Post
your reader responses here: Choose a line or two from Chapter 1 and explain why
it stands out to you. Does this line shock you, confuse you, or seem
important in some way? Does it make you ask a question? Can
you make a
connection to your life or another text? Does the language stand out to
you for some reason? What is this line saying about the characters in
the novel and about people or the world, in
general?
Then, respond to a classmate's post. Agree or disagree, but make sure that you add something new-- a new idea, a reference to another part of the book. Include textual evidence as you push the conversation forward. Ask more questions to keep the dialogue going...and remember-- this assignment is all about thinking/analysis.
"'I'll come.'
ReplyDeleteRalph turned to him.
'You're no good on a job like this.'
'All the same-'
'We don't want you,' said Jack, flatly,'" (24).
Through this chapter what stood out to me the most was how Piggy was treated right from the start. He was easily picked on and I feel like he was isolated quickly from the rest of the boys. These lines stood out to me because Jack and Ralph are so straight forward and rude to Piggy saying he isn't needed. Even later on when Piggy tries to say he was with Ralph before anybody else the boys ignored him and to me that quickly shows who is going to have his voice go unheard. Ralph and Jack don't really care that they call him Piggy, about what Piggy says or about him in general from the start. Probably because he is chubby, wears glasses, and has asthma. Which also shows how image effects what people think of you and how people act with you.
Just like the old man in A Very Old Man With Enormous Wings, Piggy seems to be the "freak" that everybody attacks not physically like the villagers did with the old man but verbally which can cause just as much harm. Piggy also shows he doesn't have the full courage to stand up to Ralph and Jack.
I agree completely Michelle! Piggy does seem to be the freak in the group, just like in a Very Old Man with Enourmous Wings. Not only does Piggy not have the courage to stand up to Ralph, but why do you think Ralph is being so mean to Piggy in the first place? Do you think that Ralph is just a mean person, or do you think that since he is the leader now, he wants to make a good impression in front of the other boys. Since he sees Piggy is the weakest link, it makes him look and feel powerful to bash on him, especially since a lot of the other boys are doing it as well. Do you think Ralph will ever see the wrong in what he is doing or do you think he will continue to make fun of Piggy until he loses it?
DeleteI agree with you too. In my blog post I talked about how Piggy was going to be very self reliant on other people in there situation, and I think the fact that he is makes him stand out, along with his size and awkward qualities. And because he doesn't really have the qualities that most people would like (Ralph and Jack), they push him to the side. Piggy seems to be the type of person to just stay in the background, and follow the leaders; but in the example you chose about him trying to say how he met Ralph first sort of shows how he is potentially trying.
DeleteMost obscurely, yet most powerfully, there was the conch. The being that he blown that, nhad sat waiting for them on the platform with the delicate thing balanced on his knees, was set apart. (22).
ReplyDeleteThroughout chapter one, we really begin to see how easliy symbols of power begin to form, and for these boys, that symbol is the conch. Although Jack appeared to be the natural leader, the way he asserted himself and was backed up by a large group of boys in black cloaks, it was Ralph who was finally chosen as the group's chief. Since Ralph was the one that brought all of the boys together with the conch, they feel a natural inclination towards him. The conch also seems to represent order, as it was the thing that in a way, caused the boys to establish a democracy. The only thing Ralph does not realize is that with becoming leader, also comes great responsibility and doing what's best for others, not just for you. Jack already seems to have a thirst for power, and has been constantly challenging Ralph's authority. Ralph also has been very unkind to Piggy, even though he was the one he was with since the beginning and gave him the idea to blow the conch in the first place. I can already predict a rebellion taking place in the future.
I agree with you, I think the conch symbolized power and automatically left Ralph in charge. I can see what you're saying about Jack being more of a leader but Ralph finding the shell giving him an advantage, but do you think that they chose Ralph because of the shell? Also, do you think that the shell is a big enough symbol to appear more often in the book, will it be a re-occuring symbol? In my opinion the shell will reappear throughout the story often because I see a power struggle beginning already. I agree with you also about the rebellion, usually in society there is a power struggle leading to more of a dystopia. Between Jack and Ralph I feel like the conch will be something they fight over causing a disruption between the small group of people existing.
DeleteI also agree, the conch definitely symbolizes power within the group of boys. However, do you think Ralph will be able to keep this power since it takes a great responsibility? We see him quickly step up to the plate to sort out trouble in the group and take a search team to check out what they are dealing with. However, Ralph also isn't the only one with a tool that holds power. Jack owns a knife. The question is which tool holds more power, the conch or the knife. Although Ralph has shown himself as a good leader who can keep order and gather everyone, Jack has the ability to kill and get food. It will be interesting to see who each boy sides with.
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ReplyDelete"'Perhaps there aren't any grownups anywhere.'
ReplyDeleteThe fat boy looked startled"
It's a really short quote, but I think it has a big part in the characterization of "The fat boy", otherwise known as Piggy. Throughout the first chapter of the book we meet this fat, nervous reck. Although he seems to be confident in himself, the narrator can see otherwise. Something you catch on about Piggy is that he's very reliant on other people. First, in this quote when Ralph suggests that there are no grownups around, and Piggy looks scared. "There aren't any grownups at all he?" he asks, while on the other hand, Ralph seems very excited at the news. We also hear him talk about what his Auntie told him to do and not to do; like not to run a lot because he has asthma. Which is common sense, I think, but the fact that it was a rule that his Aunt provided says a lot about his character. When Ralph finds out that people at his school used to call him "Piggy", all he's worried about is that other kids don't find out. I think that through out the story it's going to be hard for Piggy to fend for himself because of his reliance on other people.
