Post your reader responses here: Choose a line or two from Chapter 1 and explain why it stands out to you. Does this line shock you, confuse you, or seem important in some way? Does it make you ask a question? Can
you make a connection to your life or another text? Does the language
stand out to you for some reason? What is this line saying about the
characters in the novel and about people or the world, in general?
Then, respond to a classmate's post. Agree or disagree, but make sure that you add something new-- a new idea, a reference to another part of the book. Include textual evidence as you push the conversation forward. Ask more questions to keep the dialogue going...and remember-- this assignment is all about thinking/analysis.
I found Jacks sudden shift in character throughout chapter three to be fascinating. When hunting, it seems Jack begins to almost lose his human qualities. When startled by a birds cry when hunting, "Jack himself shrank at this cry with an indrawn hiss of breath, and for a minute became less like a hunter that a furtive thing, ape-like among the tangle of trees" (49). The word "hiss" is usually associated with a sound that animals make when frightened, leading me to believe Golding was suggesting that he was becoming less human. Jack is described as a "thing" rather then a human, and is even compared to an ape, suggesting that he is becoming more animalistic. Jacks focus shift from getting home to killing the pigs showed me that he is breaking away from his life back in England. The clothing the boys wear seems to be a symbol for their lives back in home, as it is the only thing that they still have from their past lives. Jack now has shed his clothing, only wearing his "his tattered shorts". I believe Jack becoming evidently more animal-like is foreshadowing for how the rest of the boys will lose their civil qualities and the more ferocious sides of them will begin to come out.
ReplyDeleteNice point Ruby I agree, tottally with what you are saying. But I also think that maybe Jack is acting like this, showing animalistic characterisics because he is getting exiceted. When I say excited I mean anxous and yerns to kill an animal, such as a wild pig/boar.
Delete-Marcello Brattesani
I agree with both ideas. Jack has defiantly changed through out the chapter and has become more animalistic. I think that he is breaking away from his home life and becoming more excited about hunting. He also seems to be leaving the idea of being rescued, making me think that he either does not care or knows that it is an unlikely chance that they will be.
DeleteDuring this chapter Ralph finally expresses his frustration with the group. He says to Jack "They're hopeless. The older ones aren't much better, D'you see? All day I've been working with Simon. No one else. They're off bathing, or eating, or playing." (50) He comes to the conclusion that during meetings all of the boys are willing to help and are excited to help but then when the time actually comes none of them are willing to work. If I were the leader I would get frustrated too. Ralph is trying to do what is best for the group as his role of being leader but the others just take that for granted in a way. They look to Ralph has the "provider" or the group instead of actually working as a team and helping him out. I'm not sure if Ralph deserves this or not but I believe it's a little mean to leave it up to him to figure things out when the others give ideas and strategies but don't fulfill them in the end.
ReplyDeleteLily Cook:
DeleteEmma-I agree completely that Ralph is taken for granted in this chapter. I do not think that he deserves this treatment, because he should at least be recognized in a positive manner for all that he does for the group. This chapter further develops his character traits of being a rational thinker and a proactive worker, which creates conflict when he doesn't see the same in the other boys.
Lily Cook:
ReplyDeleteIn Chapter 3, conflict between Ralph and Jack erupts in an argument, while Simon helps the younger kids out. Simon's acts of kindness surprised me, and the part that stood out to me was on page 59, when "Simon found for [the younger kids] the fruit they could not reach, pulled off the choicest from up in the foliage, passed them back down to the endless, outstretched hands". This was significant to me because it was unusual the way Simon made time to immerse himself in the nature, and to help out the younger kids, which at this point most older kids on the island were not doing. Also, it seems only natural that any humans stranded on an island will start to behave without care to any sort of morals upheld by society, which was present in Jack, Ralph and Piggy's characters, but not Simon's, which was why I thought that he depicted a genuinely good hearted person.
Good point, Lily. With all the bickering that goes on between Ralph, Jack, and even Piggy at points, its nice to see someone like Simon, who is, like you said, a genuinely good hearted person. I think Golding chooses to include this character in the story to remind the reader that through all the problems, people are naturally good. Hopefully, later in the book, we can see this idea of goodness spread to the rest of the society.
