When reading this quote- my heart jumped a little. I think it really adds to the suspense in the novel. I think he refers to the group, saying that they are becoming their own enemy. When a factor as great as power is involved, we do what we can to grasp it, and once we have that power all we do is crave more of it. After living all on their own for so long, they have forgotten what it is like to live in a real civilization. They are becoming complete power hungry savages- and Simon is the only one realizing it.
"Bollocks to the rules! We're strong-we hunt! If there's a beast, we'll hunt it down! We'll close in and beat and beast and beat!" (91).
ReplyDeleteI chose this sentence because it shows a split between Jack and Ralph's ideas, and how they feel about how their society should be ran. Ralph thinks that everything needs to be organized and there needs to be rules, but Jack thinks that if they can survive everything will be alright. This outburst of emotion shows how discombobulated the group is and how they've divided themselves. The whole chapter can also be looked to as the final election of who should lead the group to survival, and majority of the people seem to chose Jack. His revolt against authority and abusive actions have influenced everyone in negative ways but they're to blind to notice it. It kind of relates back to "Hills Like White Elephants", and how Jig is trying to decide the best path for her, but the American is changing her mind. The same thing with the "littluns" everything depends on who they favor and now they favor Jack. How will Ralph handle this situation knowing that Jack will lead them to death? Also, Piggy's fear of Jack is now illustrated after all these interactions between them, and this is one of the main reasons why Piggy isn't leader. Golding says, "He could go step by step inside that fat head of his, only Piggy was no chief. But Piggy, for all his ludicrous body, had brains"(85). Do you think Ralph, now realizing that Jack hates him too, is afraid of what will be?
I agree Tyrone! I really like your analogy to "Hills like White Elephants," as no one is truly getting their voice across, except for maybe Jack. I do think that Ralph, after what Piggy told him, is now a lot more afraid of Jack then he ever was. Ralph was always seen as a strong leader/role model and now that Jack brought out the inner savage in everyone, he is no more looked up to than Piggy is. It seems as if now Ralph and Piggy are the pigs, Jack's prey, and Jack is hunting them. You're right, It is really amazing how important the littluns actually are when it comes to the popularity of the cheif. They are the sheep of the group, gravitating to whomever seems the most powerful and will protect them, as right now it is Jack. I really do hope they change their mind, as I don't know how this will turn out.
DeleteI agree with you. Towards the end of the chapter you see people do drift more towards Jack now because Ralph has changed from when he was elected as chief. Jack is all about hunting, fun, and just being able to survive as an animal. He could careless if he gets saved or not. The boys don't realize that they need someone to set order and tell them what to do, just like Ralph is doing. They don't realize this because they are kids and want to have fun. They don't yet realize the seriousness of the situation and neither does the idea of being stuck on an island worry them like it worries Ralph and Piggy at this point. You can also see how Ralph is giving up on them; they seem too blind to open their eyes and deaf since they don't listen to him. Jack is making the littluns think how he thinks and you just start to hope they open their eyes and see reality.
Delete"What I mean is...maybe it's only us." P. 89
ReplyDeleteAlthough this may be a small quote, it seems to me as if Simon was the first and only one to understand what the beast really symbolizes. I don't think that the beast is a physical thing, walking at night and terrorizing the littluns, but rather a metaphor. The beast could symbolize the savagery within everyone of the boys, their thirst for blood and their desire to kill and disobey the rules. When people say that they are frightened of the beast, when you think about it, they are really scared of themselves. Sunconciously, the boys may be scared to unleash this inner-beast, since it is new and unfamiliar to them, therefore, turning it into some external force. Just the fact that Simon was the first one to make this revelation, just goes to show how smart and intuitive he really is. Although he is quiet and doesn't say much, he has a deep appreciation for his surroundings and nature, hence his secret spot in the jungle, and was the only one kind enough to give some of his meat to Piggy. He does not have to assert himself as leader or talk out in assemblies a lot to show his true kindness.
Jaad, I totally agree with you! I wrote about this as well, I feel like this quote is really important to the book. Also, I agree the the beast could symbolize the savagery within all of the boys. Simon is, indeed, really smart. I wonder if later on in the book anyone else realizes that the beast is is actually them and they're frightened by each other. If they do realize that, what will they do to make the beast go away? Will they change the way they are? Or will they ignore it and continue with their violent ways?
Delete"No. You have doctors for everything, even the inside of your mind. You don't really mean that we got to be frightened all the time of nothing? Life... is scientific, that's what it is"(84). Piggy speaks him mind during the meeting that is called when all of the littleluns are complaining about being scared and 'beasts' they believe exist in the forest. This is another moment where Piggy steps up and truly voices his opinion. I think we are beginning to see a new side of Piggy, where he is showing confidence as well as authority. Furthermore Piggy continues to side with Ralph and a few of the boys begin to acknowledge this and I think there will be a problem in the future. I believe this because yet again, Jack gets angry and almost uncontrollable, and almost starts a fight again.