I get what you're trying to say, but overall I think you're being a little harsh on Piggy. Yes, he is somewhat reliant, but I feel this isn't necessarily the factor that will give him trouble later in the book. Piggy is smart. Piggy, falls dependent on order, and really who can blame him? Grownups are the people who run the world, and like you said he does need to follow his Auntie's rules about his asthma. As we see early in the book, the boys fall into some kind of order, a chief. I think in some cases people need to be reliant, unless you believe in anarchy (which I doubt you do). Piggy has several obvious characteristics that will make him inferior in the eyes of the other boys, and it's not his fault.
DeleteI agree with you that Piggy's characteristics will play a big role throughout the book. The way he is characterized shows that he is different from the rest which makes him an easy target. In terms of him relying on others, I see what you're trying to say but I don't think it's reliance it's more like following rules. He is use to having his aunt tell him what is wrong to do and what to do because she is his adult figure. When he asks if there are any adults around he is trying to look for someone to fill his aunt's spot in my opinion. Like Teddy said you can't blame him because he is use to following rules from adults and order and not following kids his own age.
DeleteIt is going to be difficult for Piggy to fend for himself. As you commented on my post he is trying to stand up for himself but will his effort to do so be enough to make him stand strong or fall and fade'?
One part that stuck with me was when Ralph was on the beach: "He was old enough, twelve years and a few months, to have lost the prominent tummy of childhood and not yet old enough for adolescence to have made him awkward" (10). He's at the edge of "coming of age" or losing innocence. I think it's interesting the author made him this way for this really is a critical time in a persons' life. There's a big difference between a 12 year old and a 13 year old and I wonder what the author is trying to bring out with this character being in the midst of that shift. Children's minds are somewhat simple, yet when you grow older into teens, one's mind can be overwhelmed by complicated thoughts and decisions. Ralph again, is in the middle of all this. This does not pertain to knowledge, but perhaps this stage is where he really develops his true morals and philosophic thoughts. I may be stretching too far, but the questions about human nature we were asked in class could (not always) be clouded by overcomplicated thoughts and prior knowledge. Ralph is pure, yet not completely innocent, leaving him in the perfect state of mind for these philosophical questions. This may be the stage where a person decides to go one way in life or the other. Will Ralph be a good leader and make good decisions? Or he will be how Jack turns out to be? I guess what I'm trying to get at is, since Ralph is at this turning point, at this age, at this state of mind, it all kind of ties together how he will define himself for the most part. This is just a thought, and I'm not sure how to explain it completely. I mean, there definitely are other factors that will affect the way people are, but I feel that is the stage where true life decisions and state of minds are determined.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you for the most part, I think that the author definitely chose for Ralph to be in that weird "tween" phase where you are just beginning to become overwhelmed by new thoughts and decisions. However, I think that William Golding made these kids to be this age to represent something bigger. I'm sure coming of age plays into it, but I feel that these kids are a metaphor for something in the bigger picture. This too, is just a thought but what if these kids are representing a civilization. They are, just as you said, "pure", and, it seems pretty obvious, that there is trouble coming up soon. (There is a section in the first chapter, I can't find it, where the boys find animal tracks and then see some sort of dark cave) The same way a civilization has its golden years, but then, as the mandate of heaven decrees, there must be a fall. That is probably quite off, but this story feels like it is set up to represent, or to symbolize a bigger issue.
DeleteI agree, Henry. Not only is it significant that they are coming of age, figuring out what kind of men they want to be, what kind of society they want to live in, etc. Also, if we're to think of this as an allegory, what do the boys represent as a whole?
Delete"'I was going to,' said Jack. 'I was choosing a place. Next Time-!'
ReplyDeleteHe snatched his knife out of the sheath and slammed it into a tree trunk. Next time there would be no mercy. He looked round fiercely, daring them to contradict."
This part in the end of the chapter stuck out to me because it showed me signs of a power struggle beginning. Jack had backed out of stabbing a piglet and Ralph had asked why, when he asked, Jack became angry and defensive. In the beginning of the chapter, we can already see a little tension between Ralph and Jack because Ralph won the leader of the group. Here, I don't think that Ralph really realizes that Jack wants his power. Although Ralph was chosen as the leader, I can see that Jack has already become irritated and next time will prove himself my slaughtering a pig. I think the pig symbolizes the beginning of a power struggle and a division in the tiny society that they have. I believe that later on in the book, it will come to a point where a war will break out in fight for power between Ralph and Jack. The choir boys will once again side with Jack and the others with Ralph. This will lead to a division in their tiny society and lead to more of a dystopia than they already have. I think the fact that Jack has a knife is trying to show his power in comparison to the rest of the boys having not much power, once again showing signs of a power struggle in this small dystopia.
Fiona, I totally agree with you! There is already ongoing tension between Jack and Ralph and I think further in the book the tension between both of them will become bigger and both of them will fight to gain power. In chapter one, I saw how mortified Jack was when he wasn't chosen to become the leader and I think this made Jack against Ralph. I feel like later on in the book, Jack will confront Ralph and ask for power and this will cause dispute, which will ultimately turn into a war in the island. However,Do you think Piggy will take sides with Jack since Ralph turned his back to him earlier? Will the war between Ralph and Piggy cause the island to be divided in half?
DeleteFiona, I couldn't agree more! The tension between Jack and Ralph has just started and will continue to grow as the book progresses. I like how you mentioned the knife and its symbolic reference to power. Since Jack is the sole owner of the knife, is he already more powerful than Ralph? He is the only one that can kill animals and bring food to the boys. As the book continues I wonder if the boys will see the meaning in the knife and realize that their current leader, Ralph, can't promise them survival as much as Jack can.