DeleteOne quote that perked my interest is when Jack said "Rescue? yes of course! All the same, I'd like to catch a pig first-"(pg-53). I found it odd because Jack makes it seem as if getting rescued isn't as important as him getting this pig. For some reason this quote also makes me think that if somebody were to show up on the Island and rescue them, Jack wouldn't want to leave because he never caught a pig. I wonder if Jack is acting like because he feels the need to show how much better he is that he can catch a wild pig, and by doing this he would think that it would show off his leadership skills. Or maybe he is acting like this so that he can get more respect from the kids, so they realize that they made a mistake by electing Ralph and elect him instead.
ReplyDelete-Marcello Brattesani
Oh Chello Chello... I agree with you and I think that Jack is only doing that to show off his leadership skills. But, if you think about it, if he wanted to show off his leadership skills, he would have helped Ralph and showed him off, but he didn't. So maybe he is just trying to show off his strength, and not his leadership skills? I don't know, its just a thought. After reading the last sentence of your blog, I wonder if it is more of a dictatorship or a democracy? Sure they voted for Ralph, but, Ralph is really the only one making the big decisions without a vote. Usually all the kids just agree but thats only because they are naive.
DeleteI agree that Jack is more concerned about capturing a pig rather than being rescued, but I don’t think he does this because he wants the kids to realize that they should have elected him as leader; I feel that he has already accepted the fact that he is not the leader. He may just be trying to redeem himself from not killing the pig during chapter one because he doesn't want to be seen as weak to the others.
DeleteAfter reading chapter three, it's become more clear to me that Jack has no real interest in the welfare of the group."'I was talking about smoke! Don't you want to be rescued? All you can talk about is pig, pig, pig!'" (54). While Ralph and Simon are having difficulties building the huts that are essential for the group's survival, Jack is more concerned about meat. He has become more barbaric, focused on only what he thinks is important, which happens to be hunting. On page 53 it says that "Jack had to think for a moment before he could remember what rescue was", this shows how clouded his mind is. Probably with his thoughts on what a failure his first attempt at killing a pig was. When I was reading chapter three, I kept thinking is the island really changing Jack or is it just bringing out his true nature? I have come to the conclusion that there was already a side to Jack that was selfish in an evil way, because I don't believe that someone can change their personality from being happy and nice to having an "opaque, mad look" in their eyes, that's just such a drastic change.
ReplyDeleteMykala I think you bring up some good points but I don't think he doesn't care for the welfare of the group instead I think that because he was unable to kill a pig the first time he must from himself to be fully accepted by his peers. Its an ego boost to be macho and his ego has been wounded especially since the vote where the children elected Ralph to be leader instead of him.
DeleteI agree with you that Jack did show a much more barbaric side to him in this chapter. Why does he want meat so much?Maybe the meat symbolizes something besides the need of food.What that something is I don't know yet. The change in Jack I agree was so quick, a couple of weeks, maybe, a couple of months yes,but a couple of days seems such a small time period to be able to change so drastically.
DeleteIn chapter three the lack of communication between Jack and Ralph makes me question the groups’ ability to stay together. If two of the most influential people in the group cannot agree, will the assembly separate? When Jack is asking for water, Ralph “looked up, frowning, from the complication of leaves. He did not notice Jack even when he saw him” (50). William Golding uses this phrase to demonstrate that Ralph is no longer optimistic and is starting to give up; he is beginning to be faced with reality which may be the reason why he is trying to ignore his surroundings. After not noticing Jack, Ralph picked up a branch and “the leaves came apart and fluttered down” (50). In this quote I think that the leaves symbolize Ralph, he is crumbling into pieces because of the lack of effort from the other group members. This makes me wonder if Ralph is able to handle the position of being a leader or if he will soon give up his role to Jack.
ReplyDeleteAna I like what you're saying but, unfortunately I disagree with you (sorry), right underneath your quote it says "Ralph withdrew his attention from the shelter and realized Jack with a start" (50). I think that he was trying to focus on how to build better huts, he wasn't trying to ignore his surroundings he was trying to improve them. And although the lack of effort from the other group members may be discouraging, it's not like he can really expect alot from the little boys since they get distracted easily, so I don't think he's crumbling into pieces because of that. It seems to me that Ralph is still optimistic because he says " I thought you say a ship!" (54). Proving that he's still hopeful about being rescued.