ReplyDeleteI really like the quotes and points you made. Although Piggy is del monte, i think that he could eventually fill the shoes of a leader in the same way Ralph has; Piggy had given Ralph confidence and reassurance when Ralph has needed it.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete“I wish my auntie was here. I wish my father… oh, what’s the use?”(94)
ReplyDeleteThis quote came after, a chaotic meeting of fighting, interruptions, and crying. Ralph organized the meeting to get things back in check after Jack let the fire go out, little progress had been made on the shelter, and they missed an opportunity to be rescued. Ralph had trouble as it was, maintaining order while speaking and citing his points, but once finished the meeting fell into shambles as soon as monsters and beasts became the point of discussion. During this meeting, another instance of Jack’s fleeting insanity was made apparent, when he and Ralph have an altercation, followed by Jack running off screaming. I chose this quote, as it is such an appropriate response to the whole situation. However appropriate, it is important for Ralph to refrain from thinking these thoughts, but especially voicing them, as confidence and optimism is the key to maintaining sanity.
I agree with you, this quote sums up the situation quite well. I also think that Ralph should try and play things for safe because as problems continue to occur, people will begin to loose faith in him, as the topic of him being elected as the leader continues to be mentioned. I can imagine, eventually someone saying they should have a new leader, or impeach him. That being said, I agree that Ralph should continue to be optimistic, and being optimistic is what gave Ralph his leadership role.
DeleteI agree with you. Mostly everyone on this island has lost their mind and can't function properly. They are turning into these wild animals and Ralph is turning pessimistic. This won't benefit anyone on the island because he is the chief and the liluns need someone to look up to for guidance. Many people have walked away after this meeting, and that is because of the chaos Ralph has let happen. I think he should be confident and hopeful, because without his leadership, people are going to fight for his spot again and this might bring even more chaos. He should stay strong like he did from the start.
Delete"'Maybe,' he said hesitantly, 'maybe there is a beast' (...) 'what I mean is . . . maybe it's only us'" (89).
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me because out of every one the island Simon was the only one who has blame himself and the rest of the boys for the beast and not an animal or a nightmare that a littlun has had. I feel like Simon considers each and everyone of them the beast because of how everyone is acting. For example, Jack who only focuses on the idea of killing and hunting pigs just to do it, it's not even for meat anymore. Or all the boys who just argue and point fingers at each other for what is and isn't happening. A beast is a large and dangerous animal and I feel like that's what Simon characterizes all of them as. They are becoming savage, rude, harsh, and even dangerous to each other. Even later on in the chapter Piggy kind of supports the idea Simon has brought up of them being the beast by saying, "what are we?" (91). They don't even recognize who and what they are anymore which supports how they are fitting the name of "the beast." They are losing control of who they are and it is not benefiting anyone. When they say they fear the beast, they are really fearing who they are becoming; they're fearing themselves and that's what's scaring them the most.
This chapter has been one of my favorites so far because we can really see the group separating under Ralph’s power. There is Ralph a law enforcer that is trying to help keep the group as civilized as possible in the hopes of getting rescued; and their Jack, a boy who wouldn’t mind staying a hunter on the island with a very limited number of rules. The quote that stood out to me the most was, “Jack was the first to make himself heard. He had not got the conch and thus spoke against the rules; but nobody minded.” (87) The conch is the only thing that really offers any sense of law and order among the children. We see here that Jack is disobeying the law and is the only one to do so. This quickly points out that Jack has enough power and confidence that he can and will disobey the law whenever he pleases. We also see not one boy stands up to Jack and tells him to follow the rules. This indicates that others don’t like the rules either. Until this stops, the boys may start to side with Jack based on the idea that life with him in charge is more fun and the fact that he carries a lot of power. If others follow in Jack’s footsteps, the island will fill with anarchy.
ReplyDeleteI agree on what you are saying Jake. Jack is going to be the new symbol for power because he is strong enough to speak out without the conch and break the rule and he is able to do it without anybody cutting him off. If jack has the power to take over and become Chief he will attract the other kids to follow him because he will have rules that they like or not have any rules at all. But i think people are going to start to side with Jack also.
DeleteI also agree with you because it seems that the boys continue to take Jack's side. Like in this chapter, when he says "Bollocks to the rules...," the boys were filled with joy and excitement as if he took the words right out of their mouths. Jack and the boys clearly don't like nor respect the rules provided by Ralph because instead of watching over the fire, gathering drinking water, building shelters, and using the bathroom area, they just go off and have fun or hunt. I feel that if this continues, Jack will become the leader and Ralph will be on his own with his small group.
