Lily Cook In Chapter 5 of the book, the little kids are scared of a monster that inhabits the island. In a group meeting, the question is raised of where the monster lives, being that it would be unable to hide on the island during the day. One of the little kids thinks that maybe the monster lives in the ocean during the day and comes onto the island for the night. This terrifies the group, and the part that stood out to me is when Simon said "maybe it's only us" about the monster. I think that although this is a fleeting thought in the grande scheme of the chapter, it is important nonetheless, because it shows that Simon may think that the beast lies within the boys, and their imaginations. This shows that he thinks less about external forces causing harm to them, but internal ones, which I think are more powerful as well.
I agree with you completely Lily. I think that this is significant because it shows how the boys are losing their sense of normality. It seems as though they are letting their craziness and imagination get to them because they have nothing else to fear. Naturally, I believe, all humans must fear something in their lives. Since for the littluns it isn't really getting off the island, they rely on the monster. Plus, they're about 10years old and younger, so it is only normal to be scared of monster and the supernatural.
I agree that the internal forces are more powerful. I found it surprising that Piggy and the others did not agree with Simon. I wonder if this is because they are all afraid to accept the truth that they are no longer civilized. I think that this beast is imaginary- just the conscious of the boys acting up because of their actions.
My response was very similar to yours. I agree that the 'beast' is something inside the littleluns. I think that if the 'beast' resembles the beginning of fear, fear being something new to the littleluns. Then the Pigs might resemble fear for the older boys, and because fear is more normal for them they want to kill it instead of hide from it.
Throughout the book there has been evidence of character traits shifting and we have been exposed to more of a raw unkempt version of each character. This is the first chapter where I began to doubt the boy’s chances of survival. Ralph decides to hold a meeting after his walk on the island and his observations of how unorganized or disheveled things have become. The meeting quickly turns to ciaos and at one point during an argument with Jack Ralph says, “’Because the rules are the only things we’ve got!’… ‘Bollocks to the rules!’”. (page 91). This statement made me question the groups ability to stay together, it also identifies a significant shift in character traits for Jack who in the beginning of the book seemed to love order and rules. This chapter also related to our in class discussion because in several parts of the chapter Piggy and Ralph wonder “What’s grownups going to say?” (page 92). This proves that society is so harshly implanted into ones mind and so greatly effects their everyday actions that it is almost impossible to forget. I am interested to see why certain characters (Piggy and Ralph) seem to be so invested in what adults will think of their situation and other characters (Jack and most of the littleuns) are uninterested. Does it have to do with their upbringing or how society effected them?
Kate-I agree with your analysis, and the quotes you chose are definitely significant. Despite the fact that there is not a solid answer for the questions you posed, I believe that Piggy and Ralph are so invested in the adults opinions because they are the ones who hold the most hope that they will be rescued. And if they are rescued then adults will find out what was happening on the island, so they keep that in mind. That's just my opinion of course, it could be due to their upbringing or society's affect on them.
In chapter five Ralph finally decides to address the assembly with troubles that need to be fixed in the island. A passage that stood out to me was when Ralph was thinking of what he would say during the meeting, “…Ralph had to adjust his values. Piggy could think. He could go step by step inside that fat head of his, only Piggy was no chief” (78). Ralph wishes he could think like Piggy, which demonstrates that Ralph is no longer blinded by Piggy’s weakness. Because of this quote I think that Ralph may have been harsh towards Piggy since the beginning of the book because he feels threatened by the ideas that Piggy presents. However, this quote makes me wonder if Ralph does not view Piggy as a chief due to his appearance. At the end of this chapter Ralph is even about to give up his position of being chief and wishes that there were adults on the island to provide answers. I think that Ralph and Piggy want adults because they believe it is the only way to create a civilized community. Ralph questioning his role as chief shows that he cannot handle being the leader.
In Chapter 5, everything is getting very chaotic and you can already see this seperation between Ralph and the boys. The boys seem to disobey Ralph ever since Jack spoke up. Jack claims that Ralph is useless for anything so why was he chosen leader. He also claims that since they are strong and brave they should kill the so called "monster". "Bollocks to the rules! We're strong-we hunt! If there's a beast, we'll hunt it down! We'll close in and beat and beast and beat!" (91). This sentence is significant because it shows they boys losing their moralities and going towards savagery. Ralph can't even control them and this is a bad sign. Sooner or later, they will end up living without any type of rules, and having the urge to kill to solve all their problems. This shocks me because it has only been the 5th chapter of this book and the littuns want to kill already! This is ridiculous, really. I'm pretty sure if Jack wasn't there, everything would have been better. I wonder how it would be... will they still be going down this decline into savagery? I keep on posting this transition into savagery but its true! I would like to bring up this new topic... This topic of fear. In the beginning of this chapter, they discuss about the monster. To me, the monster is just an excuse to keep their mind off of reality. Naturally, I believe, all humans must fear something in their lives. Since for the littluns are not really concerned of getting off the island, they rely on the monster. The monster is an allegory for corruption. This monster will make them crazy. They will make themselves believe the monster is real, and it will eventually make them go nuts. They are setting themselves up with their own trap.
I agree that all this talk about the monster will most likely drive the littluns insane. I also agree that if Jack weren't there, everyone wouldn't think that somehow killing this monster would help things. Everyone is scared, and Jack is using their fear to rile them up. This urge to kill is a direct result of the fear created by their immaturity. Some of these children are as young as six, so naturally, they are going to get scared when left with no adults on an island. They're fear created the monster, and they are dealing with that fear by getting angry and wanting to kill.
In chapter 5, Ralph's frustration with the group definitely shows. Ralph says to the group "We need an assembly. Not for fun. Not for laughing and falling off the log- the group of littluns on the twister giggles and looked at each other- "not for making jokes, or for cleverness. Not for these things. But to put things straight." (79)At this point Ralph is getting frustrated at the fact that no one does what they discuss at meetings. They don't build shelters, they don't gather food and water and they neglected to keep the signal fire going which made them not become rescued. Ralph feels like he is on his own and no one listens in the meetings anymore. Yes, they decide things during them, but outside of the meetings nothing actually gets done. I would get annoyed too if I was in Ralph's position. I wonder if the group purposefully ignores Ralph's ideas and lectures or if they just don't think of him as a real authority figure so they just don't care.
I agree with you Emma. You can see in this chapter how frustrated Ralph is about the lack of productivity and cooperation in the group. I think the group does not want Ralph as an authority figure; they don't want any authority figure at all. The reason they elected him leader in the beginning was because they were scared and they still obeyed basic laws of society, which includes having a leader to help guide them. But now, they have distanced themselves from their civilized lives, and as they grow more and more distant from civilization, they become closer and closer to savagery. This savagery feels good because there are no adults to tell them what to do and they are free to do as they please. But they are reminded of civilization and rules when Ralph tells to do work, which is not something they enjoy or want.
One quote that really stood out to me was when Simon said, "'Maybe there is a beast....maybe it's only us.'" (80). This quote stood out to me, because Simon is the first character in the story to see the beast is not another creature, but rather a component of human nature that lives within them. Simon exemplifies Golding's main ideas about fear and evil. Golding is trying to say that the only evil we have to fear is the one inside of us, and that is exactly what is happening to the boys. They are being taken over by their savage instincts, which live inside of them since savagery is somethings humans naturally turn to in times of survival. The boys are starting to fear each other, and themselves. A major problem occurs when they disregard Simon's idea about the beast being the boys, because this shows that they are blind to the truth. Not only are they blind to the truth, but they are too stubborn to even think about the possibility of it being true. This blindness, like we saw in Araby, leads to a very sad life where one is unable to make decisions for them self.
I completely agree with you Aleeza. Simon's idea that the beast is a component of human nature shows that he knows how scary we can be at times, and that the only real thing that we have to fear is other human beings.