DeleteWhat I found to be extremely significant about this chapter was on page 54 "some hidden passion vibrated in Ralph's voice". I up until this point had interpreted Ralph slightly arrogant and kathy but never out of control the way he seems to be on page 54. The island is beginning to take its tole on the boys and they are all changing. It's interesting to me how in only a few days the direness of their situation can become so different and through this desperation and lack of hope that results from being abandoned this long comes major shirts in character traits. I am also noticing this in Jack who seems like less of an authority figure and more defeated maybe Piggy will rise up (in the clique way that underdogs always do). I'm interested to find out how this lose of hope will mature them very quickly and how that will change the way they view the world and view themselves.
ReplyDeleteKate, although I agree that Ralph seems a little closer to his breaking point and there is no doubt that Jack has been defeated to some extent, I do not think that Piggy will be the one to step up. After the way Simon connected with the Island and was the first to find the fruit trees, that puts him next in line to be chief, if both Ralph and Jack fail. In order to survive, they need food. So far, Simon has been the only one to provide any of that. He also won over the trust of many of the "littluns" by leading them to the fruit, and since they make up so much of the group, having them on his side could have many benefits for Simon.
DeleteGolding seems to surprise me more and more. As the chapters go by, He uses different characters, like Ralph and Piggy, to foreshadow parts of civilization. In chapter 3, Golding uses Simon to represent genuine goodness. As Ralph and Jack continue on arguing, Simon separates from the group and takes a walk. At first, everything is dark, but then a ray of sunlight comes before him. He describes it as "a bowl of heat and light" (56). Golding uses description to show the transition between good and evil (dark to light). As he walks towards the sunlight, he is walking towards the good. Simon then squats down, and takes the time to appreciate the beauty of nature. "Evening was advancing toward the island; the sounds if the bright fantastic birds, the bee-sounds, even the crying of the gulls... The deep sea breaking miles on the reef made an undertone less perceptible than the susurration of the blood" (57). Golding uses this moment to show the goodness of Simon. Simon reminds the reader that there is still good and peace in this society. John Locke once said that people are not born good or evil, the society shapes their morality. I agree with his philosophy because this savage society changes the little boys. It made them cruel, jealous, and savage. Although I think that the society alters who they are, coming of age plays a big role as well. The boys experience a negative transition into adulthood. Their experience is negative because they are forced to grow up and become adults. Usually, for other kids it is easier to transition into adulthood because they have someone to look up to (their parents), but, because they have no higher authority, they have to rely on their memories to come up with an idea of what makes an adult. They are losing their innocence way too quickly. It is sad really to think about this, but, it is happening. That is why they are so lost; that is why they alter themselves; that is why they are liars; that is why they are savages; that is why they are no longer kids.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your point that Simon represents genuine goodness. I found it interesting how Jack and Ralph thought he was "queer" and "funny". To me, Simon seems to be one of the only characters who has not been blinded by greed for power and anger. It is interesting that Jack and Ralph found Simon and his ideas to be foreign.
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ReplyDeleteThe ways that the island seems to be reacting to the boys presence is very beautiful to me.On page 52 the plants that Simon named "opened their wide white flowers....Their scent spilled out into the air and took possession of the island." There seems to be somewhat of a harmony between the characters and this island that they have crashed onto even though what brought them here had left as scar. I also wonder if this certain harmony will last or if the boys relationship with the island will adapt and become more like where they came from. Is it human nature to want to industrialize the world that they live in. For now they remain in tents but what happens when its not enough for them will they tourch more of the island destroying the balance.
ReplyDeleteNik J
DeleteI like how you chose that quote since we had been talking about the color pink today and now white could be becoming another important color along with green. I also agree with the ways that you're saying that they will just torch more of the island destroying the balance. This has been bringing out Simon as a laid back character and this was the perfect quote to use for his personality.
