For
tonight's blog, please choose a line from the text, quote it (with the
page number), and then ask a question based off of this line. What does the line mean? What does it say about war/the effects of war? What could characters, moments or details represent/signify on a larger scale? What is Vonnegut saying about consumerism, religion, social activism vs. apathy or innocence and their relationship to war? Then, try to answer your own question. Dig deep. Perhaps try out a couple of potential answers. Perhaps, in your answer, provide/connect your analysis to an idea of a piece of textual evidence from earlier in the novel.
YOU MUST ALSO RESPOND TO A CLASSMATE'S QUESTION. Agree or disagree, but make sure that you add something new-- a new idea, a reference to another part of the book. Include textual evidence as you push the conversation forward.
Format:
"...." (#).
Question:
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ReplyDelete“The Englishman touched him explanatorily here and there, filled with pity. “My God—what have they done to you lad? This isn’t a man. It’s a broken kite”(124).
ReplyDelete[I have a different version with different page numbers]
Q: What does this say about the effects of war? Are they direct and/or long-term?
In this passage, Billy is looked down upon with “pity”. The Englishman sees him as a victim, which is what Vonnegut wants us to see. Billy has been so deeply and negatively affected by the war, others no longer see him as human. After being hit hard by the war, he more closely represents a “broken kite”— something frail, fragile and vulnerable— than a human being. In this passage Vonnegut is showing the direct effects that war has on young soldiers. He is showing how physically taxing war can be. After the Englishman asks Billy this question, Billy is unable to muster up the strength to answer him, showing the mental impact of war. War has both internally and externally drained Billy and all others affected by war. War did not only impact Billy while he was currently in the war. It lasts long after, and Vonnegut argues that the atrocity of war and death stays with you forever. As Billy travels through time, shown in chapter four, memories of war overpower his vision making him unable to see anything that doesn’t take him back (literally) to WWII. He mentions that “the stripes are orange and black”(91) on his daughters wedding tent, which is the same color as the POW train cars from the war. War continuously consumes Billy both during and long after the war.
I agree that long after the war Billy still suffers from the memories of such a gruesome event. It's saddening to see how such an interesting character like Billy is no longer the same after the violent events from the war. I wonder, though, if it is true that Billy and most of the surviving soldiers as well repeatedly reflect on the war, burdened by their memories, than how does this challenge the human claim of being "free?" In the case of the war veterans, Are these veterans sincerely living under freewill because it seems to be that even after the war, they live as though they are still prisoners.
DeleteI agree and I think that here Vonnegut is trying to reiterate that this is an anti-war story. He is trying to show how harmful war can be and how damaging it can be. I think we can relate this to chapter 1, when he promises Mary that he won't glorify war at all like is usually done. He now has a duty to her and to every one who has experienced war and has been burdened by those memories, to cement how adamantly opposed he is to war. This is just one of the many examples throughout the book of him highlighting what war can do to a person, and this is important to him because he doesn't want to make war seem at all "not so bad", instead he wants people to know what goes on and what it does to people.
DeleteI strongly agree. I think Billy being tossed into war on such a short notice and so random like that really affected him, and the Englishman can see that already by looking at him. What Billy has seen and experienced probably devastated him and scarred him deeply. Any one that has experienced war can explain the terror that comes with war. Billy is fragile at this moment of the book, he is broken.
DeleteI believe that this passage represents a moment of humanity, where the English had previously been described as finding a way to cope as prisoners of war by creating an enviorment for themselves in which they make the best of the situation and maintain their morality. The Englishmen is showing true compassion to Billy, where he is honestly concerned about him,that he has been victimized by the enemy to the point where he is comical and an object of humliation.
Delete
ReplyDelete"Rosewater was twice as smart as Billy, but he and Billy were dealing with similar crises in similar ways. They had both found life meaningless, partly because of what they had seen in the war...they were trying to re-invent themselves and their universe. Science fiction was a big help"(Vonnegut 101).
The question that I posed after reading this chapter was, why does Vonnegut create a character like Rosewater,whom is extremely interested and involved with science fiction novels? Why are these fantastical stories that he reads such a priority and why does it take precedence over communicating with real people in the real world,(i.e. Billy's mom on page 104)? Why is the idea of science fiction and fantastical elements a reoccuring motif in the novel? What is the significance of the genres?