I think you make a very valid point Aleeza. Simon is hinting at, in this chapter, that the beast may not be an external force, but actually symbolize human desires for violence and power. We can see this by the way Jack keeps introducing the idea that there might be a beast to keep the boys fearful, thus keeping power.
I agree with you Aleeza. Simon is bringing this new idea about humans to the other boys. I think it is hard for the others to except it because they are afraid of the idea of a monster within.
Throughout chapter five Goulding addresses the theme of fear several times, the most interesting quote about fear that stood out to me is, "If you're scared of someone you hate him but you can't stop thinking about him" (93). When Piggy said this I couldn't stop thinking about how true that is. For example when you're a little kid you might be afraid of the boogeyman (or something else), til the point where you despise the idea of the boogeyman so much that you can't stop thinking about him. I thought it was interesting to see Piggy voice his opinions about Jack, but it's clear to see that he won't be getting over his fear of Jack anytime soon especially if Ralph decides to step down as leader.
I think that that's a good point. It's weird how you think about someone you hate so much. I also think that the fear in the story comes from themselves in a way. Even if the beast is real, they create this image of a horrible beast in their heads, and they don't stop thinking about what potentially could happen to them. The most negative thoughts come into their heads, about something they don't even know the truth about. The fear really comes from someones imagination, rather than the actual person themselves, which is why you can't stop thinking about your fears.
"What I mean is.....maybe it's only us." (80) I found this quote to be very interesting. Simon brings up the thought that maybe the beast on the island doesn't actually exist, but that they are the beast themselves, instilling fear into their own hearts. People on the island have already been influenced by themselves, like Jack almost becoming insane because of his desire to hunt down a pig. Maybe Simon is meaning that we tend to put our fears into other things and blame our problems on the unknown, but the real source of our displeasure is ourselves, coming from the monsters we really are. This also reminded me of the smoke monster from Lost. On this island there was a mysterious smoke monster that instilled fear into the whole community. In the end it ended up being a supernatural being that was supposed to represent something similar to Cain and Abel. Maybe Goulding is referencing something supernatural with this beast, and maybe there is more to the island than we know.
I agree with your explanation of this quote. Simon is the first character to actually not see the beast as an external evil but as a factor of human nature. Although all the other boys laugh off his idea, Simon makes an interesting point. Simon basically believes that the beast is a product from the boy's imaginations. Adding on to your comment, I believe that it was the boys themselves who are the beast and are the ones capable of committing acts of evil.
I agree with you on how maybe the real "beast" is actually the boys themselves, because it reminded me of a quote that stated," The real monsters are humans." Because humans are easily influence, and can easily influence others. So if one member in the group has fear, then the others will also have this fear in their hearts.This sometimes leading to a imaginary thing to blame for their fear.
OLIVIA SHLANSKY By the end of chapter 5, the main idea we're left with is the beast. When Simon says, “What I mean is . . . maybe it’s only us”, I think he is trying to say that maybe the beast is the boys' imagination. These young boys are stranded on an island without any adults, let alone their parents. By creating "the beast", the boys are able to be scared, without directly showing that they are scared to be alone. Also, I think Simon might be trying to say that humans, by nature, create evil things. It didn't take very long for the boys too hook onto the idea of a beast, which is of course a symbol of evil. This line in the context is changing the way we view the boys. Now, we don't just see them has these stupid little boys who are scared of a story, but boys who are probably battling inner "beasts".
Interesting point, Olivia. I liked your idea that the "beast" may have been created to let the boys be scared. Although being frightened isn't exactly a pleasant experience, if you're with the right people it can lead to a feeling of being comforted and reassured. More than anything I think these boys need an all knowing, guiding force. Although they have leaders, these leaders have fears of their own and could easily break down. I think that it is true that the boys unconsciously are seeking this comfort, something they are hoping to find as a result of being scared by this "beast."
"Ralph... understood how much he disliked perpetually flicking the tangled hair out of his eyes."
As the book continues into the 5th chapter we begin to see a change in Ralph. Instead of the confident boy we witnessed in chapter 1, we now see a deflated Ralph that can't seem to take control of anybody. He even mentions to Simon and Piggy that he was even thinking about resigning. Golding portrays this change by the difference in the boy's appearance. The beaten down "tangled hair" boy seems to have replaced the "fair haired" boy that the group picked to lead them on the island. The word tangle can connote conflict, or fighting, which is very true to what is happening on the island. The boys cannot not seem to agree on a single idea. Ralph believes that the other kids aren't pulling their weight, Jack conflict with Piggy is growing by the chapter etc. I can only wonder if these disputes will settle down, so they can work together and get off the island.
Very good points Isaiah. i agree with this and think that Ralph is certainly losing a following very quickly. I think the children either don't respect him as a leader, not following orders and find the leadership they think they want withen Jack. i also see Ralph deteriorating as he becomes more effected by the island with his growing, mess hair. i think his connections to his past and his role as a leader are falling appart as well.
I think I might be over analyzing this, but one thing I notice was when the conch was also changing the way it look,"Exposure to the air had bleached the yellow and pink to near white,and transparency."(78)Lately William Golding has been repeating often the changes the boys have been going through, and it reminded me what Jack said,"Like things trying to look like something else."(63)The boys don't even recognize themselves anymore,and are becoming their worst enemy. But also the transparency part of the first quote might mean that after being so long on the island another side of the boys are being seen, that one couldn't see back home like Jack and his obsession of wanting to kill a pig. But almost everything on this island is changing.
I don't think you are over analyzing it. I think that that is a great observation that I hadn't noticed util you pointed it out. Everything seems to be changing. In the beginning, the colors were beautiful and vibrant and now they are dull and pasty. I think that this could be a resemblance of what the boys are going through. They are being corrupted and things are no longer as great as they seemed. Their thoughts of being rescued are decreasing and their ideals are changing. The boys are not only changing in physical appearance, like the shell, but they are changing mentally and emotionally. There is more to what it seems.
As the digression of civilization seems to continue on the island so does the respect for leaders ship and order. Although the children still maintain some form of morality they also begin to not see the importance of the conch or a leader.As jack speaks during Ralph's meeting he "Was the first to make himself heard. He had not got the conch and thus spoke against the rules; but nobody minded." (109) These once hopeful symbol in the novel was just disregarded by another leader displaying to the younger kids how little authority on the island really means. Although it is so extremely important they only see Ralph as a reprimander rather then someone who does anything for the group like jack. If Ralph's authority becomes any less respected while the island become complete chaos or ruled by a new leader.
I think that Ralph represents a figure similar to all the boys' parents and as they have all strayed from their societal norms, they want to distance themselves further and further away from parental control, and therefore further and further away from Ralph and his authority. Jack is wild and crazy and attracts the rest of the boys on the island; he resembles the exact opposite of a parental figure. As most children would hate to admit, Ralph, or a parental role, is often correct and has the best intention with the best outcome. But as Ralph continues to become more and more disregarded and Jack's power and authority on the island grows, any chance of focused order with good intentions will become lost.
I agree and also believe that it is not solely Ralph who represents parental control on the island. When roger was throwing the stones on the sand and yet could not bring himself to hit the space occupied by the little boy he displayed how strong his connection with society still is. Its not only that Ralph represents there lives back home but also parts of their daily actions on the island.
In chapter 5 they mostly talk about the beast, yet we still don’t know if it’s real or not. I think that the beast is not real, that instead it is a symbol Golding is using to represent evil and danger, and with that fear. I don’t think it’s a mistake that in chapter 4 the littluns are represented to us as a blank slate and that is chapter 5 they are the only ones scared of the beast. In society kids are introduced to fear at a slow pace, for example you parents know not to show you something as scary as a horror movie when your five. Instead they read you a mystery novel, this introduces the idea of evil to you in small portions. On the island the littleluns are thrown into danger, and aren’t able to grasp the idea of it. They are overwhelmed with all these new emotions. I also noticed how when jack was talking about this fear, his hair kept falling in front of his eyes. “It’s kind of deciding on the fear.’ The hair was creeping into his eyes again. ‘We’ve got to talk about this fear and decide there’s nothing in it.” I think that his hair is a symbol of his biggest fear, never getting off the island and what he will become if he stays on the island.