Delete"If Jack was chief he'd have all hunting and no fire. We'd be here till we died...
ReplyDeleteHe hates me. i dunno why. If he could do what he wanted"(93).
In this chapter it mostly talks about how Ralph can not handle the pressure anymore and a really small revolt is taken place. Ralph has the conch and he has the opportunity to blow the conch and get the hunters and little-luns attention, but he decides not too and he just gives up. We were talking about before how being in a new location or habitat can have a positive feeling at first, but eventually it would end up impacting them in a negative way. When Jack broke the rules, that was the final straw for Ralph and he could not handle it anymore and he just gave up. Him giving up symbolizes his weakness that he is getting from being on this island and that effects piggy too. piggy was able to stand up to Jack because he had Ralph as chief to protect him, but from now on its going to be different and piggy is going to be a constant target and he is going to get singled out by Jack. Piggy says what he says about if Jack becomes leader they will die and he is just saying that because he is scared of Jack and Jack's followers will survive with Jack but Piggy will fall because he does not do what Jack does.
Only the Hunters will survive!
Simren, I kind of get what you're saying and I somewhat agree. But don't you think there is a more sympathetic view towards Ralph? Do you think he could have done anything to prevent your prophecy of "Hunters will survive!"? I agree with you, that is a possible situation, but why? Ralph can't control this group of immature kids. It wouldn't be problem if it were just the littluns, but Ralph has to deal with the immature biguns like Jack. Jack is powerful, but in the wrong way.
DeleteWhat both Simren and Teddy say resonate with me, but I don't believe there is a right or wrong in this situation. None of the boys are actually more or less mature than any of the others, they just show it in different ways. Ralph certainly might have more on his plate because of the immaturity of the rest of the group, but he also displays his own immaturity in his lack of willingness to split his leadership with Jack. His self-righteousness and constant belief that his "way" is the "right and only way" is a type of immaturity that often gets overlooked because everyone embodies that to some degree.
DeleteJack's immaturity presents itself more violently, which can also mean that it seems more obvious, but really he is on equal terms with Ralph. He could also be seen as more mature, even, because to be mature, which usually means to behave as an adult would, is not always synonymous to doing the right thing. Often, in fact, adults conduct their behavior almost exactly like Jack (albeit with less actual bloodshed) due to the personally advancing nature of his actions.
I consider the dynamic of and between Ralph and Jack more of a Venn Diagram, for lack of a better term, than two entirely separate states of being.
On page 89 Simon quotes, “What I mean is…maybe it’s only us”. This quote really stood out to me because Simon is the kindest out of all of the boys and he has a pure heart while the other choir boys are cruel. He’s always helping others and trying to ease their pain somehow. Simon's statement about the beast shows that he believes that the beast is not a ghost or an animal instead he considers that the beast resides in them. All the boys have the beast in them, and they are ultimately frightened by each other. Even I believe that the boys themselves are the '’beast’’, because from what we have read so far, they are capable of hurting and killing things just to satisfy their own needs. The boys are starting to become uncivilized, and they’re becoming more savage as time is passing on in the island. In conclusion, I think the beast is not a physical beast, meaning it’s not an animal or a ghost; however it is a metaphorical beast. Simon was the first one to realize this; I wonder who’s going to be the next one. I think it will be either Piggy or Ralph because they are the only ones beside Simon who haven’t lost their grip on reality.
ReplyDelete"If I blow the conch and they don't come back; then we've had it. We shan't keep the fire going. We'll be like animals. We'll never be rescued" (pg 92).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because Jack was afraid that if he blew the conch, the boys would have ignored him. The conch symbolizes order and if there is no order, then there is nothing left to have them brought together. The conch's job is to bring everyone together as a civilization to, be heard, and discuss rules. Once the conch fails to do its job, it will no longer have the power to bring them and hold them together. If the boys don't come together then their chances of being rescued and saved will be scarce. I feel that the boys need to set up and start working together as a team because if they won't they'll never get off the island as they desire.
I agree. Ralph does not blow the conch because he is afraid of the truth, which is that Jack and the others are becoming true savages. I think Ralph sums it up well when he says, “the rules are the only thing we’ve got!” (91). What is their civilization without the island’s rules? I also agree with you that the boys need to start working as a real team. I hope everyone will start to really help out, but I do not think it will happen. Chapter 5 is the beginning of the end. Everyone’s inner evil human traits are starting to show, and there will be no stopping them. Is there a way to stop this savageness from happening? Will people start thinking like Piggy and Ralph do? I believe there is a way to order again, but Jack is blinding everyone into his main notion of hunting.