The reader is informed that both Billy and Rosewater were associated with terrible massacres and violent experiences during the war, all of which undoubtedly alter their perception of the current world. With that information alone, we can assume that these horrendous events have never really vanished; there are still repercussions that all soldiers must deal with after all the fighting is done and so many people have been slaughtered. An attempt at answering my own question is inferring that science fiction is vital in the lives of both Billy and Rosewater because it gives them a chance at escaping their harsh world and abandoning it for a more enchanting new one; one where there are no bad memories of bloodbaths and cold massacres. In my opinion, I believe that Billy's association with the aliens from Tralfamadore permits him to be exposed to another world where there are no fixed events, thus no lifespan and no real deaths and births. Billy is described to be so mesmerized by that fact there is no set lifespan and especially no death, his belief in this world is his coping mechanism.
In the same way Rosewater's science fiction novels allow him to escape to a fantastical world, one where he can abandon and escape all the pain he lives in, and the past that he drags along with him. The sci-fi tales of vampires, and werewolves and supernatural characters that allow him to suppress his memories from reality. I think Vonnegut repeats the idea of science fiction so repetitively with Billy and Rosewater because he wants to illustrate the psychological repercussions that soldiers must deal with after experiencing so much violence from war. Additionally I think Vonnegut also means to demonstrate the fact that these said soldiers desperately search for something to help them to escape the memories and guilt of knowing that they have witnessed the death of so many. Vonnegut uses science-fiction's fantastical elements as the soldier's escape from their memories to a extraterrestrial world; this, is their coping mechanism.
I completely agree. Every time Billy time travels, he is able to escape the war encompassing him. When Billy attempts to share the Tralfamadorian's ideas he says, "They had so many wonderful things to teach Earthlings, especially about time"(26). Billy says this with a positive connotation implying that he likes this theory and wants to live by it. He is too afraid of death and war to deal with it. Part of their view is that time melds together. Instead of facing death and pain, he lives by this idea introduced to him by aliens which allows him to view death as temporary or non existent. He believes that all of the other happy moments live on forever. It provides him with peace. Because of the numerous deaths he witnesses, it is the only way he can escape the pain.
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ReplyDelete"There isn't any particular relationship between the messages, except that the author has chosen them carefully, so that, when seen all at once, they produce an image of life that is beautiful and surprising and deep. There is no beginning, no middle, no end, no suspense, no moral, no causes, no effects. What we love in our books are the depths of many marvelous moments seen all at one time" (88)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Does Vonnegut use this passage to talk about his won writing?
This question is a little vague, but I'm not really sure about how to put it into words, so here is basically my thoughts. Slaughterhouse Five is a novel, but it is also based on a lot of things that happened in Vonnegut's life. Throughout the book, Billy Pilgrim has kind of represented Vonnegut in a way without being direct. And in class Ms. Kaufman said a few times that Vonnegut writes a lot about writing. So he has a way that he believes writing should be structured, and he often writes about how writing should be written (if that makes any sense). I think that once again, he is using parts of his real life in the novel, and the actual book Slaughterhouse Five is written like this Salvadorian novel. In Slaughterhouse Five, the moments aren't really stitched together in one continuous timeline, but they are scattered around time while Billy travels through time. This is like how the Tralfamadorians think of time as each moment being separate from the next and each always existing in time. Vonnegut wrote the book almost as if he was writing a "Tralfamadorian novel". Also, each passage that Vonnegut writes is chosen and can be put together in the reader's mind into a big picture, just like the Tralfamadorian novel. Basically I just think that he is putting a little bit of his own thoughts on writing into his fictional novel.
Wow, sorry, that shouldn't say Salvadorian. That was autocorrect.
DeleteI completely agree with that. Honestly I hadn't noticed this connection. Vonnegut constantly uses symbolism in his writing and this would be a clear representation of just that. The way the novel is written is very unique just as the Tralfamadorians would write their novel. Maybe Vonnegut is trying to express how the Tralfamadorian life-style is superior to the human life-style?