Ella, I agree with you strongly about the snake and how it isn't a real thing, but instead represents a fear the boys share, especially the littluns. It is interesting throughout the book to see how the littluns react to certain things compared to the older boys because they have spent less time alive in society, and are therefore influenced less and have less pre-existing morals to be erased by life on the island than the older boys. I think you can be more specific about the fear that the beast represents though, because I think Golding means for the beast to symbolize a certain kind of fear. In my opinion, the beast represents the boys' fear of being trapped on the island forever, and eventually dieing there. I disagree, however, about Jack's hair. I don't think Jack is afraid of what he will become if he stays on the island because the person he is transforming into on the island is his true self, as opposed to the one who came over on the plane.
This chapter has many different, developing ideas in it. "someone had leaned too far back and the log whipped and thrown half a dozen boys backwards ... yet now, he was, no one had had the wit-- not himself nor Jack, nor Piggy-- to bring a stone and wedge the thing..."(77). I thought that this line really underlined the idea of the boys leaving civilization and entering into a new state of living. I am sure that if the boys were at home, some one would have done this already and the problem would be fixed. But the idea that Ralph has not done it, nor has anyone else, makes me think that they are entering a place where they only look out for themselves and don't help the community. Later in the quote Ralph ponders why he has not fixed this and I think it is because he slowly entering a savage stage or just a stage of forgetting what was done in England.
Good response Lila. I agree with your evidence in the context of your quote but I think that society is mush more engrained in their minds then you think. I also think that there is a difference between their previous roles in society and the roles they now form (which is still based on society).
I chose this line too. I think all the boys are blinded by a need for power on this island and don't see what needs to be done right in front of them. This is also what led to the fire burning out and two leaders opposing each other. I don't believe that Ralph is in the savage state but that he just became blinded by what was all around him in this new state of power. Instead of becoming a true leader he forgot about basics needed for a stable life.
"''Course there isn't a beast in the forest. How could there be? What would a beast eat?' 'Pig.' 'We eat pig'" (83). In these lines, it became obvious to me that the children themselves are the beast and what they fear is simply themselves. They do not necessarily fear each other, but rather each individual fears their own self and what savage cruelty that self might be capable of. Maybe the fear of this "beast" is what is keeping any sort of order from completely falling apart. As soon as they discover there is no beast, and it is they who are the beast, they will have absolutely nothing to fear. Chaos can be prevented and havoc will not be reeked just as long as they keep this fictitious fear alive in their heads and know that there is something holding them back, something more powerful. But when that barrier is broken, all hell will break loose on the island.
This chapter has definitely been the most interesting for me so far. I spent a lot of time thinking about consequence, and how they go hand in hand with having rules. I think that one of the biggest flaws that this society has so far is that there are no consequences or punishments for when someone breaks a law. In response to a rule that Simon broke, Ralph says sternly, "Well, don't do it again. Understand?" (92) Regardless of the tone of voice, it seems to me that at this stage in their society's development, the only consequence someone has to face when doing something wrong is a harsh scolding. I've always believed that the only way to learn a lesson is by making a mistake and learning from it through punishment and doing something you don't want to do. While anyone can sit through a scolding from someone after doing something incorrect, it can be easily disregarded. I think that besides these rules, the last piece this "government" needs to succeed and function properly is another set of rules, that can be applied when someone does something wrong. Otherwise, how can the citizens be taught not to make that mistake again?
In chapter five, I began to see slight connections to the boys' past lives. "For now the littleuns were no longer silent. They were reminded of their personal sorrows; and perhaps felt themselves to share in a sorrow that was universal." (87)This shows that the littleuns were reminded of their life before the island and how it has changed during the island. The fact that they are always so happy yet they broke out in a harmonious cry reminds me that they are still young. The boys cannot be asked to do things they arent used to. They are almost useless. I think that they just feel the need to be loved like they were at home. I think that that is their universal sorrow. They are all crying about the same thing.
After reading chapter 5 of "Lord of the Flies", one main thing stood out to me: the growing restlessness of the boys on the island. The group of boys as a whole, especially Ralph and Jack, their leaders, are becoming tired of island life and are getting more and more impatient as the chapter progresses. This can be seen when Ralph is examining the conch: "Exposure to the air had bleached the yellow and pink to near-white, and transparency" (78). This quote is significant because the color of the conch, especially the pink which Golding repeats many times throughout the book, is fading, and if the pink color represents hope, then it signifies a loss of hope among the boys. Also, the conch is the main symbol of power in the book, and it becoming transparent is Golding's way of showing how power as well is falling apart amongst the boys, and now the boys can "look" right through the power figures. Another quote that shows this lack of hope and growing despair is when Golding writes: "The world, that understandable and lawful world, was now slipping away. Once there was this and that; and now- and the ship was gone" (91). I think the ship appearing and leaving in chapter 4 was a metaphor for the boys' hope, sanity, and last chances at a peaceful society. When the ship disappeared again over the horizon, it took with it the peace that had existed on the island before, and left the boys and their society on the brink of collapse
During the assembly in the beginning of the chapter, Ralph proclaims, "Now I say this and make it a rule, because I'm chief: We won't have a fire anywhere but on the mountain. Ever" (81). He knows that this will not be a popular decision, and there may even be some disadvantages of it, but it also serves to demonstrate his power as chief. There has been a lot of struggle over who really is in charge of the group, and this is one of the first times where Ralph really takes charge. If he is able to keep this up and control the group so they at least listen to him a little, he will have a much better chance of coming out on top in this ongoing power struggle between him and Jack.
Ralph took me by surprise in this section. Since the beginning of the book, I assumed he was just an arrogant and spoiled child who wanted to control others. However, I now see that he is a very capable leader. Unlike Jack, he attempts to maintain a civil society, and truly feels concern for the other boys. I think this will help him later on in the story to maintain his status as cheif.
Right at the beginning of chapter 5, Ralph hits a turning point in the book. He comes to the realization that Piggy has the brains and he doesnt. Although, Ralph knows his likability will keep in on top as a leader, he still has to step up to make sure tasks get completed around the island. Ralph preaches to the group, "We need an assembly. Not for fun. Not for laughing and falling off the log...But to put things straight." (79). This quote really shows how Ralph's mindset has changed while living on the island, he is stepping up to the plate and becoming the adult the kids need to control them. Ralph made sure to address every issue on the island, from the importance of the fire to retrieving water in the coconuts. And by stepping into the triangle, even Piggy wanted to be a part of this assembly, proving Ralph is losing his biased edge. On the other hand, Jack resorts to childs play by blaming everyone's fears on the innocent littleuns, accusing them of being the problem. I think this is ridiculous because he is older than them yet yells at them terribly, leaving the littleuns to be scared of Jack himself.
At the very beginning of this chapter Ralph thinks within himself about the state of the boys as a group or society. He views a faulty seat and speaks against it, " he now saw, no one had the wit... to bring a stone and wedge the thing. So they would continue enduring the ill-balanced twister, because, because..." (77). As Ralph reflects on the society he sees all the silly mistakes not only the boys, but he also have made. He uses this rocky seat as a metaphor for life describing it as an "ill-balanced twister" which people endure because of the lack of wit they have. Golding uses this line to express how the boys, clouded by their own selfishness and ideas had not seen the hold picture and the little things that could help over time. They endure this twister because they don't know how to control and create a group that is productive and helpful. The men, especially the leaders, in this story have tried to inflict control as their idea at a society, instead counter acting each other and missing oppurtunities. Golding is also questioning why we do it all, why do we try to have leadership and endure pain in life? This question is essential when you think about all the characters and their motives.