Delete"Now the shell was no longer a thing seen but not to be touched, Ralph became excited... (he) took the shell from Piggy... Ralph grasped the idea and hit the shell with air from his diaphragm... a deep, harsh note boomed from under the palms"
ReplyDeleteThis quote stuck with me because I feel it was the final point that secured Ralph as the leader of the community. I wondered why it was Ralph, and not Piggy, who had the idea of using the conch in the first place. I believe this is because of two things: the fact that Ralph is more physically fit than Piggy, which makes it seem like Piggy is relying on him. Also that Ralph feels entitled to the position as leader. For example, later in the chapter, when the children begin to assemble, he was the one standing on the platform. This symbolically stands out to me as William Golding making him seem better than the rest.
I completely agree with your view, Jack. The fact that Golding chose to have Ralph be the one standing on the platform when the others arrived stood out as a clear expression of power. It showed that Ralph believed in himself over the others even though he had not yet met any of them. It shows Ralph's wit in that he wants to begin their journey already in a position of power. Also, this part really made me wonder about Piggy. Why did he never stand up for himself? Why did he allow the others to mock him? I find Piggy to be one of the strongest characters because he has such a thick skin, but he also needs to learn to stand up for himself in order to reach his full potential!
Delete“’Better Piggy than Fatty,’ he said at last, with the directness of genuine leadership, ‘and anyway, I’m sorry if you feel like that. Now go back, Piggy, and take names. That’s your job. So long.’”(25)
ReplyDeleteThroughout this chapter, Piggy is mocked by everyone on the island. Ralph and Piggy were together from the beginning but once Ralph became the leader he turned his back to Piggy. I think that signifies that often times when power comes in hand we exploit it and become arrogant. Ralph says “sorry” just to say it and to get it over with; I highly doubt he meant it when he said it. Ralph is bossing Piggy around and I feel like, “Better Piggy than Fatty”, has a bitter tone to it, it seems like Ralph is kind of indicating that he’s the leader and that he is superior.
I wrote a similar idea to what you wrote, but I feel that Ralph always was sort of mocking Piggy. When Piggy tried to tell Ralph his name he completely ignored that "Piggy" is not what he wanted to be called. Ralph never let Piggy tell him his real name. Throughout the whole chapter Ralph and the others are making snide comments about Piggy. I think he was automatically singled out as the "different one" and there was nothing he could do to change that.
DeleteI agree Mahwish, because if Ralph didn't get voted chief I think that he would stick to Piggy's side, because he wouldn't have anyone else. Also I feel that Ralph told the boys that he was called Piggy just to be like by his peers which still wasn't right in its self.
DeleteI agree with what you said Mahwish, but i also feel that maybe Ralph does kind of feel bad- hes just unable to stop himself from acting that way towards Piggy, or maybe hes even too scared to- now that hes acquired all this power and recognition from the others, he doesn't want to seem like anything less of what got him where he is now.
DeleteOn page 21 there is a quote that reads "For the moment the boys were a closed circuit of sympathy with Piggy outside: he went very pink, bowed his head, and cleaned his glasses again". I think this quote is full of symbolism both for the sake of the story and also for the reader to relate to their own life. The fact that the boys separate themselves from Piggy in order to laugh at him shows just how immature they really are. Although they try to act responsible and in control, the reality of the situation is that they are all children who are going through a loss of innocence and are unsure of the correct way to deal with it. By harassing Piggy, they feel that they can somehow belong to a group, therefore being able to fit in. The use of the word "sympathy" shows the ways in which the boys try to force Piggy out by making him feel self conscious. Piggy deals with this alienation by continuously cleaning his glasses. Throughout the chapter, anytime Piggy becomes stressed out he takes off his glasses in an attempt to clean them. I think thats this is not just meant to be a mindless action, but that it represents the society he left behind. It shows the materialistic aspect of their world, how they idealize certain things in the hopes of distracting themselves from the reality of their situation. Piggy cleans his glasses in order to try and remember the past, a time when he felt comfortable and had options, even if they were slightly limited by society.
ReplyDeleteNice attention to the glasses! When does Golding bring them up? How are they described? When does Piggy clean them? These are all really good questions. Keep noticing their presence in the novel!
Delete“This toy of voting was almost as pleasing as the conch.” (22) All the boys get excited at the idea of voting for a chief. Voting represents civilization and order, like what they had in their society. Maybe voting is pleasing to the boys because they are simply more familiar with it. Similar to the conch, voting is the civilized way of having an authority take control. This quote reminds me of the question on whether or not human beings naturally prefer order over chaos. Or does society shape our preferences by having us become accustomed to these conventional ways? I believe it is the other way around: we are the ones who shape order in society because we are born with a tendency to follow rules. Although we have a desire for freedom, we would rather not have chaos breaking out.
ReplyDeleteWell, maybe society does shape us in the case of our need to be ruled over. For example, we were all born into a society with a certain set of rules and structure that we now live by. But we didn't have to make these rules, since we live by these rules they've molded us. What I'm trying to say here is that although we created laws, they're because of our society. If their wasn't a threat of population over flow and less jobs for Americans, illegal immigrants would be less challenged in the States, but since their are so many people here we have to act against this. The boys are truly lost because they're unfamiliar with this situation and I think the fact that you've revealed this is great, but is finding familiarities a way to cope with their situations?
DeleteXingduo-- I also think it's significant that Golding uses the word "toy" to describe their voting/the democratic process. Why is this word significant?