Delete"So they were trying to re-invent themselves and their universe. Science fiction was big help" (Vonnegut, 101)
ReplyDeleteI wonder why re-invent, is it because they can escape the reality and enter into another world one that is perfect and that doesn't have children fighting, or because in this new world they can actually find life interesting?
I feel that this quote hints of PSTD that Billy is facing. He jumps from being at the hospital in somewhere safe to being at the hospital during war. These two moments are so very different like they are alike. First of all Billy's mother is the woman who worries for Billy even though Billy doesn't want her to see him. In the war Billy has nobody who worries for him. For intense, Derby even said that Billy was alive although it seemed like he wasn't because nobody cared for him. Science-fiction is a way for Billy to escape from reality because it allows Billy to decide whether what he read should be truth or not. In addition his ideas of these aliens make him belief that science-fiction can be true. War made life meaningless because of what Billy saw at war. The hospital lady in the war even told him that it seemed as if there was a bunch of kids just fighting among each other. Vonnegut shows his feelings by using Billy to portray them. For example, Vonnegut was the person who wrote about war using time travel. I think that it is science-fiction were BIlly and Vonnegut find escape because of the decision of whether or not it is true.
I completely agree with you on the aspect that science fiction is an escape for both Vonnegut and Billy, and that both moments are similar.I also thought that the first moment that he enters the hospital during the war foreshadows the problems he will have later on in life. However, I don't think that science fiction has to do with time travelling, I think that's more about his PTSD and his hallucinations. Also , it is true that he was alone for much of the war, but I don't think he seeks comfort in science fiction, he just wants to enjoy something that isn't real since all the things he saw in the war were very traumatizing.
DeleteI completely agree, I think that Vonnegut slips in many examples of Billy's PTSD symptoms throughout the book. For example, in chapter 3, he writes "Every so often, for no apparent reason, Billy Pilgrim would find himself weeping"(61) This quote, among many others that are most likely hidden, or not so hidden, in the text represent to me that Vonnegut is trying to insinuate that Billy does indeed have PTSD, but does not want to come out and openly say it. I could be wrong, its just an idea I have but to me it seems quite obvious that Vonnegut is trying to hint at something along those lines.
DeleteI really agree with your points of PTSD and the idea that children are fighting this war. That being said, I'm sorry to say that I don't think that Billy is trying to find some basis of the idea that science-fiction is truth. I talked about something similar in my post in that it seems he is possibly getting through the war and through his PTSD with his memories of a good, safe, and care-time, like his daughter's wedding. Ironically, even in these moments, he thinks about the war and the devastating toll it takes on him. Often literature and writing is therapeutic, I think he is using this fiction, (or in this book possible truth) to help him get over the idea that he watched so many men die and he couldn't. This connects to a question I have recently talked about a lot: "Why me?"
DeleteI think your idea is great. I feel as if in this novel, the reader knows way beyond what Billy knows about himself. We see his symptoms, we know what PTSD is, and we know signs of it. Billy is desperate to find an escape and anything that will entertain his new mind that has been created due to WWII. His issues create a more dramatic story but they still stay true to how Vonnegut was trying to write his novel. Making the story more exciting through Billy, while staying true to it's roots, gives Vonnegut his own outlet to get through his issues.
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ReplyDeleteBarak Harari-
ReplyDelete"On the eighth day the forty-year-old hobo said to Billy, 'This ain't bad. I can be comfortable anywhere.' 'You can?' said Billy. On the ninth day, the hobo died. So it goes. His last words were, 'You think this is bad? This ain't bad.' There was something about death and the ninth day. There was a death on the ninth day in the car ahead of Billy's too. Ronald Weary died--of gangrene that had started in his mangled feet. So it goes." (79)
Question- Does the hobo have a deeper meaning?
This passage represents the character roles of the hobo, Ronald Weary, and even Billy Pilgrim. For instance the hobo represents a man who doesn't complain much and accepts things how they are. However, Ronald represents a man who worries a lot and always considers the results of his actions. Although these men are opposites they both represent a cause and have something to believe in/live for. On the other hand, Billy is a neutral character who simply does as he is told. The fact that Billy was the one to survive out of the 3 of them connects to his survivors guilt. He feels as if he doesn't deserve to live because his life is meaningless. Ironically both characters die on the exact same day and this seems like a big cause of Billy's major PTSD.