DeleteI agree with you teamwork needs to be a priority among the boys, however I think it was Ralph who held the conch at this time not Jack. The boys are enjoying themselves to much and getting careless, which leaves Ralph and a few others to do the work that is supposed to be divided among each other equally.
Delete“‘…maybe there is a beast.’ ‘…maybe it’s only us.’” (89). Simon’s theory is shocking to everyone because no one has thought of this idea. But he is completely right. There are no beasts, snakes, or ghosts. People are not afraid of these creatures; they are instead afraid of fear itself. This fear of fear is what causes the collapse of the island’s civilization. Jack takes advantage of the fear by leading everyone to go out and hunt their fear, or the “beast”. It is easier to follow Jack because it feels safer and just for everyone to do so. In a sense, Jack is the beast because he is the one who is causing the collapse of the island’s order. Jack’s actions influence everyone else, eventually leading to a savage society. In the end, everyone will be a beast at heart. Is there a fear in every society? Is everyone afraid of becoming savage, and letting their human characteristic of evil out?
ReplyDeleteI completely agree. This specific quote was also very shocking to me. Their is no "creature", the boys just try to convince themselves their is one in order to ease their fear in themselves. Deep down they want to go home to the civilized world they were once used to. However, they see themselves slowly changing into animals and beasts and fear the people they will soon become.
DeleteI agree with your theory of how the boy's are afraid of fear itself. But, to add on to your theory my own interpretation of the quote was the beast is the whole group of boys itself not just Jack. The word beast has a negative connotation of dangerous, harmful and untamed. Characteristics of what the boys have become. And how this "beast" is not only destroying the island but, their own little society.
DeleteI agree with your theory of the boys not being scared of a specific thing/creature, and that, actually they are more in fear of fear itself. I feel as though the boys are making this creature up/ going along with the idea that there is indeed somekind of creature, though we all know, and they know, there is really no monster among them. Also, i agree with you Julissa, on how the boys have similar characteristics that monsters have - I thought that was a really good point you made.
Delete"'The rules!' shouted ralph 'you're breaking the rules!'"
ReplyDeleteRalph is shouting this Jack, at this point I am getting bored of reading how ignorant Jack is, he is so full of himself, now more than ever since he finally killed a pig. He needs to calm down because he is not the first person in the history of the world to do so, that being said he needs to stop. Not only is he disrespecting Ralph he is showing the rest of the group that its ok to not follow the rules and that you can do whatever you want. I feel that the reason he does this is because whatever happens its on Ralph because Ralph is in charge, but I feel that if he were in charge he would not allow anyone to disrespect him, or disobey the rules he has made.
I agree!! I think that Jack is really full of himself, like I get the feel that he doesn't really care about anyone but himself sometimes. He just needs to sit down and see that they are all in this together, no matter what happens because all they have is each other.
DeleteIt was really hard to pick a quote this time around because there were many things that were confusing/interesting. I decided to choose the end of the chapter where they talk about what grownups would do: "'They wouldn't quarrel-' 'Or Break my specs-' 'Or talk about a beast-'" (94). Now my main question here is why? What is the distinct difference between children and grownups, besides obvious characteristics? Why would the characters believe grown ups can handle anything? The only thing I can think of, is they each see differently. When I say "see" I mean the way we interpret the world. Percival and the other littluns see beasties, while grownups would understand it could very well be something else, possibly even some of the biguns too like Ralph and Piggy. Children don't have enough experience in life so they have to create their own little world or interpretation to fill in the blanks. The littluns in the story created this beastie in their minds. It is the same as if a little kid pretends a pencil is a sword when playing. It is imagination and sometimes it isn't for the good. Too bad for Ralph and Piggy, most of the children on the island aren't past this stage of false creation. This is turning out to be more of a coming of age story than I thought. My question is when is this transition to a more mature self, and why?
ReplyDeleteInteresting, but I disagree.
DeleteI don't think that this is turning into a story about coming of age, I think it is turning more and more into a metaphor of civilization. At first when the boys come onto the island they are entranced and excited, there are no grownups! There is a pool! There is fruit! This would be equivalent to a new government being founded with a revolutionary new idea, and this idea brings tons of new people in, and they think it's great. There might even be gaping wholes in the idea behind the entire civilization, but the people ignore it, at first. Then when everything settles down people start to see the problems, and new problems are created. Everyone starts to panic, and this is where we are now in the story. The boys are starting to realize that the island isn't so great, there are no parents, there is a beast lurking around, and most significantly everyone is starting to crazy.