DeleteImmediately after all the boys were brought together, the first topic that they all discussed is the fact that there isn't any adults on the island with them. This came as a big shock to each of them, since they haven't ever had as much power as they were granted on the island. Soon they start to discuss who would be elected to hold the position as the leader of the group. This was one of the first discussions because each boy hasn't ever really made his own decision by himself, they have always had some direction from an older being. Before the election we see Ralph quickly act as an adult figure and restore order between Jack and Piggy, "Shut up fatty," Laughter arose. "He's not Fatty," cried Ralph, "his real name's Piggy!" "Piggy!" "Piggy!"(21). Before the election Ralph shows that he can take care of trouble makers and restore order among the boys. However, he doesn't choose sides like many adults that solve problems between kids. Yes, he did defend Piggy, but he still called him Piggy, which Piggy told him not to. Although he defended him, he also mocked him. Because Ralph was able to act as an adult in the situation, he was elected because each boy felt comfortable as him as a leader, since he acted most like an adult.
ReplyDeleteA young boy, about six years old, after hearing the conch blown, wanders out of the woods to find Ralph and Piggy trying to collect all the boys on the island and have a meeting. Seeing this and feeling the "reassurance of something purposeful being done he began to look satisfied, and his only clean digit, a pink thumb, slid into his mouth" (18). This line stood out to me as the essence of the idea that familiarity and authority often have the same affect. They both cause the boy, Johnny, to feel a sense of comfort even though he is on an island with no one he knows, and no adults. Johnny sees the meeting as "something purposeful", and therefore is comfortable with his surroundings so long as he knows that there is a person in charge and he will not be left to his own devices. Although no one there is familiar to him, Johnny recognizes this authority as something he often saw at home and school, presumably with a schedule, and parents and teachers telling him what to do. What I thought was even more remarkable about this quote was the fact that after Johnny is reassured he begins to suck his thumb. The mature way he deals with his new unfamiliar situation directly juxtaposes his youthful habit of sucking his thumb. Johnny's comfortablility in the face of authority, a familiar phenomenon, parallels that of most people in the world today. Familiar situations especially with rules telling us how to act and what to do, often make us feel more comfortable in situations which would otherwise be hard to adapt to. Although in this book the example is shown of a young boy gravitating towards authority, I think it is also true that adults have the same gravitation towards authority and rules, although they claim to be more independent.
ReplyDeleteI can truly see the deeply rooted parallels between Johnny and the adults in our society. his obedience and gravitation towards authority is natural and seems to be something that will stay with him for the rest of his life. Why is it that the people in our society are content with this idea and do not decide to fight back? Is it because we think it is best for us? However the way he deals with this in my mind is not as mature. He has obeyed his parents and schedules for his entire life and by sitting down and sucking his thumb, he is continuing to do so. He did the thing that was most comfortable to him which is not very unusual but in my mind shows more fearfulness than true maturity.
DeleteI can definitely agree that people want to feel this comfort, and I also agree that people subconsciously enjoy authority. If you notice, every kid wonders where the adults have gone, and if there are adults to rule over them. They aren't happy that these annoying adults aren't there to control them, but are more at a loss and a great deal of confusion over what to do now that they have this sort of freedom. Although they take the initiative to go find civilization or to scout out the land, they still are looking for a similar reassurance .
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ReplyDelete"The circle of boys broke into applause. Even the choir applauded; and the freckles on Jack's face disappeared under a blush of mortification...'The choir belongs to you, of course.'" (23)
ReplyDeleteThis passage stuck out to me because it addresses two very important aspects of the group as a whole during their initial meeting. The groups reliance on Ralph physically and mentally and the fearful actions of the choir. The children, without knowing more than Ralph's name elected him to be their leader and essentially allowed him the ability to control their actions and choices. He was smart enough to blow the conch and contact the others and truthfully without this vital decision he and the rest of the group may not have found each other but even without saying anything this action showed the children who their true leader was. He has only known these children for a few minutes yet he has already garnered enough trust to last a very long time. This quote surprised me because even though children are still very young and naive I also imagine them to be fearful and hesitant and the vote to decide a leader so early in the meeting made them seem very confident and content with their situation. They have placed a lot of responsibility on Ralph because they do not want hold the burden of their fear on their own, so by electing a leader they might find someone to share the weight of this fear with and their anxiety may have led them to make this quick decision. The other thing this quote symbolized to me was the fear of the choir. Golding uses the words "disappeared under a blush of mortification" when describing the freckles on his face. I found this interesting because of the way Jack has treated the choir. In many ways the choir is very lucky because in this time of fear and need they can belong to something where the others might not but this quote shows how unfortunate they might actually be. The choir clapped when Ralph was elected either out of respect or because they were truly happy to have someone else be their leader. The choir and their unity have the opportunity to shift the actions of the group but their past reliance on Jack may continue to haunt them.
"They knew very well why he hadn't: because of the enormity of the knife descending and cutting into living flesh; because of the unbearable blood"(31).
ReplyDeleteThis quote takes place as a wild pig passes and Jack is presented with an oppurtunity to show his dominance by killing this pig, as he whips out his knife, he pauses and cannot kill the pig. I think this was not just a small anecdote meant to be thrown in the story. I believe this will foreshadow a specific event later on in the book. I believe that sometime when the boys are in dire trouble, and need Jack or another one who posses a knife to kill an animal they will not be able to, or problems will arise. This is similar to how early on in the story, the author references Piggy's glasses, as well as his asthma. I believe this will be a problem in the future. He can either be held back if he looses his glasses, or has an asthma attack. On the contrary, his spectacles may come in handy, due to the fact that it is insanely hot, his spectacles my create a flame when angled correctly with the sunlight. This connects to the survey we filled out in class the other day, one of the questions were, if one is weak and holds the group back, should they be left behind? I believe this is something significant to consider.
I like how you arrived at the conclusion that what holds Piggy back will eventually aid him, and something positive like the knife, will actually hold Jack back. I chose a similar quote, regarding the same situation. I chose to pinpoint how the author contrasts the knife and Jack's bony arm to remind the reader of their youth and innocence.