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DeleteI agree with you completely while reading this I was thinking the old man is very humble, he like you said doesn't ask for much. The deaths of the two men might very well be the cause of PTSD or for the most part the further cause of it. While also reading your post I noticed that you said that Billy follows orders or does as told and I agree like towards the end of chapter 3 and beginning of chapter 4 when taken by the Tralfamadorian a Billy only asks why and when told that why does anything happen, he sort of just takes that for an answer. I personally would have asked more but Billy is like a zombie almost he thinks but doesn't act unless he has to. I now really wonder even more why it is that Vonnegut choose Billy as his character for the book, Billy is really intresting and simple at the same time. (Sorry for being a little off track of what you said.)
DeleteI absolutely agree with you, Barak. This makes me think about war itself, and who exactly should be recruited in terms of size, experience, will, etc. The thing you mentioned that really caught my attention was the part where you said "they both represent a cause and have something to believe in/live for." It makes me think about the state Billy is in: will he be mentally prepared for all the harsh days ahead?
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ReplyDelete"Derby told him he was forty-five, which was two years older than the colonel. The colonel said that the other Americans had all shaved now, that Billy and Derby were the only two still with beards. And he said,"You know-we've had to imagine the war here, and we have imagined that it was being fought by aging men like ourselves. We had forgotten that wars were fought by babies. When I saw those freshly shaved faces, it was a shock." 'My God, my God-' I said to myself, 'It's the Children's Crusade.' "(106)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Vonnegut reference the "Children's Crusade", does this have to do with his thoughts on anti-war, or is this simply because in all honesty wars are really fought by babies?
Earlier in the novel O'Hares wife says that war is fought like children very much like its said above, I agree with this because war doesn't end until you come to an agreement and children don't agree. If war were fought by men like Billy and even Derby then it'd be different, there probably wouldn't be as much conflict. Although this might make little sense, if you think about it children are at their best arrogant and unwilling to compromise two things that in war make bigger problems. Vonnegut makes these references because he's making the point that war if fought by men rather than children that It'd be a lot easier to negotiate and end. If instead of randomly putting men on the filed like Billy and we'd put men aged and more experienced out there wars would be easier to resolve because those are the people with experiences on dealing with these things. Then again these children sent out to war are sent out by who, more children. I picked this because unlike Vonnegut I never saw war like this, I thought it was funny in way that he referces to war as being fought by children I always thought it was about honor and defending your country but now I think otherwise. Vonnegut showed me through his very detailed descriptions of the places Billy travels that war isn't a pretty thing and that if fought by experienced people ready for this that it'd go a lot easier.
I agree with you Jose. However, I think that Vonnegut includes this quote not to prove a point that if men were put into war that it would be resolved easier and quicker, I think that Vonnegut includes this quote to disprove the stereotype that people in the army are heroes the likes of Sinatra. I think this quote is used to protest war, and is showing that war is in fact fought by young men, or babies.
Delete"Billy Pilgrim dressed himself. He put on the little overcoat, too. It split up the back, and, at the shoulders, the sleeves came entirely free. So the coat became a fur-collared vest. It was meant to flare at it's owner's waist, but the flaring took place at Billy's armpits. The Germans found him to be one of the most screamingly funny things they had seen in all of World War Two. They laughed and laughed." (90)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Kurt Vonnegut choose to describe the clothes in such a distasteful manner?