"Simon's effort fell about him in ruins; the laughter beat him cruelly and he shrank away defenseless to his seat." (89)
ReplyDeleteLaughter in this book is key. Laughter is used in many ways. In this chapter it is used, primarily, out of fear or nervousness. The boys, even though some wont admit it, are terrified at the prospect of a beast. Their laughter is comforting and it makes them feel like a cohesive group, which is in no way what they are. There is a similar attitude from the people in "The Lottery", they know that the situation they are in is weird, frightening, and confused but they still partake in the ritual. The ritual is the only thing they have, it's the only way that these people don't let everything fall into chaos. I think of laughter in this book as glue, when a frightening topic is being discussed and things are starting to fall apart, they laugh to bring everything back together. Simon starts to talk about a disturbing prospect and they boys start to laugh, because they don't want to hear about it.
"'We're all drifting and things are going rotten. At home there was always a grown up. Please, sir; please, miss; and then you got an answer. How I wish!'"(94)
ReplyDeleteI think this line does a great job of showing Ralph's exasperation at having to be the leader. I can kind of feel for him, because it's hard to keep a lot of young kids under control, especially when something is there to easily distract them from their necessary duties. Ralph feels like he can't use his authority, and he can't possibly compete with the adults back home who could really control these kids. Ralph is only six years older at most than these kids, and they can't bring themselves to not relate to him as a fellow kid. Sometimes it's hard to take people close to your age seriously, but why haven't they caught on that the need for his authority is apparent?
“Exposure to the air had bleached the yellow and pink to near white and transparency.” (78)
ReplyDeleteWhen I read this quote I automatically made a connection between the conch and the boys on the island, I saw the conch changing color as somewhat of a symbol of the boys changing. The conch is changing due to the air and I feel the boys are changing due to the island itself. Throughout the book it is evident to see that as soon as they stepped on the island up until this point the boys have been going through changes, changes in behavior, changes in personality and changes in point of view. Also, I remember in one of our class discussions, Marta stated that pink represents hope, and I feel now that the conch is fading into more a white/transparent color, I feel like not only are the boys loosing hope of being rescued, or maybe, Golding is trying to say that there may not even be hope left for the boys – and they just may never get rescued. In the book, the conch has always represented power – the way it would be blown and all the boys would follow the call of it, or how the boys often fight over it, for that right to talk; maybe Golding is trying to express the boys are losing that sense of power – now that the conch is transparent ( you can see through it ), I feel that’s how the power is among the boys – its transparent, you can see right through it.
I completely agree that the conch loosing color symbolizes that collapse of order. There is also another part in this chapter where Jack talks without the conch and no one corrects him or tries to stop him, this very clearly shows that the conch is loosing power. The idea of the color changing reflecting the group is also very interesting because white is the color of surrender. This could mean surrender to the island, to primitiveness, and to Jack.
DeleteWhile reading what you thought it also made me think about how there innocence s fading as well. Pink on the conch can it be thought to be innocence. When you are young or when your born all your skin is pink and full of many years to come. Here all tht seems to be dwindling slowly. The boys maybe losing the innocence because they have to think about all the problems they are facing instead of living happy lives.
DeleteWhile ready your thoughts I also started to believe that the boys are losing there innocence. The conch loses it pink also represents this, when a baby is just born there a pink and with many years to come. The boys are becoming the opposite of that because they are focused with situation much bigger then them selves they have to make adult desisons. This also mean that there is no law or rule because the conch which symbolizes the order of the boys is becoming transparent and worthless.
Delete"If I blow the conch and they don't come back;then we've had it. We shan't keep the fire going. We'll be like animals. We'll never be rescued."(102)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because of the change Ralph has experienced on this island. During the beginning he was very confident about getting out of here and being rescued. On page 9 he quotes "I could swim when I was five. Daddy taught me. He's a commander in the Navy. When he gets leave he'll come and rescue us", this was at the beginning of the book and Ralph didn't expect for things to get this horrendous. He gave up on trying to be the hopeful chief and gave up because everyone has become savage. I think that if people don't start acting civilized and listening to each other, they aren't to advance in any way of ideas to get off the island. The society has become chaotic because of the lack of leadership Ralph has shown now, instead of being the same from the start with full of confidence.
I would say that Ralph has been brought back to reality in this chapter-his serious demeanor, which was mentioned several times on pages 102, shows that he is realizing that the group is falling apart. I thought that this falling out was almost inevitable, but Ralph and some of the others did seem to believe in the power of their group for some time. Ralph and a few others, Piggy, for example, act as if they are surprised when all of the kids break into chaos frequently throughout and after their meetings. Now, Ralph is struggling to deal with the reality that the group may never get back together.
Delete"Only, decided Ralph as he faced the chief's seat, I can't think. Not like Piggy." (78)
ReplyDeleteAt this scene in the book it is showing how the pressures of being chief is really getting to Ralph. He is kind of second guesses himself on how he thinks through thing relating to his chief status, and feeling that he should do it more like how Piggy would. Also it's like Ralph is finally realizing how bad their situation is really becoming because later in the chapter he discusses the conditions in which the island is kept,the fire, and water, the important things that are needed to survive on this island.