I kept in mind the colors that Golding mentions from class discussions and kept looking out for the mention of the color pink and noticed an interesting pattern. When Ralph was pacing around the shore his shorts were tightly folded on his thighs which were "making an uncomfortable, pink area on the front of his thighs"(76). As we spoke in class, this could be a sign of living, flesh, and maybe even innocence. However, later on in the chapter, while the trending topics(the beats, being organized and not fooling around) were being discussed the conch was no longer referred as pink but as the "white conch"(85). I thought this was significant because after Ralph stated what he had to say, people were shouting back at him, and no longer listening and obeying him. In my eyes, this meant that just as Ralph was no longer in control, the conch also had no meaning or usefulness to it.
Good Job Rosana I agree with you I also get from that that the conch isn't a sign of innocence or respect anymore its just there. Before it was respect and values but now the meaning and use of the conch has gone away because of the kids adaptability to the island and their behavior.
I agree Rosana this shift in color was surprising especially of the conch. The pink conch symbolized the authority Ralph had over everyone and Golding made it seem because Ralph had blew into it so many times that it faded white, and this reflects the importance. I also feel that the white conch can represent his innocence because he is so young that boys are not going to follow his rules because they are used to adult authority and unsure if he is able to "govern" them.
The Quote that most stood out to me from the reading was when Simon in chapter five says, "What I mean is . . . maybe it’s only us”. He says this during the meeting where the boys consider the question of the beast. One littlun proposed the horrifying idea that the beast may be hiding in the ocean during the day and come out only at night, the boys now start arguing if the beast might actually exist. Simon, also proposes that the beast is only the boys themselves. The other boys laugh off Simon’s suggestion, but I believe that Simon’s words are essential to Golding’s point that innate human evil exists. Simon is the first character in the novel to see the beast not as an external force but as a figment of human nature. Simon doesnt fully understand his own idea, but he is right because the monster is eventually the kids which is what they are becoming by being uncivilized and without order.
An interesting line in this chapter was when Jack held the conch and said, "Am I a hunter or am I not?"" they nodded, simply. He was a hunter all right. No one doubted that" I saw this as Golding's way of showing Jacks power and in this case seemingly superior power over Ralph. I saw that though Ralph is considered leader among the many children on this island his power is not matching to the power of Jack. The interesting thing is that Jack is being backed by the other majority of the hunters. To me this shows that people want him more than Ralph and that is really what Golding is trying to get across. This seems like an point that Golding is trying to make. He is saying that the people of societies are putting their leaders into power. In this case, it doesn't matter if the power elected is good or not, it is just wanted by the people.
Yes totally, Ralph is considered the leader but Jack has this power to control people. It is because he has the hunters on his side but also I think it is because he is pushy, and most times when a person is pushy they will get attention and recognition even if they have a lousy point or are not correct. -Marcello Brattesani
In this chapter Ralph finally realizes that there is no order on this island, but chaos no one is trying to help the group, but worried of only themselves. When Ralph walks on the beach he realizes that he needs to become an actual leader and show some dominance, he states: "I've been alone. By myself I went, thinking what's what. I know what we need. An assembly to put things straight. And first of all I'm speaking." (79). At the end of the quote he says "I'm speaking" it gave the reader the compassion to empathize for Ralph in which he was trying to do his best to restore order, but no one would help with the necessities to survive. But, instead of continuing this leadership qualities he decides to almost give up his authority. Why does he doubt himself as a leader, although his followers are unable to comply with his demands? It is not his fault that they don't see the importance of survival especially through making fires and building shelter.
In this chapter, my view of the boys shifted. Previously while reading, I had detested Jack and Ralph for constantly mocking Piggy. They seemed to me to be arrogant dictators whose minds were consumed with greed for power. However, chapter 5 made me realize that the boys are far more complicated then that. Ralph begins to let down his persona of being all knowing, stating to Piggy "We're all drifting and things are going rotten. At home there was always a grownup... How I wish" (94). This quote showed a different side of Ralph. He truly doesn't only care for himself, and he showed this by expressing his distress over how badly things had become. While reading, I forgot how very young these boys really are. To be on an island with no grown ups and no idea whether or not they will be rescued is terrifying. I now understand that Ralph and Jack are not only consumed by the need for power, they also have other parts of them that care for the group.
I think this change in character is a very interesting point to bring up. At the same time I think that Ralph's new softer side could be a bad thing as it shows he has less confidence in the hopes of survival for the boys. To be on an island this young is very sad but I still think Ralph should still remain confident in their chances because if he resigns as leader, it could just lead to more anxiety and commotion for the littluns. Ralph's new change in character can also be viewed as a bad thing for the future of the boys.
A line that stood out to me as I read this chapter was "The world, that understandable and lawful world, was now slipping away. Once there was this and that; and now- and the ship was gone" (91. This quote shows how once again the boys are faced with the idea that they may never be saved. The lawful world and the ship both represent parts of the civilized world which the boys hope to return to but this quote shows how this may indeed never happen. The boys are slowly but surely losing hope of getting rescued day by day.
Asrat, i agree with you in saying the boys are losing hope but i still think it is divided amongst the groups. Ralph will always believe there is a chance to be saved, however time does seem to be running out. Do you think it is still possible for the boys to be saved? Maybe if they all work together and create a well-functioning society, they might have a chance?
I agree that their losing hope that they're going to get recused. I think that this is the author's way of saying that they are moving towards Jack's side and drifting from Ralph's mentality and leadership. They all just want to survive now.
Right at the beginning of chapter 5, Ralph hits a turning point in the book. He comes to the realization that Piggy has the brains and he doesnt. Although, Ralph knows his likability will keep in on top as a leader, he still has to step up to make sure tasks get completed around the island. Ralph preaches to the group, "We need an assembly. Not for fun. Not for laughing and falling off the log...But to put things straight." (79). This quote really shows how Ralph's mindset has changed while living on the island, he is stepping up to the plate and becoming the adult the kids need to control them. Ralph made sure to address every issue on the island, from the importance of the fire to retrieving water in the coconuts. And by stepping into the triangle, even Piggy wanted to be a part of this assembly, proving Ralph is losing his biased edge. On the other hand, Jack resorts to childs play by blaming everyone's fears on the innocent littleuns, accusing them of being the problem. I think this is ridiculous because he is older than them yet yells at them terribly, leaving the littleuns to be scared of Jack himself.
What perked my interest was when Piggy said "We know what goes on and if there's something wrong, there's someone to put it right." I found this quote qiute reasurring expecially if I were a littlun because it lets you know that everything will be okay. This quote when I first read it also made me unsure that Piggy meant any of this and was just trying to reasure the littluns and himself. I think that he is scared and is trying to convince himself out of it. For example when the ghost is mentioned in this chapter Piggy is really quick to reflect and say that he doesn't believe in ghosts. I did not feel any confidence coming from him when he stated that. But I felt a bit more when he talks about someone to put it right. -Marcello Brattesani
The quote that stood out to me was, "Clamor rose at once. Everyone had built the shelters" (80). With the whole beast scare, the boys really pick up their act. And as the idea of the beast increasingly fills the boys with dread, Jack and the hunters manipulate the boys’ fear of the beast to their own advantage. Jack continues to hint that the beast exists when he knows that it probably does not—a manipulation that leaves the rest of the group fearful and more willing to cede power to Jack and his hunters, more willing to overlook barbarism on Jack’s part for the sake of maintaining the “safety” of the group. In this way, the beast indirectly becomes one of Jack’s primary sources of power. At the same time, Jack effectively enables the boys themselves to act as the beast—to express the instinct for savagery that civilization has previously held in check. Because that instinct is natural and present within each human being, Golding asserts that we are all capable of becoming the beast.
Lily Cook
ReplyDeleteIn Chapter 5 of the book, the little kids are scared of a monster that inhabits the island. In a group meeting, the question is raised of where the monster lives, being that it would be unable to hide on the island during the day. One of the little kids thinks that maybe the monster lives in the ocean during the day and comes onto the island for the night. This terrifies the group, and the part that stood out to me is when Simon said "maybe it's only us" about the monster. I think that although this is a fleeting thought in the grande scheme of the chapter, it is important nonetheless, because it shows that Simon may think that the beast lies within the boys, and their imaginations. This shows that he thinks less about external forces causing harm to them, but internal ones, which I think are more powerful as well.