I believe that Kurt Vonnegut chooses to describe the clothes of Billy Pilgrim so viciously in order to showcase the toll that not only the war going on around Billy Pilgrim is taking on him, but also to describe how Billy Pilgrim feels about himself as a person. Billy does not really have much left. He's experienced enough mayhem, death and carnage that a thousand people living in the present day could experience in their collective lifetimes. The part that really got to me was this sentence: "The Germans found him to be one of the most screamingly funny things they had seen in all of World War Two." Of all the people being prosecuted, beaten, assaulted and killed during this time, they look at Billy and practically say to him "you are more meaningless than the dirt we step on and the dirt they're dead in." If you are applying for a job, and you hand in a résumé that you believe will get you the job, and the employer tells you you are way incapable of even thinking about getting a job here, it will surely ruin your confidence and damage you as a person altogether. Billy, to the Germans, is not even capable of living a life at that time, and he might as well be nothing. Another quick reason as to why I believe Kurt Vonnegut chose to describe the clothes this way is to make the readers (which is us) feel sympathy for Billy Pilgrim.
I completely agree with you, and I did not realize the significance of the clothes until now, I agree with you that Vonnegut chose to highlight the clothing in order to show the toll of the war on Billy and how low Billy is feeling. I also think the clothing was highlighted to show the level of vulnerability that Billy is feeling right now. Billy is not protected, wearing a dead man's coat that is later described as barely a level of warmth, rather something comical for the Germans, he must be feeling vulnerable and Vonnegut is describing his clothing to display that. I disagree when you say that Vonnegut wants us to sympathize with Billy I think that Vonnegut rather wants us to understand what Billy is going through and understand how hard it is for him, not pity him.
DeleteI agree with both you guys because that really shows how Billy has given up on his own life. If he wearing clothes that are embarrassing and he don't even care it really shows that he don't care about what he does or what he looks like to other people. Billy is lost in his memories that he is not really living in the present time
Delete"On the eighth day the forty-year-old hobo said to Billy, 'This ain't bad. I can be comfortable anywhere.' 'You can?' said Billy. On the ninth day, the hobo died. So it goes. His last words were, 'You think this is bad? This ain't bad.' There was something about death and the ninth day. There was a death on the ninth day in the car ahead of Billy's too. Ronald Weary died--of gangrene that had started in his mangled feet. So it goes." (Page 79)
ReplyDeleteWhat does the death of the hobo and Ronald Weary represent about the survival of Billy? How has he survived out of all people?
Billy Pilgrim's sort of miraculous survival through war, which occurs multiple times, says something about death and how it can hit anyone. Billy Pilgrim is running on a lot of luck in my opinion. The fact that he is just following around not really knowing what's going on, goes with the flow and follows what he is told makes it surprising that he survived over the hobo who accepts things as they are in his own hobo way, and Ronald Weary who completely is a worry freak, constantly cautious and scared. The hobo and Ronald are like opposites in how their characters are. This shows that kind of no matter how you live, what you decide to do (worrying like Ronald or accepting like the hobo) death can still happen, and this kind of shocks Billy that they both die on the same day also.
Maggie Miller
ReplyDelete(pg 98) "Another American volunteered to watch over him. This volunteer was Edger Derby,the high school teacher who would be shot to death in Dresden. So it goes."
(pg 100) "The man assigned to the bed next to Billy's was a former infantry captain named Eliot Rosewater."
I chose these two quotes to discuss them together. The first quote talks about when he is in the war, in the hospital being taken care of and Edger Derby is reading him a book. The second quote is in a hospital after the war, to which, he checks himself into because he believes he is crazy. The second quote goes on with the person laying in the bed next to him, in the hospital, reading books to him. I chose these two quotes to discuss them together to analyze the big topic of Time Travel and why it occurs at the certain moments it does. The first quote, I chose to end it by including the "so it goes" part because I believe this is a key element in the Time Travel. I believe Vonnegut chose to have the phrase "so it goes" mean that whatever is going on is important for later, almost like Vonnegut is preparing the reader for what is ahead. The key thing I wanted to point out about Time Travel in these two quotes is that, Billy, Time Travels every time the experience that is occurring has happened similarly in his life whether before the present or in the future. In these two quotes he is in the war, in a hospital being read a story then he time travels to when he is in a hospital and the person lying next to him is reading a story. I believe the significance of this is to point out that he isn't randomly Time Traveling, he is particularly going to these moments for a reason, which partly is that not everything in life occurs once. Like laying in a hospital bed being read to might not literally happen again, although it did within these two quotes and Billy's Time Travel, but maybe being sick and cared for will occur again and Billy is reminded that not everything in life occurs just once, there are many chances and each one needs to be taken advantage of. I think the Time Travel not only talks to having many chances to change an activity or say something different, but the Time Travel provides a way for Billy to feel the emotions he felt during the moments he travels to all over again, if he was vulnerable, happy, or sad. By Time Traveling Billy feels those emotions all over again, gets re-exposed and I believe it makes him a bit vulnerable.