I think that with Ralph's new realization about their bad situation he also realizes that he is not as much of a leader as he thought he was. He backs up this point because in the end he doesn't want to blow the conch because he knows the boys won't return. He doesn't want to show he is weak if he can avoid it. Ralph wants to hold on to his power and to order for as long as possible, before all the boys become savages.
Delete"That was why the place looked so different. Normally...But now the sun was slanting in at one side, so that the shadows were where they ought to be." Page 104
ReplyDeleteI thought that this was an interesting quote because it seemed to be full of metaphorical meaning to me. The way that Golding describes the assembly area as "different" shows how the nature of the group has changed. They are no longer unified by one leader (Ralph), but broken apart into a few different and opposing groups. They do not have the same ability to communicate and act cohesively that they did before, so it only makes sense that the place where they had their meetings, one of the few important aspects of their society, is now "different". In addition, the way that Golding writes how the "shadows were where they ought to be" may be saying something about how the group was never really able to be unified by Ralph--perhaps the group's decay was unavoidable. This may be part of a message Golding is sending to the reader about human nature, how we are naturally inclined to rival with each other in an attempt to gain power.
"He found himself understanding the wearisomeness of this life, where every path was an improvisation and a considerable part of one's waking life was spent watching one's feet" (76)
ReplyDeleteThis quote was really interesting to me because it is showing how Ralph is tiered of having to think for himself. In society everything is already laid out for us, because of the rules and laws and luxuries of society people don't have to think about what they are doing. Or whether it is worth doing. This quote shows how for the first time , the boys are must really think about what they are doing or "where they are stepping" because their actions have huge consequences. because they have not experienced those consequences yet I don't think any of them except for Ralph, Piggy and Simone realize the significance of what they are doing and what they must do.
I agree with the idea that Ralph is truly realizing the significance of his position, but I don't see it as the luxuries being already laid out. I see it as Ralph realizing the heavy responsibility he has as chief, and the huge impact and power he has through decision making. This is displayed in teh way he plans out the meeting point by point, and it seems that rather than being tired of thinking for himself he is taking initiative and using this need to think for himself to better the community adn share his ideas.
Delete"The world, that understandable and lawful world, was slipping away. Once there was this and that; and now— and the ship had gone," (84).
ReplyDeleteThis quote is really significant because it shows that the boys have lost their grip on reality. When it states that "the ship had gone" I think that the ship was a metaphor for reality and order, which is now gone. Throughout the chapter the boys keep getting chaotic and there is a lot of arguing. At the end of the Chapter after all the boys, other than Piggy, Ralph, and Simon, have run off, Piggy and Simon urge Ralph to blow the conch and bring the boys back. However, Ralph refuses because he doesn't think the boys will come back and this shows that he has weakness as a leader. This shows that Ralph knows that order is slipping away. "The world, that understandable and lawful world," is saying that life as the boys knew it is gone and that order and law have been replaced with savage and blood-thirsty boys.
I completely understand what you mean. Originally, the boys set up certain systems and living guidelines that have withered away with time. Most fo the boys are used to this and accept it, but Ralph is annoyed at the fact that everyone else so readily gives up. I think that when the 'ship' leaves, they not only lose all hope for rescue, but also lose all hope for working together as a unit.
Delete"If you are scared of someone you hate him but you can't stop thinking about him. You kid yourself he's all right really, an' then when you see him again, it's like asthma an' you can't breathe." (p. 93)
ReplyDeleteI think that by saying this, Piggy is trying to convey to Ralph how awful he feels living on an island where you are aware of just how much everyone dislikes you. Fear plays such a large role in this story. It forces the boys to make decisions about things they would rather leave unanswered, like with the beast. Even though Piggy and Simon aren't exactly sure of whether or not they believe in the ghost, they take Jack's side simply because he scares them and makes them want to do right by him. Fear causes us to change our perspective on certain things in order to favor the side you would least expect. I think Piggy adds the part about not being able to breathe because it shows just how much stress he is actually under. He is afraid that any wrong move will get him kicked off the island, or worse. Piggy has no idea what the other boys, especially Jack, could do to him, so he wants to play it safe.
I totally agree with you. From the beginning of the story Piggy has wanted a sense of security. He knows his Auntie isn't around to take care of him anymore so he realizes on the order and good leadership of the boys on the island. Also, from the first moment that he set eyes on him, Piggy has been intimidated by Jack. The fact that Jack had the nerve to punch Piggy in the last chapter probably scares Piggy even more. He has no idea if he could do anything worse to him.