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ReplyDeleteThe quote, “there came a pause, a hiatus, the pig continued to scream and the creepers to jerk, and the blade continued to flash at the end of a bony arm… then the piglet tore loose from the creepers and scurried into the undergrowth… Jack’s face was white under the freckles.” (31) spoke to me because it is a bit of a reality check. These kids are itching for responsibility, and independence, but they are still very young and do not completely understand the severity of their situation. You sort of forget that they are kids because they accept the responsibility so willingly, but when it comes time to step up to the plate their true colors surface. I specifically noticed how the author contrasted the flash of the blade to the end of Jack’s bony arm. I think Golding did this intentionally to juxtapose the sense of responsibility that is contrasted next to innocence and youth. How will these kids grow and adapt to their situation? How long will they be on the island for? How will this affect their coming of age?
ReplyDeleteWhen Golding shows Jack failing to kill the pig, I thought it served to show that the boys really have no idea what they were getting themselves into. The fact that they handly the whole thing so casually shows to me that they have no idea what they are in for, and I suspect that the group's coherence will deteriorate rapidly in the coming days and weeks on the island. To answer some of your questions, I think they will adapt to the island by becoming independent yet reckless and self-serving beings, which will raelly affect their coming of age and who they become. The way the boys repeat throughout the chapter that the island is "all ours" seems to be foreshadowing that the island is not really theirs at all, and soon enough, the island will be the one owning them--turning them into frenzied and savage kids.
Delete"'We got to find the others. We got to do something.' Ralph said nothing. Here was a coral island. Protected from the sun, ignoring Piggy's ill-omened talk, he dreamed pleasantly."-Page 15
ReplyDeleteThis passage seemed very similar to the many passages in "Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?" which depict Connie relaxing and laying about while something sinister begins to develop. It shows that there are people in the world who refuse to be realistic, and would rather live in the comfort of a nice imaginary land, like Ralph does, than confront their issues and deal with them. Piggy is the most down-to-earth of all the boys--despite not being the oldest, something about him makes him seem more mature than any of the others. Since this book seems to have a good amount to do already with the coming of age and loss of innocence in young boys, it appears that Golding may be illustrating that those who lay about and ignore the impending problems which confront them--adulthood, or staying alive on an uninhabited island, slightly analagous--are simply wasting their own time and will be faced with challenges at some point as everyone will, but they will simply be unprepared. This passage also made me wonder, will Ralph be able to step up to the plate and be a real, mature, worthy leader, or will he continue to act as if nothing is happening, and everything is fine? What could possibly spur such a change in Ralph? What about in the other boys?
I agree with you about Ralph refusing to be realistic about the situation of them being stranded on this island. But i also seem to recognize Ralph as a unsupportive friend. Throughout the whole chapter, Ralph percieves Piggy of having bad fortune(ill-omened) while he talks of important questions or ideas. To me, this shows that Ralph seeks no type of help and relies on his own plans of "dreaming pleasantly" for some type of miracle to happen. It stands out to me how odd and how dead to the world Ralph is in that quote. It makes me question: Will he open his eyes and realize that his death might be near? Or just like you mentioned If he will be able to step up on a higher platform and mature?
DeleteBefore this new civilization can begin to take root among the inhabitants of the island, these boys must begin to accept the reality they are stuck in and as a result they will end up maturing. However, Ralph has a lot more on his plate than the other boys, simply because they have decided for the most part to accept him as their leader. Ergo Ralph is someone who holds a lot of power; the other boys look up to him and he will have to mature more than them as a result, and quicker.
DeleteRalph is going to have to start appreciating everyone else's opinion to become a good leader. Oftimes children (and adolescents) will accept only the reality they believe in as the truth, but Ralph will have to move beyond that, something he clearly has not begun to try. If and when he does will be when he starts to mature. Hopefully by then the other boys will be able to mature as well.
Nice connection to "Where are you going...?" I never made that connection before-- and I've read this story many, many times!!
Delete"Ralph, faced by the task of translating all this into an explanation, stoof on his head and fell over. When they had done laughing, Simon stroked Ralph's arm shyly; and they had to laugh again."
ReplyDeleteThis passage stands out to me for a couple reasons, primarily because it shows even though these boys are presented with complete freedom they still look for a leader. This idea connects to the philosophers of the Enlightenment theories that man is truly enlightened when he is presented freedom within a set of laws that he must obey. Why do humans almost always look for an idea or a person to follow? Are humans naturally inclined to do what every one else does? I know that I, personally, am inclined to follow the current trends, to laugh at what everyone else finds funny, to watch all the shows that my friends watch, and even, believe the things that everyone around me believes. This quote also reminds the reader how young these kids are, the stroking of the arm represents the young boy looking for a parental figure, or someone that he can look to. Golding reminds us that even though these boys are in a very mature situation, they are still just boys.
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ReplyDelete"A child had appeared among the palms about a hundred yards along the beach. He was a boy of perhaps six years, sturdy and fair, his clothes torn, his face covered with sticky mess of fruit. His trousers had been lowered for an obvious purpose and had only been pulled back half-way."(14)
ReplyDeleteThis passage stood out to me because it reveals first hints of a civilization of children losing their innocence. In addition, "children's minds are somewhat simple, yet when you grow older into teens, one's mind can be overwhelmed by complicated thoughts and decisions"(Teddy) and it causes these children to become independent. The quote describes this six year old kid, Johnny, having traces of food smeared on his face, showing the savage like traits that these boys have inhabited. Having peace in a community where everyone is starving isn't realistic, and you can already see hints of that through this quote. For example, minorities are usually associated with prison and drugs because they're either trying to support themselves by committing a crime or leave the criminal state they just came from by doing a drug. So far, you can see hints of both. These kids are put under an order from oldest to youngest, showing power and dominance. Then by electing someone to lead it also shows a need for guidance and guaranteed support. On the other hand, the leader is no more than 12 and put in to a situation where he has to feed, lead and provide for a group of kids. Although these kids "are still very young and do not completely understand the severity of their situation"(Jake) they still need to live and this makes it such a complicated situation. So, how do these kids move on?