I agree with you completely Lily. I think that this is significant because it shows how the boys are losing their sense of normality. It seems as though they are letting their craziness and imagination get to them because they have nothing else to fear. Naturally, I believe, all humans must fear something in their lives. Since for the littluns it isn't really getting off the island, they rely on the monster. Plus, they're about 10years old and younger, so it is only normal to be scared of monster and the supernatural.
DeleteI agree that the internal forces are more powerful. I found it surprising that Piggy and the others did not agree with Simon. I wonder if this is because they are all afraid to accept the truth that they are no longer civilized. I think that this beast is imaginary- just the conscious of the boys acting up because of their actions.
DeleteMy response was very similar to yours. I agree that the 'beast' is something inside the littleluns. I think that if the 'beast' resembles the beginning of fear, fear being something new to the littleluns. Then the Pigs might resemble fear for the older boys, and because fear is more normal for them they want to kill it instead of hide from it.
DeleteThroughout the book there has been evidence of character traits shifting and we have been exposed to more of a raw unkempt version of each character. This is the first chapter where I began to doubt the boy’s chances of survival. Ralph decides to hold a meeting after his walk on the island and his observations of how unorganized or disheveled things have become. The meeting quickly turns to ciaos and at one point during an argument with Jack Ralph says, “’Because the rules are the only things we’ve got!’… ‘Bollocks to the rules!’”. (page 91). This statement made me question the groups ability to stay together, it also identifies a significant shift in character traits for Jack who in the beginning of the book seemed to love order and rules. This chapter also related to our in class discussion because in several parts of the chapter Piggy and Ralph wonder “What’s grownups going to say?” (page 92). This proves that society is so harshly implanted into ones mind and so greatly effects their everyday actions that it is almost impossible to forget. I am interested to see why certain characters (Piggy and Ralph) seem to be so invested in what adults will think of their situation and other characters (Jack and most of the littleuns) are uninterested. Does it have to do with their upbringing or how society effected them?
ReplyDeleteLily Cook
DeleteKate-I agree with your analysis, and the quotes you chose are definitely significant. Despite the fact that there is not a solid answer for the questions you posed, I believe that Piggy and Ralph are so invested in the adults opinions because they are the ones who hold the most hope that they will be rescued. And if they are rescued then adults will find out what was happening on the island, so they keep that in mind. That's just my opinion of course, it could be due to their upbringing or society's affect on them.
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ReplyDeleteIn chapter five Ralph finally decides to address the assembly with troubles that need to be fixed in the island. A passage that stood out to me was when Ralph was thinking of what he would say during the meeting, “…Ralph had to adjust his values. Piggy could think. He could go step by step inside that fat head of his, only Piggy was no chief” (78). Ralph wishes he could think like Piggy, which demonstrates that Ralph is no longer blinded by Piggy’s weakness. Because of this quote I think that Ralph may have been harsh towards Piggy since the beginning of the book because he feels threatened by the ideas that Piggy presents. However, this quote makes me wonder if Ralph does not view Piggy as a chief due to his appearance. At the end of this chapter Ralph is even about to give up his position of being chief and wishes that there were adults on the island to provide answers. I think that Ralph and Piggy want adults because they believe it is the only way to create a civilized community. Ralph questioning his role as chief shows that he cannot handle being the leader.
ReplyDeleteIn Chapter 5, everything is getting very chaotic and you can already see this seperation between Ralph and the boys. The boys seem to disobey Ralph ever since Jack spoke up. Jack claims that Ralph is useless for anything so why was he chosen leader. He also claims that since they are strong and brave they should kill the so called "monster". "Bollocks to the rules! We're strong-we hunt! If there's a beast, we'll hunt it down! We'll close in and beat and beast and beat!" (91). This sentence is significant because it shows they boys losing their moralities and going towards savagery. Ralph can't even control them and this is a bad sign. Sooner or later, they will end up living without any type of rules, and having the urge to kill to solve all their problems. This shocks me because it has only been the 5th chapter of this book and the littuns want to kill already! This is ridiculous, really. I'm pretty sure if Jack wasn't there, everything would have been better. I wonder how it would be... will they still be going down this decline into savagery? I keep on posting this transition into savagery but its true! I would like to bring up this new topic... This topic of fear. In the beginning of this chapter, they discuss about the monster. To me, the monster is just an excuse to keep their mind off of reality. Naturally, I believe, all humans must fear something in their lives. Since for the littluns are not really concerned of getting off the island, they rely on the monster. The monster is an allegory for corruption. This monster will make them crazy. They will make themselves believe the monster is real, and it will eventually make them go nuts. They are setting themselves up with their own trap.
ReplyDeleteI agree that all this talk about the monster will most likely drive the littluns insane. I also agree that if Jack weren't there, everyone wouldn't think that somehow killing this monster would help things. Everyone is scared, and Jack is using their fear to rile them up. This urge to kill is a direct result of the fear created by their immaturity. Some of these children are as young as six, so naturally, they are going to get scared when left with no adults on an island. They're fear created the monster, and they are dealing with that fear by getting angry and wanting to kill.
DeleteIn chapter 5, Ralph's frustration with the group definitely shows. Ralph says to the group "We need an assembly. Not for fun. Not for laughing and falling off the log- the group of littluns on the twister giggles and looked at each other- "not for making jokes, or for cleverness. Not for these things. But to put things straight." (79)At this point Ralph is getting frustrated at the fact that no one does what they discuss at meetings. They don't build shelters, they don't gather food and water and they neglected to keep the signal fire going which made them not become rescued. Ralph feels like he is on his own and no one listens in the meetings anymore. Yes, they decide things during them, but outside of the meetings nothing actually gets done. I would get annoyed too if I was in Ralph's position. I wonder if the group purposefully ignores Ralph's ideas and lectures or if they just don't think of him as a real authority figure so they just don't care.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you Emma. You can see in this chapter how frustrated Ralph is about the lack of productivity and cooperation in the group. I think the group does not want Ralph as an authority figure; they don't want any authority figure at all. The reason they elected him leader in the beginning was because they were scared and they still obeyed basic laws of society, which includes having a leader to help guide them. But now, they have distanced themselves from their civilized lives, and as they grow more and more distant from civilization, they become closer and closer to savagery. This savagery feels good because there are no adults to tell them what to do and they are free to do as they please. But they are reminded of civilization and rules when Ralph tells to do work, which is not something they enjoy or want.
DeleteOne quote that really stood out to me was when Simon said, "'Maybe there is a beast....maybe it's only us.'" (80). This quote stood out to me, because Simon is the first character in the story to see the beast is not another creature, but rather a component of human nature that lives within them. Simon exemplifies Golding's main ideas about fear and evil. Golding is trying to say that the only evil we have to fear is the one inside of us, and that is exactly what is happening to the boys. They are being taken over by their savage instincts, which live inside of them since savagery is somethings humans naturally turn to in times of survival. The boys are starting to fear each other, and themselves. A major problem occurs when they disregard Simon's idea about the beast being the boys, because this shows that they are blind to the truth. Not only are they blind to the truth, but they are too stubborn to even think about the possibility of it being true. This blindness, like we saw in Araby, leads to a very sad life where one is unable to make decisions for them self.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with you Aleeza. Simon's idea that the beast is a component of human nature shows that he knows how scary we can be at times, and that the only real thing that we have to fear is other human beings.
DeleteI think you make a very valid point Aleeza. Simon is hinting at, in this chapter, that the beast may not be an external force, but actually symbolize human desires for violence and power. We can see this by the way Jack keeps introducing the idea that there might be a beast to keep the boys fearful, thus keeping power.
DeleteI agree with you Aleeza. Simon is bringing this new idea about humans to the other boys. I think it is hard for the others to except it because they are afraid of the idea of a monster within.