Also my question was, What is time travel really discussing in the story and how does it effect Billy?
Delete- Sorry it got deleted
"The American fliers turned in their uniforms, became high school kids. And Hitler turned into a baby, Billy Pilgrim supposed."(75)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Vonnegut have Billy see the war movie backwards then forwards? What is he trying to say about war?
I think that Vonnegut uses the quote as another way to protest war. While looking back on war it is easy to forgot that the atrocities caused during the war were committed by humans. This is why Vonnegut includes Hitler turning into a baby. In reminding us that humans commit horrible things during war, Vonnegut is trying to say that war makes people do dreadful things. Vonnegut uses the American fliers turning into high school students to remind people that most of the people that fought during the war were young adults: or babies as Ms. O'Hare would say.
"The British had no way of knowing it, but the candles and the soap were made from the fat of rendered Jews and Gypsies and fairies and communists, and other enemies of the state. So it goes," (pg.96)
ReplyDeleteQ: Why does Vonnegut use this dark, dry sense of humor? What point is he trying to get across?
A: Throughout the chapters so far, I have noticed that Vonnegut will use a certain tone to describe horrific occurrences. He sometimes will write in a simple, normal tone and then jump into describe something dark. Many times I will have to re-read the sentence to make sure I read it right. In this quote, the prior paragraph was talking about the British and how cheery and settled they were despite the fact they were prisoners, and suddenly Vonnegut writes about "the soap were made from the fat of rendered Jews...". He makes many oppositions and contradictions, for example this quote and how soap is suppose to be clean and refreshing, however it being made from dead peoples' fat makes the soap disgusting and gruesome. Perhaps what Vonnegut is trying to get across is the many aspects of war and how sometimes, among the chaos and misery, there are peaceful moments that can take a soldier back to their former life. However, those moments can be quickly taken away from the harsh reality that war is brutal. This may also be linked to the idea of time travelling and how in certain times during the war he will "travel" to his past and lose track of time. I could be wrong, but oppositions seem really significant so far in the story.
This is a spot-on observation. Vonnegut mixes in harsh and dark language sporadically throughout an almost monotonous storytelling voice. Another example of this is Vonnegut's explanation of the tag Billy must wear: "In case Billy died, which he didn't, half of the tag would mark his body and half would mark his grave" (92). This language seems as though he is making a perfectly normal observation; the tone itself is not harsh or dark. However, if one reads "in between the lines" it is clear that this is Vonnegut speaking through about how 'normal' this may seem in war while it is morbid and morally wrong (shining more light on his anti-war theme).
DeleteYou also say that "Among the chaos and misery, there are peaceful moments that can take a soldier back to their former life." I agree, and I think the opposite is also true. While a peaceful moment during a war may trigger a childhood memory, any moment after a war may trigger an in-war memory. This is what happens to Billy, which we get an incredible notion of in the beginning of the fourth chapter and all his parallels to his experience as a prisoner of war.
I agree with your observations on Vonnegut's tone in the book, but I do think that he hides behind the dark humor. I feel that every author has his way of expressing himself to readers, but then I think the obvious question would be: What's the point of the tone he's using?. I thought maybe it was just his personality or that was just his way of creating an imagery in the readers mind of a specific scene. Like when he said "Among the chaos and misery, there are peaceful moments that can take a soldier back to their former life.", with the type of tome he uses it can create an image in your head of both sad and happy moments, even when his tones seems to be leaning more on the happy moments. And I also agree that it might have something to do with time travel when connected to Billy. So, basically the war could be a trigger for the time traveling.