I agree with you on a higher level due to the relations in our thoughts. I also feel that this quote is showing how their society is going to be a dystopia rather than a flourishing utopia. I feel this can take place because they do not have a backbone to their society. In our society young adults and children have parents to shape their lifestyle. I feel that everything in this book will have a deeper meaning and I feel you really comprehended this quote to its true meaning, well done.
DeleteTyrone-- I love that you're citing your classmates! Teddy and Jake, you should be flattered!
DeleteThere was a piece of what I read that was sickeningly familiar to me. When Jack Merridew tells Piggy to shut up, and Ralph responds "'He's not Fatty...his real name's Piggy' 'Piggy!' Piggy!' Oh, Piggy!'" It was so crazy to hear this because this is what people jump to in a social setting in today's times. Everyone is so quick to jump in with laughter and criticism, and everyone's eager to follow some sort of movement, that no one really stops to think about what the other person or party is feeling. This is also true on a larger scale, because people don't want to not be "in" on everything, and the popular opinion is always appreciated by others, isn't it? What I really want to know is why people feel the need to fit in like this. I, for one, hate when people pick on me like this, but that isn't about the bigger picture. What makes people want to be part of the mass? Is it a fear of being the victim of similar jeers and criticism?
ReplyDelete*****There was a piece of what I read that was sickeningly familiar to me. When Jack Merridew tells Piggy to shut up, and Ralph responds "'He's not Fatty...his real name's Piggy' 'Piggy!' Piggy!' Oh, Piggy!'"(21) It was so crazy to hear this because this is what people jump to in a social setting in today's times. Everyone is so quick to jump in with laughter and criticism, and everyone's eager to follow some sort of movement, that no one really stops to think about what the other person or party is feeling. This is also true on a larger scale, because people don't want to not be "in" on everything, and the popular opinion is always appreciated by others, isn't it? What I really want to know is why people feel the need to fit in like this. I, for one, hate when people pick on me like this, but that isn't about the bigger picture. What makes people want to be part of the mass? Is it a fear of being the victim of similar jeers and criticism?
DeleteI think what you pointed out is a really important part of this book and today's society. I think the main reason that people are afraid to go against the trends, is because we are dependent on each other. Especially at our age, and the age of the boys in the story, we need support from others, and clinging to a group's opinions, and criticisms provides this support, while also keeping us safe from those same criticisms. In this case Ralph reveals that Piggy is called Piggy to everyone even though Piggy specifically asks that he calls him anything but that. Later, Ralph even apologizes, but it is obvious that he no longer cares for Piggy, because he has found comfort in his new friends, who approved of his making fun of Piggy. Just having read a few people's posts so far it seems like we all wish we could separate ourselves from these judgmental crowds, and yet we don't, maybe for fear of being ridiculed for it, or maybe for fear that we will be alone in our opinion, without the support of our peers. Just like Ralph, we are searching for approval and support from those around us, who can protect us with their crowd mentality.
DeleteI totally agree with you that in today's society, individuals feel the need to quickly criticize and jump to conclusions or laugh along, following the group. Like we discussed in class the other day, whether it is easier to follow than to lead, i believe that it's a lot easier to follow because of the difficult responses that the crowd may give you. This makes me think that the reason why these boys laugh along and follow the rest of the group is because it's either to laugh or get laughed at. They wouldn't want themselves in the same situation so they avoid it by following along. I would have predicted that if Ralph or anyone else tried to stand up to Jack for Piggy and say "that was mean", "stop being mean to him", or "stop laughing", Jack and the rest of the group would have turned on Ralph ad make a smart comment at him and start laughing at him as well. There is definitely fear of similar jeers and criticism, but there aren't many leaders to set themselves apart from the rest of the group.
Delete"This toy of voting was almost as pleasing as the conch.. But there was a stillness about Ralph as he sat that marked him out: there was his size, and attractive appearance; and most obscurely, yet most powerfully, there was the conch"(20).
ReplyDeleteThis quote takes place when Ralph and Jack are competing for the throne of chief. More importantly this voting shows that the voters themselves believe that Jack and Ralph are the two that stand out for this role. From the past lessons in class, I remember the quote where we were discussing how it is easier to follow than lead and that's why many people are followers. The voters saw Ralph as the "oldest and wisest" and he was the one to blow into this powerful conch. Golding uses the symbolism of the conch to compare the power of the object to Ralph. Just from the description Golding constructs makes me really think that Ralph corresponds to the conch. This conch that was on his lap, made it obvious that he was the one with the way out of this island. This also brings a thought into my head if Ralph can handle all this pressure of these kids looking up to him as the path to their survival. He still is coming of age and doesn't have all of the experience that might be needed. How will this affect their outcome?
I agree with you that the conch is a symbol of power for Ralph. Like you, I also wonder if Ralph is truly fit for this position. Maybe Jack is the better leader, but we do not know yet. This situation reminds me of our world today, or back then. People who were born into a royal family were believed to be the true leaders. On the other hand, people who had good but abstract ideas were looked upon as outcasts. Just because Ralph has the conch does not necessarily mean he is right for the job. For example, Hitler did not have the right ideas and people did not agree with him, but he promised the Germans welfare and hopes of high social classes. The Germans knew it was not right to follow Hitler, but they did nevertheless because of what he had in possession: wealth (more specifically, the promise of wealth). Relating to your quote, Ralph’s possession of the conch may represent a promise of order for the boys. I do not completely think Ralph will be a bad leader; it is just a new idea I am putting out there.