DeleteThroughout chapter five Goulding addresses the theme of fear several times, the most interesting quote about fear that stood out to me is, "If you're scared of someone you hate him but you can't stop thinking about him" (93). When Piggy said this I couldn't stop thinking about how true that is. For example when you're a little kid you might be afraid of the boogeyman (or something else), til the point where you despise the idea of the boogeyman so much that you can't stop thinking about him. I thought it was interesting to see Piggy voice his opinions about Jack, but it's clear to see that he won't be getting over his fear of Jack anytime soon especially if Ralph decides to step down as leader.
ReplyDeleteI think that that's a good point. It's weird how you think about someone you hate so much. I also think that the fear in the story comes from themselves in a way. Even if the beast is real, they create this image of a horrible beast in their heads, and they don't stop thinking about what potentially could happen to them. The most negative thoughts come into their heads, about something they don't even know the truth about. The fear really comes from someones imagination, rather than the actual person themselves, which is why you can't stop thinking about your fears.
Delete"What I mean is.....maybe it's only us." (80) I found this quote to be very interesting. Simon brings up the thought that maybe the beast on the island doesn't actually exist, but that they are the beast themselves, instilling fear into their own hearts. People on the island have already been influenced by themselves, like Jack almost becoming insane because of his desire to hunt down a pig. Maybe Simon is meaning that we tend to put our fears into other things and blame our problems on the unknown, but the real source of our displeasure is ourselves, coming from the monsters we really are. This also reminded me of the smoke monster from Lost. On this island there was a mysterious smoke monster that instilled fear into the whole community. In the end it ended up being a supernatural being that was supposed to represent something similar to Cain and Abel. Maybe Goulding is referencing something supernatural with this beast, and maybe there is more to the island than we know.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your explanation of this quote. Simon is the first character to actually not see the beast as an external evil but as a factor of human nature. Although all the other boys laugh off his idea, Simon makes an interesting point. Simon basically believes that the beast is a product from the boy's imaginations. Adding on to your comment, I believe that it was the boys themselves who are the beast and are the ones capable of committing acts of evil.
DeleteI agree with you on how maybe the real "beast" is actually the boys themselves, because it reminded me of a quote that stated," The real monsters are humans." Because humans are easily influence, and can easily influence others. So if one member in the group has fear, then the others will also have this fear in their hearts.This sometimes leading to a imaginary thing to blame for their fear.
DeleteOLIVIA SHLANSKY
ReplyDeleteBy the end of chapter 5, the main idea we're left with is the beast. When Simon says, “What I mean is . . . maybe it’s only us”, I think he is trying to say that maybe the beast is the boys' imagination. These young boys are stranded on an island without any adults, let alone their parents. By creating "the beast", the boys are able to be scared, without directly showing that they are scared to be alone. Also, I think Simon might be trying to say that humans, by nature, create evil things. It didn't take very long for the boys too hook onto the idea of a beast, which is of course a symbol of evil. This line in the context is changing the way we view the boys. Now, we don't just see them has these stupid little boys who are scared of a story, but boys who are probably battling inner "beasts".
Interesting point, Olivia. I liked your idea that the "beast" may have been created to let the boys be scared. Although being frightened isn't exactly a pleasant experience, if you're with the right people it can lead to a feeling of being comforted and reassured. More than anything I think these boys need an all knowing, guiding force. Although they have leaders, these leaders have fears of their own and could easily break down. I think that it is true that the boys unconsciously are seeking this comfort, something they are hoping to find as a result of being scared by this "beast."
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ReplyDelete"Ralph... understood how much he disliked perpetually flicking the tangled hair out of his eyes."
ReplyDeleteAs the book continues into the 5th chapter we begin to see a change in Ralph. Instead of the confident boy we witnessed in chapter 1, we now see a deflated Ralph that can't seem to take control of anybody. He even mentions to Simon and Piggy that he was even thinking about resigning. Golding portrays this change by the difference in the boy's appearance. The beaten down "tangled hair" boy seems to have replaced the "fair haired" boy that the group picked to lead them on the island. The word tangle can connote conflict, or fighting, which is very true to what is happening on the island. The boys cannot not seem to agree on a single idea. Ralph believes that the other kids aren't pulling their weight, Jack conflict with Piggy is growing by the chapter etc. I can only wonder if these disputes will settle down, so they can work together and get off the island.
Very good points Isaiah. i agree with this and think that Ralph is certainly losing a following very quickly. I think the children either don't respect him as a leader, not following orders and find the leadership they think they want withen Jack. i also see Ralph deteriorating as he becomes more effected by the island with his growing, mess hair. i think his connections to his past and his role as a leader are falling appart as well.
DeleteI think I might be over analyzing this, but one thing I notice was when the conch was also changing the way it look,"Exposure to the air had bleached the yellow and pink to near white,and transparency."(78)Lately William Golding has been repeating often the changes the boys have been going through, and it reminded me what Jack said,"Like things trying to look like something else."(63)The boys don't even recognize themselves anymore,and are becoming their worst enemy. But also the transparency part of the first quote might mean that after being so long on the island another side of the boys are being seen, that one couldn't see back home like Jack and his obsession of wanting to kill a pig. But almost everything on this island is changing.
ReplyDeleteI don't think you are over analyzing it. I think that that is a great observation that I hadn't noticed util you pointed it out. Everything seems to be changing. In the beginning, the colors were beautiful and vibrant and now they are dull and pasty. I think that this could be a resemblance of what the boys are going through. They are being corrupted and things are no longer as great as they seemed. Their thoughts of being rescued are decreasing and their ideals are changing. The boys are not only changing in physical appearance, like the shell, but they are changing mentally and emotionally. There is more to what it seems.
DeleteAs the digression of civilization seems to continue on the island so does the respect for leaders ship and order. Although the children still maintain some form of morality they also begin to not see the importance of the conch or a leader.As jack speaks during Ralph's meeting he "Was the first to make himself heard. He had not got the conch and thus spoke against the rules; but nobody minded." (109) These once hopeful symbol in the novel was just disregarded by another leader displaying to the younger kids how little authority on the island really means. Although it is so extremely important they only see Ralph as a reprimander rather then someone who does anything for the group like jack. If Ralph's authority becomes any less respected while the island become complete chaos or ruled by a new leader.
ReplyDeleteI think that Ralph represents a figure similar to all the boys' parents and as they have all strayed from their societal norms, they want to distance themselves further and further away from parental control, and therefore further and further away from Ralph and his authority. Jack is wild and crazy and attracts the rest of the boys on the island; he resembles the exact opposite of a parental figure. As most children would hate to admit, Ralph, or a parental role, is often correct and has the best intention with the best outcome. But as Ralph continues to become more and more disregarded and Jack's power and authority on the island grows, any chance of focused order with good intentions will become lost.
DeleteI agree and also believe that it is not solely Ralph who represents parental control on the island. When roger was throwing the stones on the sand and yet could not bring himself to hit the space occupied by the little boy he displayed how strong his connection with society still is. Its not only that Ralph represents there lives back home but also parts of their daily actions on the island.
DeleteIn chapter 5 they mostly talk about the beast, yet we still don’t know if it’s real or not. I think that the beast is not real, that instead it is a symbol Golding is using to represent evil and danger, and with that fear. I don’t think it’s a mistake that in chapter 4 the littluns are represented to us as a blank slate and that is chapter 5 they are the only ones scared of the beast. In society kids are introduced to fear at a slow pace, for example you parents know not to show you something as scary as a horror movie when your five. Instead they read you a mystery novel, this introduces the idea of evil to you in small portions. On the island the littleluns are thrown into danger, and aren’t able to grasp the idea of it. They are overwhelmed with all these new emotions. I also noticed how when jack was talking about this fear, his hair kept falling in front of his eyes. “It’s kind of deciding on the fear.’ The hair was creeping into his eyes again. ‘We’ve got to talk about this fear and decide there’s nothing in it.” I think that his hair is a symbol of his biggest fear, never getting off the island and what he will become if he stays on the island.