Nik J
ReplyDelete"A bowl of heat and light" (56) also really stood out to me in the way that Ralph and Jack went on that journey, alone as if they are the only kids capable of doing that (leading).The personal conflict between Ralph and Jack mirrors the overarching thematic conflict of the novel. The conflict between the two boys brews as early as the election in Chapter 1 but remains hidden beneath the surface, masked by the camaraderie the boys feel as they work together to build a community. In this chapter, however, the conflict erupts into verbal argument for the first time, making apparent the divisions undermining the boys’ community and setting the stage for further, more violent developments. As Ralph and Jack argue, each boy tries to give voice to his basic conception of human purpose: Ralph advocates building huts, while Jack champions hunting. Ralph, who thinks about the overall good of the group, deems hunting frivolous. Jack, drawn to the exhilaration of hunting by his bloodlust and desire for power, has no interest in building huts and no concern for what Ralph thinks. But because Ralph and Jack are merely children, they are unable to state their feelings articulately. At this point in the novel, the conflict between civilization and savagery is still heavily tilted in favor of civilization. Jack, who has no real interest in the welfare of the group, is forced to justify his desire to hunt rather than build huts by claiming that it is for the good of all the boys. Soon they will have to rise as men, as a whole, but not be scatted boys with little knowledge of survival.
I really liked how you paralleled these two character that so far seem to be the only two capable leaders on the island. Jack seems to be more of an adventurous and primal form of leader while Ralph holds in these feeling to help the people hes stuck on the island with. I also think that the conflict between these two characters is going to arise further because of Jack more savage personality.
DeleteI wondered why William Golding started this chapter with Jack acting almost barbaric? "Jack himself shrank at this cry with a hiss of indrawn breath."(49)Emphasis on the word hiss. In civil society, hissing is not the first action we do when face with something that disturbs us. But I also notice that Jack seemed obsess with pig,and meat, and not wondering about anything else. This made me wonder if Jack starts doing things his way, will the others follow?Thus the group separates?
ReplyDeleteDiana I agree with the word hiss standing out. Normally we don't think of humans hissing when they are mad or disturbed. I think thought that Jack is worried about their survival on the island and that's why he became obsessed with the pig and food. His main job is to gather food and in chapter 1 he failed to catch and kill the pig. Maybe this is a source of redeeming himself?
DeleteI believe that Jack is starting to become obsessed with being on top, and thus whenhe can't catch even a pig he starts to gain anger and "hisses" this is also why later on he refuses to give up the idea of hunting to make shelters. Jack as a character is not used to being outsmarted and I believe he will continue to obsess until he catches it.
DeleteI think because of this him and Ralph might spread apart and find their differences.
"With the fading of light the riotous colors died and the heat and urgency cooled away" (57). What really stood out to me about this quote was that the "heat and urgency cooled away." The entire chapter, there was a lot of suspense at first with Jack hunting for the pig, then tension only rose between Ralph and Jack, and now as night falls, all that goes away. It's the first moment so far in the book where everything really seems to be relaxed. The colors fading is also significant because as we talked about today, there were a lot of references made to the color pink. As I read, I also noticed many references to the color green. The fact that all these colors are fading away makes me think that something is going to change at night. Whether the change happens to the island or within the group, there will be a change to some degree.