Delete" 'Aren't there any grownups at all?' 'I don't think so.' The fair boy said this solemnly; but then the delight of a realized ambition came upon him. In the middle of the scar he stood up on his head and grinned at the reversed fat boy. 'No grownups!' "
ReplyDeleteThis quote, quite at the beginning of the chapter, shows the current innocence and immaturity of the boys, in particular of Ralph. He and Piggy have just discovered each other, not actually knowing if anyone else has survived the plane crash they just endured, and Ralph's main priority quickly becomes exerting his free will absent of an adult figure. He even stands on his head when repeating this to Piggy, grinning childishly; those actions show how immature he is at the beginning of this story. "No grownups," in this situation is sort of a euphemism for "no rules, a fresh start," and it appears to be a dangerous endeavor if the leader starts out like Ralph: totally immature and without any real motive to start with. From this immature and innocent stage, the boys--and Ralph in particular--have a long way to fall before they can experience what creating a viable civilization really is like. Ralph's jubilation at the thought of "no grownups" makes one wonder exactly how much he has to learn to mature. What will bring about this maturity, and will the other boys learn the same way as him? This is a totally unprecedented, new situation where practically anything really could happen.
Also-- I wonder how significant it is that Golding keeps describing Ralph as standing on his head. Is this just an indication of his playfulness, or perhaps to show his change in perspective?
Delete"When’ll your dad rescue us?”
ReplyDelete“Soon as he can.” (pg 13)
This quote stood out to me because it makes it clear that without adults present, the schoolboys are going to struggle being on their own. A young individual is dependent on their parents or the adult in certain situations because they are inexperienced in life. Jack's inability to kill the pig proves this because although he is amongst the oldest, he is just a kid. He couldn't end the life of an animal not because of his age, but because of his innonce as a child. Piggy, on the other hand, only believes that without an adult, they won't be able to escape and survive. He is just going to continue to depend and rely on adults like Ralph's dad, for rescue. This shows how these boys are very young and can't imagine being on their own and doing certain things on their own, without adult supervision. This makes me realize that if Jack had a parent or an adult present, he would have been able to kill the pig or watch the adult kill the pig because he couldn't do such a thing. Also, Piggy would have felt a lot comfortable being on this deserted island if an adult were present. At a point in life, these kids will be able to do things on their own, but at this age, they're going to have to wait.
" 'They used to call me 'Piggy'' Ralph shrieked with laughter. he jumped up. 'Piggy, Piggy.!' 'Ralph—please! Piggy clasped his hands in apprehension. 'I said I didn't want—' 'Piggy! Piggy!'" (9)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it showed that even from the beginning, Piggy is the boy who is singled out. He is the "different one," and that is why he is picked on. He clearly states that he does not want to be called piggy but Ralph deliberately ignores his wishes. The boys treat Piggy as if he is lesser than they are. I think it's ironic how the boys are stranded on the island and are required to quickly mature and take on a huge amount of responsibility, however they continue to tease and hurt Piggy just like children. The whole situation is just very unnerving because I can tell that there is going to be much more harm coming to Piggy in the future of the book.
I agree with the fact that Piggy is the one singled out. He seems to be the one who is always getting picked on, and he was trying to leave his past behind when he told Ralph that he would be called anything but Piggy. He thought that maybe if he got a new name, it would somehow change his identity and who he is. He wanted to be known as more then the fat kid, but because Ralph didn't stand up for him when he had the chance, he will always be known as Piggy.
Delete"The circle of boys broke into applause. Even the choir applauded and the freckles on Jack's face disappeared under a blush of mortification."(23)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stuck out to me because it reminded me the idea of "human nature". In the past weeks in my history class we have been discussing different types of philosophers in the enlightenment era. One of those philosophers were Thomas Hobbes and he stated "If any two men desire the same thing, which never less they cannot both enjoy, they become enemies" Thomas Hobbes statement clearly depicts the situation that Ralph and Jack has been on choosing a leader. I think this quote foreshadows on how both Ralph and Jack will become rivals later on the book because, they both want power and control on how to run the group. Ralph having the most votes this somewhat angers Jack and even leaving him embarrassed. I believe this tension that Jack has towards Ralph will further proceed in the book until it erupts in this state of chaos. Also, this quote had me questioning on how the state of nature applies to a person of any age. And how young boys are capable to have these emotions of wanting control or being a leader and exposing anger towards one of another. Or, the question of that each person is born with intentions of being cruel and we naturally developed them.
"Aren't you going to swim?' Piggy shook his head. 'I can't swim. i wasn't allowed. My asthma-' 'Sucks to your ass-mar' (13).
ReplyDeleteI thought that this quote showed to relationship that Piggy and Ralph were building. They both have completely different views on approaching things. While Piggy is hesitant to disobeying his aunts rules, Ralph was ready to ignore all rules and do what he wants. Piggy puts more thought into his actions, and is cautious in what he does. Ralph goes right ahead with his instinct and believes in all that he does. This is why he makes a good leader, leaders tend to act on what they think would be best. They believe so much in themselves, that they make others believe and trust in what they are doing. Piggy is also trying to make a friendship with Ralph but putting trust in him, while Ralph is somewhat above the idea of friendship (not really--trying to by cool) that he does not put in effort. I think that it was also interesting how Ralph was able to take control and make order over the kids because in a situation like this, where they are stuck on an island with no parents, you would think the kids would all be panicking, but with the leadership of Ralph and all the others helping, they did not seem too afraid. (or maybe they are and were just trying not to show it)
"The creature was a party of boys, marching approximately in step in two parallel lines" (19)This stood out to me because, it was strange how such young boys could get in to a plane crash and be so calm and keep order. I think this shows how even though chaos is happening kids still like order because even after that they voted on who they wanted to be chief, like they needed someone to give them direction. And this started out there little community in a democracy but we don't know yet if it will turn in to a monarchy with only one boy giving the direction.