ReplyDeleteElla, I agree with you strongly about the snake and how it isn't a real thing, but instead represents a fear the boys share, especially the littluns. It is interesting throughout the book to see how the littluns react to certain things compared to the older boys because they have spent less time alive in society, and are therefore influenced less and have less pre-existing morals to be erased by life on the island than the older boys. I think you can be more specific about the fear that the beast represents though, because I think Golding means for the beast to symbolize a certain kind of fear. In my opinion, the beast represents the boys' fear of being trapped on the island forever, and eventually dieing there. I disagree, however, about Jack's hair. I don't think Jack is afraid of what he will become if he stays on the island because the person he is transforming into on the island is his true self, as opposed to the one who came over on the plane.
DeleteThis chapter has many different, developing ideas in it. "someone had leaned too far back and the log whipped and thrown half a dozen boys backwards ... yet now, he was, no one had had the wit-- not himself nor Jack, nor Piggy-- to bring a stone and wedge the thing..."(77). I thought that this line really underlined the idea of the boys leaving civilization and entering into a new state of living. I am sure that if the boys were at home, some one would have done this already and the problem would be fixed. But the idea that Ralph has not done it, nor has anyone else, makes me think that they are entering a place where they only look out for themselves and don't help the community. Later in the quote Ralph ponders why he has not fixed this and I think it is because he slowly entering a savage stage or just a stage of forgetting what was done in England.
ReplyDeleteGood response Lila. I agree with your evidence in the context of your quote but I think that society is mush more engrained in their minds then you think. I also think that there is a difference between their previous roles in society and the roles they now form (which is still based on society).
DeleteI chose this line too. I think all the boys are blinded by a need for power on this island and don't see what needs to be done right in front of them. This is also what led to the fire burning out and two leaders opposing each other. I don't believe that Ralph is in the savage state but that he just became blinded by what was all around him in this new state of power. Instead of becoming a true leader he forgot about basics needed for a stable life.
Delete"''Course there isn't a beast in the forest. How could there be? What would a beast eat?' 'Pig.' 'We eat pig'" (83). In these lines, it became obvious to me that the children themselves are the beast and what they fear is simply themselves. They do not necessarily fear each other, but rather each individual fears their own self and what savage cruelty that self might be capable of. Maybe the fear of this "beast" is what is keeping any sort of order from completely falling apart. As soon as they discover there is no beast, and it is they who are the beast, they will have absolutely nothing to fear. Chaos can be prevented and havoc will not be reeked just as long as they keep this fictitious fear alive in their heads and know that there is something holding them back, something more powerful. But when that barrier is broken, all hell will break loose on the island.
ReplyDeleteThis chapter has definitely been the most interesting for me so far. I spent a lot of time thinking about consequence, and how they go hand in hand with having rules. I think that one of the biggest flaws that this society has so far is that there are no consequences or punishments for when someone breaks a law. In response to a rule that Simon broke, Ralph says sternly, "Well, don't do it again. Understand?" (92) Regardless of the tone of voice, it seems to me that at this stage in their society's development, the only consequence someone has to face when doing something wrong is a harsh scolding. I've always believed that the only way to learn a lesson is by making a mistake and learning from it through punishment and doing something you don't want to do. While anyone can sit through a scolding from someone after doing something incorrect, it can be easily disregarded. I think that besides these rules, the last piece this "government" needs to succeed and function properly is another set of rules, that can be applied when someone does something wrong. Otherwise, how can the citizens be taught not to make that mistake again?
ReplyDeleteIn chapter five, I began to see slight connections to the boys' past lives. "For now the littleuns were no longer silent. They were reminded of their personal sorrows; and perhaps felt themselves to share in a sorrow that was universal." (87)This shows that the littleuns were reminded of their life before the island and how it has changed during the island. The fact that they are always so happy yet they broke out in a harmonious cry reminds me that they are still young. The boys cannot be asked to do things they arent used to. They are almost useless. I think that they just feel the need to be loved like they were at home. I think that that is their universal sorrow. They are all crying about the same thing.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading chapter 5 of "Lord of the Flies", one main thing stood out to me: the growing restlessness of the boys on the island. The group of boys as a whole, especially Ralph and Jack, their leaders, are becoming tired of island life and are getting more and more impatient as the chapter progresses. This can be seen when Ralph is examining the conch: "Exposure to the air had bleached the yellow and pink to near-white, and transparency" (78). This quote is significant because the color of the conch, especially the pink which Golding repeats many times throughout the book, is fading, and if the pink color represents hope, then it signifies a loss of hope among the boys. Also, the conch is the main symbol of power in the book, and it becoming transparent is Golding's way of showing how power as well is falling apart amongst the boys, and now the boys can "look" right through the power figures. Another quote that shows this lack of hope and growing despair is when Golding writes: "The world, that understandable and lawful world, was now slipping away. Once there was this and that; and now- and the ship was gone" (91). I think the ship appearing and leaving in chapter 4 was a metaphor for the boys' hope, sanity, and last chances at a peaceful society. When the ship disappeared again over the horizon, it took with it the peace that had existed on the island before, and left the boys and their society on the brink of collapse
ReplyDeleteDuring the assembly in the beginning of the chapter, Ralph proclaims, "Now I say this and make it a rule, because I'm chief: We won't have a fire anywhere but on the mountain. Ever" (81). He knows that this will not be a popular decision, and there may even be some disadvantages of it, but it also serves to demonstrate his power as chief. There has been a lot of struggle over who really is in charge of the group, and this is one of the first times where Ralph really takes charge. If he is able to keep this up and control the group so they at least listen to him a little, he will have a much better chance of coming out on top in this ongoing power struggle between him and Jack.
ReplyDeleteRalph took me by surprise in this section. Since the beginning of the book, I assumed he was just an arrogant and spoiled child who wanted to control others. However, I now see that he is a very capable leader. Unlike Jack, he attempts to maintain a civil society, and truly feels concern for the other boys. I think this will help him later on in the story to maintain his status as cheif.
DeleteRight at the beginning of chapter 5, Ralph hits a turning point in the book. He comes to the realization that Piggy has the brains and he doesnt. Although, Ralph knows his likability will keep in on top as a leader, he still has to step up to make sure tasks get completed around the island. Ralph preaches to the group, "We need an assembly. Not for fun. Not for laughing and falling off the log...But to put things straight." (79). This quote really shows how Ralph's mindset has changed while living on the island, he is stepping up to the plate and becoming the adult the kids need to control them. Ralph made sure to address every issue on the island, from the importance of the fire to retrieving water in the coconuts. And by stepping into the triangle, even Piggy wanted to be a part of this assembly, proving Ralph is losing his biased edge. On the other hand, Jack resorts to childs play by blaming everyone's fears on the innocent littleuns, accusing them of being the problem. I think this is ridiculous because he is older than them yet yells at them terribly, leaving the littleuns to be scared of Jack himself.
DeleteAt the very beginning of this chapter Ralph thinks within himself about the state of the boys as a group or society. He views a faulty seat and speaks against it, " he now saw, no one had the wit... to bring a stone and wedge the thing. So they would continue enduring the ill-balanced twister, because, because..." (77). As Ralph reflects on the society he sees all the silly mistakes not only the boys, but he also have made. He uses this rocky seat as a metaphor for life describing it as an "ill-balanced twister" which people endure because of the lack of wit they have. Golding uses this line to express how the boys, clouded by their own selfishness and ideas had not seen the hold picture and the little things that could help over time. They endure this twister because they don't know how to control and create a group that is productive and helpful. The men, especially the leaders, in this story have tried to inflict control as their idea at a society, instead counter acting each other and missing oppurtunities. Golding is also questioning why we do it all, why do we try to have leadership and endure pain in life? This question is essential when you think about all the characters and their motives.