ReplyDeleteAs I was reading chapter one and two there were signs that the boys would grow closer and closer by the day or grow apart due to the immense pressure on them. In chapter three you can clearly see that they are growing apart, there is intense conflict between all the characters. I think this is partly due to Ralph’s very flexible leadership. Until now he hasn’t confronted any of the other boys. He has a very passive way of dealing with conflict and that’s not the type of leader this group of boys need, “ they were both red in the face and found looking at each other difficult. Ralph rolled on his stomach and began to play with the grass.” Even when Ralph starts to finally confront Jack, about how little work him and his “hunters” have done, he is still passive. The reason Ralph is so passive is because of his denial and how much he cares about his image. His denial was clear to me in both chapter one and two, due to the fantasies he had about his dad saving him, but I just started to realize how much he cares about his appearance and how the group of boys perceive him. I think that Piggy would be a much better leader due to how realistic he is, but only if he can gain the respect of the boys. I wonder if Piggy will ever be able to do so.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I am a little confused by the beginning to your response (because you contradict yourself in regards to whether the boys are growing closer or further apart), I do agree with the rest of it. It seems that some time passes in between chapters 2 and 3 because Goldson writes: "His [Jack's] sandy hair, considerably longer now than when they had dropped in, was lighter now" (48). These changes in Jack's hair would take a week or two to occur, and chapter 2 took place only a day or two after they crashed. I think the time that passes in between the chapters is significant because this is when the boys begin to grow apart, as you mentioned earlier. I also agree that Ralph's leadership methods are very passive and in general do not seem like they will lead the boys to rescue. I think his obsession over finishing the huts which the boys haven't seemed to need is an example of this. I think Piggy would serve better as an advisor to the leader rather than the leader himself because although he is smart, he does not have (and will not earn) the respect of the boys.
DeleteI was very surprised how chapter three played out due to the end of chapter two. I thought that there was going to be more about the little boy and the fire but there was not up until this, "The two older boys flinched when they heard the shameful syllable... were not mentionable..."(52). I thought that what happened to the boy was very traumatizing to everyone on the island, but it seems that they it was forgotten about. I was just surprised that everyone could carry on, I understand that they are young boys, but I think that makes it harder. I was also surprised how, when the topic was mentioned, it was talked about as bad and made the boys "flinch." I think that this really shows the beginning to a break down. And soon the whole island will be a mess because I don't think that boys can handle the emotional stress that comes from people dying and being on a uninhabited island.
ReplyDeleteI think your point is very interesting, Lila, and I had a similar experience. When I first read that line I was startled by how weak they seemed in that moment. I wrote about something similar to that in my blog post, how I was curious about seeing Jack and Ralph, leaders, feeling vulnerable in some situations. It made me think about how everyone, no matter how bold and brave and leading, can be scared at some points. It can be scary to see the leader of a community frightened, but they are human after all and need to be taken care of by others sometimes, too.
DeleteJack, it seems with each chapter, is becoming more attached to this idea of killing. To a point though, where his main focus lies not in getting off the island, but rather in getting meat. "'Rescue? Yes, of course! All the same, I'd like to catch a pig first--'" This really shows the reader where his priorities lay. Also Jack is becoming less of a civilized human being, and more animalistic. Golding agrees, stating that Jack has become, "a furtive thing, ape like." This is shown by his refusal to build huts. As the huts symbolize civilization and order, his refusal in turn symbolizes his departure from civilized society into, to use goldings words, "ape-like", or primitive being. Likewise, the lack of clothes Jack wears can also represent him leaving his past behind and embracing a new, savage style of life. I believe this chapter is foreshadowing a split in the group into two separate side: Ralph and Jack
ReplyDeleteIsaiah, i agree that Jack only focuses on killing pigs for meat which i feel like is already and symbol in itself. I didnt notice his connection to animal behaviour but now i see what you mean. It is almost like the island turned him into a savage, and he has lost all sense of control. I think Golding makes the distinction between the two to show the island is splitting, like a real society people are taking sides. Do you think the rest of the island will side with Jack or Ralph? Or a split between the two?
DeleteIn this chapter, I thought a lot about power. Not in terms of controlling or authority, but the fact that sometimes, someone who carries a lot of power, can be scared and frightened, and maybe even in need of help. I've always seen leaders as people who know all the answers, and are able to help everyone else with their problems. But I never really think of the problems that they might have, the help they might need from others. In regards to needing a place to live, Ralph says, "'So we need shelters as a sort of-' 'Home'" (53) Often times I associate home with my family, and mainly my parents. At home I am safe and my parents are always there, protecting me. It is interesting to me that the "toughest" kids on the island were the ones to admit that what they really needed was a home. To me, I don't interpret that as a physical shelter, but I interpret it as a place where they can feel safe and protected, the way I feel when I'm at home with my family. I see this as vulnerable, in a way. That even the bravest of them all can understand the fact that everyone needs to be taken care of sometimes.