Delete“Last night I had a dream, a horrid dream, fighting with things. I was outside the shelter by myself fighting with things.”(84) I picked this quote because, it gave a different perspective of a character that mostly goes unheard throughout the book, which is the Littluns. Throughout the book the littluns are treated poorly or unfairly from the older boys and they don’t have a chance to voice their own opinion or share an idea that might benefit the group. But, this quote that Phil had said has a symbolic message on how the group of itself is deteriorating and how everyone is standing on their own. The line “Fighting with things” could represent that the boys are battling with their own fears such as never escaping the island could turn into a reality. And, “Shelter by myself” could mean that the littluns and the older boys don’t feel protected from one to another to the outbreak of violence and savagery that is happening the island. That could risk the life of anyone.
ReplyDelete"Because the rules are the only thing we've got!" (101).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it conveys Ralph's desperation for normalcy. As he discusses later, he longs for the order and discipline of adults and despises the chaos that ensues among the boys. The rules are the only thing tying Ralph to the adult world and to his old life. I found it interesting how Jack is becoming increasingly popular among the boys because of his more wild and savage way of leading. The boys do not understand that although Ralph's way of leading may seem boring compared to Jack's, it will in the end be more effective. Jack and Ralph's power struggle is represented in the pig vs. the fire. Killing pigs (Jack) will give them instant gratification, but it will not help them be rescued. Keeping the fire going is a longer process, but in the end it will help them the most.
I agree that the children are drawn to the idea of quicker results something that they can find with Jack and the pigs rather than the slower result of the fire and Ralph. I also think that the children get angry at the person who brings the bad news. If it had been Jack who summoned the wake up call they may have reacted differently. They are still too young to think about the negative aspects of a life without the same rules they already had in place before they dive directly into it. I think this quote also connects back to the idea that they are the most afraid of themselves because Ralph is afraid of nothing more than a society that is in complete chaos. A direction they seem to be heading in, unless Ralph finds a way to miraculously reign the others in.
Delete"'Who cares?' Ralph summoned his wits. 'Because the rules are the only thing we've got!'" (91) This quote stuck out to me because it shows the root of the problems not only in this society but in societies all around the real world. These children rest upon the rules for a source of security and assurance so that when they are lost the island turns into a place of chaos. When Ralph says these words they are quickly forgotten because Jack has no interest in what he had to say in that moment but the importance of these words coming from the leader should not be underestimated. These children are afraid and unsure of so much but the rules are something that will always be steadfast and in place. Without these guidelines the children move around aimlessly attempting to find ways to cope with their fear and homesickness. This is also shown in the real world through the actions of societies without a set of proper rules and guidelines. People need something to obey because without it they restort to the very ideas that the children are resorting to on the island. Laws are an imperative part to a properly flowing society and community because people are unable to function without them. The children on the island have been inching towards this point of chaos since the very initiation of Ralph as leader, it is only a matter of time before these children start to jockey for power among Jack and Ralph.
ReplyDelete"'Maybe there is a beast....maybe it's only us.'" Chapter 5, pg. 80
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out to me because it describes the human condition. In connection, it relates back to when the fire gets out of control. The boys talked about the littleun' that went missing, and said that it might have been the beastie. This is symbolic for the beast inside all of the boys, for starting the fire and killing the boy.
Good, Jack. Elaborate more on this great idea! Do you think we really do have a "beast" within all of us??
DeleteAfter the meeting breaks up and becomes chaotic, with all of the boys except Piggy, Ralph and Simon, having run off into a group, chanting and dancing, Ralph, Piggy and Simon see that "Percival Wemys Madison, of the Vicarage, Harcourt St. Anthony, lying in the long grass, was living through circumstances in which the incantation of his address was powerless to help him" (94). A little while earlier in the story Percival is called out to speak about the 'beast', but is so overwhelmed with the pressure that he ends up reciting his name and address, and drifting off to sleep. This is a very weird instance in the book. This quote highlights the importance of this moment, when things have reached utter chaos, to the point at which the conch is denied power, and the rules hold no meaning. This is shown by the fact that Percival's address, a connection to civilization and order, has no power. The fact that is says Percival was 'living through' this moment at which his address has no power suggests that at every other moment i his life, his name and address fit as a piece into society, and now they have no such power, and a re just a remnant of his past experience.
ReplyDelete"We have lots of assemblies. Everybody enjoys speaking and being together. We decide things. But they don't get done." (79)
ReplyDeleteThis quote made me really happy. In my previous blog post on chapter 4 I talked about how Ralph is starting to take initiative after the fire incident. I hoped that he would continue to be this way, and he is! Ralph is starting to see the big flaws in their new society and is starting to take action against these things. On the page before the narrator was explaining how quickly everyone was heading to the meeting: They didn't want to get Ralph as angry as he was when the fire went out. A little later in the chapter he talks about the importance of the fire. He's learning from the mistakes he made when he was more relaxed, and I would like to applaud Ralph on his leadership.