ReplyDeleteI kept in mind the colors that Golding mentions from class discussions and kept looking out for the mention of the color pink and noticed an interesting pattern. When Ralph was pacing around the shore his shorts were tightly folded on his thighs which were "making an uncomfortable, pink area on the front of his thighs"(76). As we spoke in class, this could be a sign of living, flesh, and maybe even innocence. However, later on in the chapter, while the trending topics(the beats, being organized and not fooling around) were being discussed the conch was no longer referred as pink but as the "white conch"(85). I thought this was significant because after Ralph stated what he had to say, people were shouting back at him, and no longer listening and obeying him. In my eyes, this meant that just as Ralph was no longer in control, the conch also had no meaning or usefulness to it.
ReplyDeleteGood Job Rosana I agree with you I also get from that that the conch isn't a sign of innocence or respect anymore its just there. Before it was respect and values but now the meaning and use of the conch has gone away because of the kids adaptability to the island and their behavior.
DeleteI agree Rosana this shift in color was surprising especially of the conch. The pink conch symbolized the authority Ralph had over everyone and Golding made it seem because Ralph had blew into it so many times that it faded white, and this reflects the importance. I also feel that the white conch can represent his innocence because he is so young that boys are not going to follow his rules because they are used to adult authority and unsure if he is able to "govern" them.
DeleteThe Quote that most stood out to me from the reading was when Simon in chapter five says, "What I mean is . . . maybe it’s only us”. He says this during the meeting where the boys consider the question of the beast. One littlun proposed the horrifying idea that the beast may be hiding in the ocean during the day and come out only at night, the boys now start arguing if the beast might actually exist. Simon, also proposes that the beast is only the boys themselves. The other boys laugh off Simon’s suggestion, but I believe that Simon’s words are essential to Golding’s point that innate human evil exists. Simon is the first character in the novel to see the beast not as an external force but as a figment of human nature. Simon doesnt fully understand his own idea, but he is right because the monster is eventually the kids which is what they are becoming by being uncivilized and without order.
ReplyDeleteAn interesting line in this chapter was when Jack held the conch and said, "Am I a hunter or am I not?"" they nodded, simply. He was a hunter all right. No one doubted that" I saw this as Golding's way of showing Jacks power and in this case seemingly superior power over Ralph. I saw that though Ralph is considered leader among the many children on this island his power is not matching to the power of Jack. The interesting thing is that Jack is being backed by the other majority of the hunters. To me this shows that people want him more than Ralph and that is really what Golding is trying to get across. This seems like an point that Golding is trying to make. He is saying that the people of societies are putting their leaders into power. In this case, it doesn't matter if the power elected is good or not, it is just wanted by the people.
ReplyDeleteYes totally, Ralph is considered the leader but Jack has this power to control people. It is because he has the hunters on his side but also I think it is because he is pushy, and most times when a person is pushy they will get attention and recognition even if they have a lousy point or are not correct.
Delete-Marcello Brattesani
In this chapter Ralph finally realizes that there is no order on this island, but chaos no one is trying to help the group, but worried of only themselves. When Ralph walks on the beach he realizes that he needs to become an actual leader and show some dominance, he states: "I've been alone. By myself I went, thinking what's what. I know what we need. An assembly to put things straight. And first of all I'm speaking." (79). At the end of the quote he says "I'm speaking" it gave the reader the compassion to empathize for Ralph in which he was trying to do his best to restore order, but no one would help with the necessities to survive. But, instead of continuing this leadership qualities he decides to almost give up his authority. Why does he doubt himself as a leader, although his followers are unable to comply with his demands? It is not his fault that they don't see the importance of survival especially through making fires and building shelter.
ReplyDeleteIn this chapter, my view of the boys shifted. Previously while reading, I had detested Jack and Ralph for constantly mocking Piggy. They seemed to me to be arrogant dictators whose minds were consumed with greed for power. However, chapter 5 made me realize that the boys are far more complicated then that. Ralph begins to let down his persona of being all knowing, stating to Piggy "We're all drifting and things are going rotten. At home there was always a grownup... How I wish" (94). This quote showed a different side of Ralph. He truly doesn't only care for himself, and he showed this by expressing his distress over how badly things had become. While reading, I forgot how very young these boys really are. To be on an island with no grown ups and no idea whether or not they will be rescued is terrifying. I now understand that Ralph and Jack are not only consumed by the need for power, they also have other parts of them that care for the group.
ReplyDeleteI think this change in character is a very interesting point to bring up. At the same time I think that Ralph's new softer side could be a bad thing as it shows he has less confidence in the hopes of survival for the boys. To be on an island this young is very sad but I still think Ralph should still remain confident in their chances because if he resigns as leader, it could just lead to more anxiety and commotion for the littluns. Ralph's new change in character can also be viewed as a bad thing for the future of the boys.
DeleteA line that stood out to me as I read this chapter was "The world, that understandable and lawful world, was now slipping away. Once there was this and that; and now- and the ship was gone" (91. This quote shows how once again the boys are faced with the idea that they may never be saved. The lawful world and the ship both represent parts of the civilized world which the boys hope to return to but this quote shows how this may indeed never happen. The boys are slowly but surely losing hope of getting rescued day by day.
ReplyDeleteAsrat, i agree with you in saying the boys are losing hope but i still think it is divided amongst the groups. Ralph will always believe there is a chance to be saved, however time does seem to be running out. Do you think it is still possible for the boys to be saved? Maybe if they all work together and create a well-functioning society, they might have a chance?
DeleteI agree that their losing hope that they're going to get recused. I think that this is the author's way of saying that they are moving towards Jack's side and drifting from Ralph's mentality and leadership. They all just want to survive now.
DeleteRight at the beginning of chapter 5, Ralph hits a turning point in the book. He comes to the realization that Piggy has the brains and he doesnt. Although, Ralph knows his likability will keep in on top as a leader, he still has to step up to make sure tasks get completed around the island. Ralph preaches to the group, "We need an assembly. Not for fun. Not for laughing and falling off the log...But to put things straight." (79). This quote really shows how Ralph's mindset has changed while living on the island, he is stepping up to the plate and becoming the adult the kids need to control them. Ralph made sure to address every issue on the island, from the importance of the fire to retrieving water in the coconuts. And by stepping into the triangle, even Piggy wanted to be a part of this assembly, proving Ralph is losing his biased edge. On the other hand, Jack resorts to childs play by blaming everyone's fears on the innocent littleuns, accusing them of being the problem. I think this is ridiculous because he is older than them yet yells at them terribly, leaving the littleuns to be scared of Jack himself.
ReplyDeleteWhat perked my interest was when Piggy said "We know what goes on and if there's something wrong, there's someone to put it right." I found this quote qiute reasurring expecially if I were a littlun because it lets you know that everything will be okay. This quote when I first read it also made me unsure that Piggy meant any of this and was just trying to reasure the littluns and himself. I think that he is scared and is trying to convince himself out of it. For example when the ghost is mentioned in this chapter Piggy is really quick to reflect and say that he doesn't believe in ghosts. I did not feel any confidence coming from him when he stated that. But I felt a bit more when he talks about someone to put it right.
ReplyDelete-Marcello Brattesani
The quote that stood out to me was, "Clamor rose at once. Everyone had built the shelters" (80). With the whole beast scare, the boys really pick up their act. And as the idea of the beast increasingly fills the boys with dread, Jack and the hunters manipulate the boys’ fear of the beast to their own advantage. Jack continues to hint that the beast exists when he knows that it probably does not—a manipulation that leaves the rest of the group fearful and more willing to cede power to Jack and his hunters, more willing to overlook barbarism on Jack’s part for the sake of maintaining the “safety” of the group. In this way, the beast indirectly becomes one of Jack’s primary sources of power. At the same time, Jack effectively enables the boys themselves to act as the beast—to express the instinct for savagery that civilization has previously held in check. Because that instinct is natural and present within each human being, Golding asserts that we are all capable of becoming the beast.
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