ReplyDeleteAudrey, you have a very interesting interpretation of why the word home was used and what it connotes. The thought that Ralph needs a home for comfort gave me a new look on Ralph's character. i thought of this part as Ralph pushing himself as a leader in order to provide for the other children. I think i saw it more as his obligation rather than his vulnerability. Your idea seems very possible and it could be some of both. Though Golding is using these kids to represent human nature, I think we should remember that they are still children and feel these basic emotions of fear and discomfort.
DeleteThroughout the chapter, there seems to be odd tensions between the characters. The word "indignant" comes up in various places which signifies that the boys are annoyed and angry with each other. Later on in the chapter, Ralphy and Jack describe Simon as "queer" and "funny", suspecting he was strange and maybe untrustworthy. However, Simon doesn't talk much and we don't really know him yet. This brings up the idea of "fearing the unknown", Simon doesn't speak much therefore they don't know him too well either. Additionally, fear is a big theme in this chapter when Jack was describing what he felt while he was hunting for pigs he said, "There's nothing in it of course. Just a feeling. But you can feel as if you're not hunting, but- being hunted, as if something is behind you all the time in the jungle."(53) I thought this quote was very significant to the idea of fear and might be foreshadowing future events. "'Got it!', Jack shouted so loudly that Ralph jumped.'What? Where? Is it a ship?"(54) This quote shows how worried Ralphy is getting and how for him, its no longer about surviving in the island,its more about getting rescued for Ralphy. Enjoying their time while they are all stranded in an island only seems like an option for the younger ones. The raising suspicions, hate and fear will only lead to the worst.
ReplyDeleteYes boo i agree with you I like your idea of fearing the unknown and that is the reason why the boys mistreat or call Simon names. I think that a big reason why the kids are acting like this is the lack of a parental figure in the island. These kids are trying to survive on their own without any parental help and are assuming the responsibilities on their own, and aren't really succeeding because they dont quite know how to do it.
DeleteIn this chapter i think we are seeing growing definition of the devision between the two different parties (Jack and Ralph). when Jack says, "we want meat" and Ralph replies "well we haven't got any yet. and we want shelter"(53) I saw the division among the boys here. Golding brings up two ideas, one of civilization and of basic survival. Though hunting is needed for civilization, Ralph is in favor of cooperation while jack seems stubborn and set on only hunting. Golding is really increasing the tention between both character which i think will further the importance of these two opposing ideas that he brought to the table. In a time like this, where children are trapped on a island i wonder which of the two ideas is more beneficial? but more than that, im really wondering which idea will be more realistic and the idea to catch on.
ReplyDeleteI think that you bring up a good point. There is a bit of division and conflict between Jack and Ralph. Both boys have their own ideas and they are usually conflicting ideas. They are both trying to be authoritative figures at the same time but it is hard because they can never agree on anything. I think that both their ideas are essential to survival on the island, but they don't see it that way because they are both so focused on one path. If they work together instead of against each other, then they may be able to come to some sort of agreement and become successful.
DeleteThe quote that most stood out to me in chapter three was, "He tried to convey the compulsion to track down and kill that was swallowing him up."(51). This quote stood out to me because we see how Jack is undergoing a transformation since the beginning of the novel. He has begun to be transformed from a civilized bully to a savage killer. He's obsessed with hunting at the expense of all else, even rescue. We basically see that Jack doesn't care about anything at this moment and it differs a lot from who he was before being stranded on this island, because i am sure that he wasn't going around killing animals or people. Although it is for survival that he is doing it his human instincts are kicking in and the rush of killing is overtaking him, because it is human nature to do whatever it takes to survive even if it means killing. I am fascinated in the fact that he says that it com-pulses him to kill. Is Jack going to continue acting like this? Will the boys continue to act out of order? Is it because of the lack of a parent figure in the island with them? Do you think that the boys will go to the extremes of killing each other for food or something that they need?