ReplyDeleteGood point! Also-- interesting that Golding describes the group as a "creature."
Delete"You could see now that he might make a boxer, as far as width and heaviness of shoulders went, but there was a mildness about his mouth and eyes that proclaimed no devil"(8).
ReplyDeleteThis stood out to me because piggy physically seems like the dominate person between him and Ralph. However, Ralph takes pleasure in Piggy's misfortunes. Piggy tolerates Ralph because he does not have the personality of a person who will fight back, and is in fear on being on his own.
Isn't this a description of Ralph?
Delete" Aren't there any grownup's at all , I don't think so" (8)
ReplyDeleteThis quote for me stood out because it really informed the reader on further events in the book to take place as the plot develops. This quote tells us that the way that this civilization will be formed is purely human nature because if they were grown up's, they would form it like the government they have in their native country. The fact that these are children is what makes it possible to use human nature as the whole ingredient to their society. If there was a grown up this would be more civilized and it would be like a democracy or what ever form of government the grown up believes in. This quote being very short but grand in meaning is a very healthy contributor to the plot of course because like I explained, it would greatly change the story. I also want to talk about how this is a purely human phycology experiment. I feel this because these children are young and they have not indulged in politics for some of the children are no older than six. This is where human psychology is going to take initiative and control the island. In human nature it is natural for a ruler to prevail out of the masses to become the leader of the society. Secondly it is also in human nature for a second or third party to object to the ruler and feel that their system is greater therefore having a rivalry in the society. This has taken place when Jack contest to the ruling that Ralph is the chief of their civilization. This tells me that the story will stick to human nature's idea of a civilization rather than the individuals idea's. When you give someone nothing they act using human psychology to shape their ideas giving them a backbone at a fairly scary time. Their sub conscious will prevail unlocking the deep, complicated, vicious nature to human's and society.
The Lord of the flies is an interesting reading and the passage that stood out for me the post was the one when ralph was on the beach. "He was old enough, twelve years and a few months to have lost tje prominent tummy of childhood and not yet old enough for adolescence to had made him awkward." (10) This passage stood out to me becasue i feel it is realted to the theme of coming of age. He is going through that phase, which every teen goes through when he is becoming an teen. The phase that you go throuhg before you become a teen is called a "tween." I would know this because my sister says to me all the time to make fun of me. But i believe coming of age is going to be a significant theme through out the story because Ralph is going to get thoughts and experience new things, all the things that happen when you go through this phase. Also. people are going to judge him because they might not like the person who is becoming and he is going to be acting really awkward, i mean he is also considered weird by the others, so he is going to be extra weird when he going through this phase and i have a feeling he is going to be singled out through out the story. This passage was really interesting and i think Ralph is going to turn out to be someone everyone likes.
ReplyDelete-Simren
There really is no specific quote that really stood out to me. However, there are a few sections in chapter one that stood out to me. William Golding does a good job using metaphors and imagery. When Ralph and Piggy first discovered that there are other kids on the island too, Golding uses the word “creature” to describe the others. This was really obscured because why didn’t he just say that this group of kids was showing up from behind the trees and instead he calls them creatures as if the kids are not humans but instead they are animals that belong in the jungle and wild life. Another part that stood out to me was when the kids laughed at Piggy because of his name and his looks. In “A Very Old Man with Enormous Wings” the old man and the spider woman gets picked on because they are both considered “freaks” and they stood out to people because they were different. Piggy faces a situation similar to the old man and the spider woman because he has a funny name and he is “fat”.
ReplyDelete"Within the irregular arc of coral the lagoon was still as a mountain lake- blue of all shades and shadowy green and purple." (10)
ReplyDeleteEven though this quote seems to have nothing going on, i still chose it for a reason. something i found interesting about this was how serene it sounded- like the island was a place of peace, and of easy living. Something i found interesting was the quote that came a little after it as well...
"He became conscious of the weight of clothes, kicked his shoes off fiercely, and ripped off each stocking with its elastic garter in a single movement."
The fact that these quotes are placed so close together is really interesting and that's what caught my attention. Going from something so colorful, and serene, to violent and wild behavior was a quick and pretty extreme transition. I also find it really important that he shows such signs of wild behavior so early in the book.
I agree as well, he almost gives little hints As to what things will come as in the future. Also these quotes where very to mine because of almost the highs and lows of the sentence "fiercfully" the "ripped" and then "stockings". I don't know if this make sends but it's almost high high low, meaning the word stockings would be a soft word then then other two aren't. This create more dept of the description instead of a regular description anyone could do.
Delete"Within the diamond haze of the beach something dark was fumbling along. Ralph saw it first, and watched till the intentness of his gaze drew all eyes that way".(pg. 18)
ReplyDeleteThis was a quote I found interesting because of the authors choice of word. "Diamond haze" makes the sentence feel far more hypnotizing, then fumbling along gives the objects which are the choir boys much more movement. Even later in the passage it's said, "Then the creature stepped from mirage on to clear sand..." Writers always know, other ways of putting normal sentences into something this isn't expected. Goldings choice of word gives the presence of a myjestic feeling of being dazed and confused, which is why it stood out to me the most.