I agree that Ralph is trying to change the flaws in their society because he wants to be looked at as a powerful leader. Many of the boys support Ralph and his ways; however, in my blog post I argued how he was loosing respect of some of the boys. I think that he was so hurt by loosing respect, which is why he initially was going to step down. I think that Golding displays the boys with supporting Ralph and his orders, but not all of them at the same time respect him. Usually I think of those two things as similar, with one you have the other, but in this case I don’t know if that is true. I think that Jack has such a strong influence on Ralph, and he causes Ralph to look down on himself. In the beginning they were alike in many more ways then they are now. Jack is trying to take Ralph’s power away from him because he is jealous. I think that they are such opposites; it would not be good if Jack came in and took over their society. Jack now has such a free spirit and I think he would get caught up in the power, and let people do whatever they want to some extent, while Ralph is really trying to insure safety for everyone and has the goal of getting them rescued.
DeleteI agree with you that there is progress when looking at Ralph and his ways but do you really think he is doing his rethinking because he is just noticing the flaws or is it because an event changed his feelings. In my post, I shared the topic of recognition with you but I feel that he is not just suddenly feeling good hearted, I feel that its really him just trying to not lose the tug of war that Jack and him created the moment the elected leader. We will have to see how this plays out but I don't feel that his change is for the right reason
Delete“There was a sound of a brief tussle and the conch moved to and fro. “You gimme that conch back!” Ralph pushed between them and got a thump o the chest. He wrestled the conch from someone and sat down breathlessly.” (90).
ReplyDeleteI thought this quote expressed how their little society has changed from its start. In the beginning, everyone listened to Ralph and gave him respect. No one felt like they could revolt. I think that this could have been because of fear, a fear that can be comforted by someone with the right power. The children felt Ralph had this power, so they relied on him to make everything okay. Now, they have gotten to know Ralph a little more, and his ways of ruling, and this caused them to loose respect for him. They are not afraid to speak out of terms, when before it was un-thought of to speak at a meeting without the conch. I think that if Ralph set himself as the type of leader who was feared by most, but still respected and looked up to, he could have sustained power in a structural way. I think this could have worked especially with these kids, because they are always so scared of what the grownups would think, and if Ralph displayed himself as a grownup, they would then be somewhat scared of him and try to please him while not breaking his orders.
"Fat lot of good we are," said Ralph. "three blind mice. I'll give up"
ReplyDelete"If you give up" said Piggy, in an appalled whisper, "what'd happen to me?" (93)
This passage from the reading verifies my worries for the boys. In this scene, Ralph is fighting with Jack about the rules of the assembly and various issues that in Ralph's eyes need to be regulated. In this scene Ralph is referring himself, piggy, and simon as the three blind mice implying that they have no idea what they are doing, therefore blind. Ralph sees this as being ironic because they are the three trying to do the best acts to benefit the group as a whole. I feel that the roles are changing a lot throughout the story, starting with total dominance to now mixed and I'm predicting a shift to total dominance once again with jack being in charge. The fact that Ralph sees him only truly having two followers shows the fate of everyone on the island. Like in my last blog post, Im making an educated guess that the groups will divide into two different conglomerates of children causing tension on the island that is already existent. I feel since Ralph is falling off his throne, he's starting to realize that the things Piggy and Simon were saying are the most important. I feel that Ralph has put aside his feud with Jack to see the thrush. Its a real struggle.
"the thing is-fear cant hurt you anymore that a dream. there arent anybeast to be afraid of on this island."
ReplyDeletethis quote to me is very confusing. if a person dreams of something there doing on there own. then he can cause his own reality through the dream.this then would mean fear can hurt. you can harm yourself by what is with you. this may not make much sense but, the beast that they are all scared may just be in them selves.
The beginning of your response confused me a bit, but when saying that the beast they fear is in themselves i agree with you. They have become so power hungry that they are slowly starting to turn against each other- forgetting their first goal: to survive until they are rescued. Of course, they are trying to survive, but their behavior has changed drastically in a way that has left them as savages. Them becoming savages has completely left their original selves lost.
Delete"Maybe there is a beast... What I mean is... Maybe its only us?" (89)
ReplyDeleteWhen reading this quote- my heart jumped a little. I think it really adds to the suspense in the novel. I think he refers to the group, saying that they are becoming their own enemy. When a factor as great as power is involved, we do what we can to grasp it, and once we have that power all we do is crave more of it. After living all on their own for so long, they have forgotten what it is like to live in a real civilization. They are becoming complete power hungry savages- and Simon is the only one realizing it.