ReplyDeleteIn the middle of this chapter Ralph and Jake, the two apparent leaders of this society, get into into a fight over what is truly important, shelter or food. In this fight Golding writes, "They were both red in the face and found looking at each other difficult. Ralph rolled on his stomach and began to play with the grass." (52). This quote stuck out to me because the image of Ralph "playing with the grass" made me picture him as innocent and not the leader I saw him before. This change made me remember how young the kids actually are. The writing choice Golding made to make these characters so young was very pointed. As an allegory, it reflects the young spirits everyone has in themselves, and how all people and leaders will rely on their young selves as well as the confidence they try to show to be authoritative. That Ralph and Jake both "found it hard to look at each other" made me believe that this society might not move forward as planned, because how will any group work if people can't comprimise and share ideas. Golding shows some of the first conflicts Jake and Ralph begin to have in this quote.
ReplyDeleteI also chose this quote, but instead of noticing the age, I noticed the separation between the two characters and the change in their relationship. It shows how people's attitudes can change when they are in dire situations, two boys who agreed on most things, now conflicted on what to do because of the drastic situation that they are in. I agree with the statement that the society may not advance, but I also think that in the future it will divide into two sects under Ralph and Jack's names.
DeleteSo far in "Lord of the Flies" the dominant leaders of the group of boys have been Ralph (serving as chief) and Jack (kind of like Ralph's assistant, also head of the Choir). Ralph and Jack have both been the protagonists of the story. In chapters 1 & 2, the third most discussed character (behind Ralph and Jack) is Piggy, who is mentioned quite frequently and is looked at in detail by Goldson. However, one of the main things i noticed in chapter 3 was a complete lack of Piggy. He wasn't mentioned once throughout the entire chapter, which is interesting for a pretty central character. I think Goldson did this on purpose so he could talk about Simon, who he is introducing more into the story, I think as another option to lead the boys. Simon is involved in much of Chapter 3, including the final few paragraphs, which I think is significant because typically an author ends a chapter with writing he will: a)want you to think over especially carefully and b)continue to discuss further in the book. From the last paragraph on page 55 to the end of the chapter on page 57, the writing is exclusively about Simon. Goldson does a few things in this passage that are important. Firstly, he gives many physical descriptions of Simon which he had not really given before, such as describing his eyes, skin, hair, etc. This is important because Goldson did the same thing for Ralph, Jack, and Piggy (the 3 central and most influential characters). If he wanted to keep Simon low key, I don't think he would've included these descriptions. Secondly, Goldson uses the passage to talk more about Simon, giving us a better idea of who he is and how he might possibly be a leader of the boys. His actions seem to be calm and private, unlike those of Ralph/Jack/Piggy. Thirdly, I think the passage comes at a key time in the story. I think Goldson purposefully included this passage after a chapter in which Ralph and Jack seem to be growing apart and losing control over the group. Could Simon emerge as a leader if Ralph and Jack actually do split? Would Simon be a better leader than Ralph or Jack, or even Piggy?
ReplyDeleteIn chapter three, there is a sense of division. The older boys divided from the littleuns. The older boys pretty much come up with their own rules (because they made them) and the littluns have very little say in the small society of boys. "They obeyed the summons of the conch, partly because Ralph blew it, and he was big enough to be a link to the adult world of authority; and partly because they enjoyed the entertainment of the assemblies." (59) The littleuns just listen to what the older boys say, rather what Ralph says. This shows a sense of unity. This quote also brings up another point. The littleuns listen to Ralph partly because he is the closest thing that they have to an adult figure, something that they most likely want and need at this point. They are all fending for themselves and the littleuns are not used to doing anything like that. I think that the littleuns believe that they need someone to tell them what to do and to guide them. They are not used to being on their own and this is the way they have adapted to the situation.
ReplyDelete"They were both red in the face and found looking at each other difficult. Ralph rolled on his stomach and began to play with the grass." This quote stood out to me because it seemed to capture the concept of the split in authority and the change in relationship between Jack and Ralph. In this chapter it seemed almost as if Jack did not want to be a part of Ralph's society anymore, but rather make his own where he could make the decisions instead. Ralph's frustration also builds with the group, as not everybody can listen and obey to his commands like he would desire. Some people work, while others play, which causes Ralph to have distress about how to lead the group, which may fuel Jack to want to lead the group even more. The change in control is evident, but it might be too early to tell if there really will be a change in power in the group. I think Goldson is starting to add aspects of suspense into the story, which could maybe lead to dramatic irony later on.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that Jack's actions may be a foreshadow into him wanting to disunite from the others later on. It seems as if he's only focused on getting meat for the boys because he still wants to redeem himself for his earlier failure. He doesn't seem to mind the fact that the rest of the boys aren't helping out with shelter because all he thinks about is killing pigs just like Ralph mentioned.
DeleteOne of the lines that stood out to me was when Simon is helping out the littluns: “Then amid, the roar of bees in the afternoon sunlight, Simon found for them the fruit they could not reach, pulled off the choicest from the from up in the foliage, passed them back down to the endless, outstretched hands.(56) This quote focuses on the good nature of Simon who has been mostly irrelevant until now which is significant because the current tension between R alph and Jack. The recurring theme so far has been the struggle for power. As a result, I think what Golding is trying to do is make a case for Simon as a valuable leader and someone who has the morals to lead the group of boys. By taking out Piggy and focusing more on Simon towards the end of the chapter, Golding is trying to highlight the qualities of what could make Simon the best leader for the boys.
ReplyDeleteI agree Asrat, there seems to be less of an importance on Piggy in this chapter, but Simon. I also believe that the author was trying to prove the characteristics that Simon has that is leadership material. But we seem him as a nice person, but can a nice person be a good leader, or would he be more of a pushover then Ralph or Jack
DeleteThis chapter reveals the tension and frustrastion that comes with the struggle to maintain the society. Built up over days of hunting for pig-meat and building shelter, Jack and Ralph have a little dispute over food versus shelter. After arguing about whether shelter or food is more important, Ralph realizes "the best thing we can do is get ourselves rescued." (53). It is scary that Jack had to think about what the word "rescued" means, which stood out to me because i think Jack rather than Ralph is focusing on just surviving while Ralph still has hope in getting saved. This proposes the great question of which is more important? im not sure if it is realistic to get rescued at this point, but the leaders need to figure out their priorities. The difference between Jack and Ralph, is that for hunting Jack wants to be alone focusing solely on his prey (coincidently is a pig). Ralph on the other hand, has been building shelter with Simon and others, he wants everyone working together to build a home. Golding brings the two different views on survival to the story, almost distinguishing the characters for us. Cant one group hunt and one make shelter? Why is it so important they only do one at a time if they need both to survive?
ReplyDeleteIn this chapter instead of Ralph and Jack trying to come together to help the people on the island, they do the opposite and move further apart and work separately. But is there any work actually being done? During these meetings Jack and Ralph stated good ideas, and decided that each of them will control each of the important jobs: finding food (Ralph) and creating shelter (Jack). Therefore, why are they not succeeding to lead in those activities if they are the best leader, yet there has been complaints on the pace of these jobs occurring successfully? "'We want meat.' 'Well, we haven't got any yet. And we want shelters. Besides, the rest of your hunters came back hours ago. They've been swimming.'" (51), why is that both of these jobs are lacking to succeed? Throughout the chapter tensions between Jack and Ralph grows not because of what either of them do, but the things they don't do. Neither of them are able to control their groups as the leaders they were chosen to be, because they are not able to control the boys to stay on task. Instead, the boys in each of their groups wanders away to have fun. These are the essentials to survive and the less that is done the harder it becomes to survive. Instead of bumping heads, Ralph and Jack should put their heads together. Why was there an argument between who becomes leader, but now no one is leading the people the people are leading the leaders?
ReplyDeleteJack has a very big change in this chapter. " "[Jack] tried to convey the compulsion to track down and kill that was swallowing him up." Jack has become compelled by his need and want to kill, and he has lost his humanity. At first, he wanted to kill the pig to survive, but now he wants to kill the pig to prove something to the boys, and himself. The clothes the boys wear represent who they were back home, as well as their humanity. Jack started off by wearing this black choir tog, but now he wears nothing but his tattered shorts. This shows that he has literally stripped himself of his life back in England and who he was. So far in the story, Jack is the only character to have a very drastic change, but I am sure, the reality of being trapped on the island will eventually change all the boys, but I am not sure if that is good or bad.
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