DeleteI wonder if it is just me, but I am very interested in Vonnegut's use of dark humor. It is refreshingly, interesting. I agree with both of you. It does seem like he is making an observation, then it switches it and turns it into something else. Valerie, your point is so well put. I also believe that he is trying to show that peace and misery are two sides of the same coin. Meaning that one cannot exist without the other. In class we talked about the wedding quote and how you cant get over war. Well, I feel that Vonnegut uses this style of writing to shine "more light on his anti-war theme" as Valerie put it.
Delete“‘Why me?’ he asked the guard.
ReplyDeleteThe guard shoved him back into ranks. ‘Vy you? Vy anybody?’ He said.” (Vonnegut 91)
Q: What is Vonnegut’s view of the moral code that is held during wartime?
Vonnegut is showing that soldiers, in order to fight will treat their “enemy” not as humans with feelings but as soul-less entities without individual identities. This helps them live with themselves because they have been directed to become killing machines. He shows us that there is no space for ethics and morals during war time and that we remove peoples individual identities to make us feel that we are not in fact, killing a person but a “soldier” or a number. Although, Billy Pilgrim is able to survive many of these traumatic experiences and remember his identity because he is capable of traveling back in time and reminding himself who he is and where he came from. In addition this quote in particular is further enhanced, because Vonnegut uses a German accent of the German soldier in the text. This technique highlights to the reader that theses two men are enemies in the war, and gives to the American reader of the book a tone of racial superiority in the English language.
I completely agree with you on this and it is really well said. It is also very peculiar that even someone on the opposing side of this war would still be able to relate to Billy. In this book, war is a common understanding. It is horrible for everyone and it shows the connection and the horrid of the way. War is interpreted as a great fight. This is not completely true here and you can tell because of the helplessness that both Billy and the guard had. In normal guesses they would be happy to have Billy but they are all just as miserable. Also, one question that one might never know the answer to is, if people cannot travel back and remind themselves of who they were, how does anyone survive war?
Delete"And Tralfamadorians don't see human beings as two legged creatures, either. They see them as great millepedes- 'with babies' legs at one end and old people's legs at the other"(87)
ReplyDeleteQ: Why is the author choosing for them to say this in relation to Billy's life? What is he trying to reveal about humans?
Vonnegut is trying to say that humans are just one big time line. This is almost to make Billy feel better about progressing and having to do with time travel. People never loose what happened to them in the past just like most people believe. It is believed by most that people grow and forget what happened and their future doesn't have anything to do with there presence now in life. The Tralfamadorian's are trying to say that the future in a humans life ( the old people legs) really have to do with development and so do the baby legs. Those are the distinct parts of life that really change you. The millipede body is just the blurry timeline in between and as Billy Pilgrim time travels through out this blurry millipede life of his he is discovering how much his future does mean to him and how influential it is to development. This is also something that Billy is creating to make him feel better about himself. Normally when people have reassurance about a problem by someone who agrees, things go more their way.
"This volunteer was Edgar Derby, the high school teacher who would be shot to death in Dresden" (98-99).
ReplyDeleteWhat is Vonnegut trying to express through the concept of "all time is all time"?
This teacher who is to be shot in Dresden is mentioned quite a lot as he interacts with Billy. I feel that, whether he really is time travelling or he is simply reliving his life through memories, he knows that Derby will die, yet he thinks nothing of it. It is simply a label. This is clearly an effect of his Tralfamadorian philosophy, yet what I'd like to focus on is why Vonnegut chose to integrate this philosophy into Billy's everyday happenings.
I think Vonnegut is using this complex idea of time travel and this practically unthinkable Tralfamadorian philosophy to express the difficulty involved in explaining and living through war as well as the irrationality of it. I remember that in the interview we saw, Vonnegut said something along the lines of "You can't write pure nonsense." This is what war must have felt like to him, and what war is to Billy Pilgrim. Billy Pilgrim is a dummy or stand-in; a fictional character Vonnegut chose to go through what he himself went through. My idea is that Vonnegut uses these over-the-top or nonsensical concepts to get through to the reader exactly what he felt during and after his experiences.
" 'Why me?' he asked the guard.
ReplyDeleteThe guard shoved him back into ranks. 'Vy you? Vy anybody?' he said." (91).
Question: Why does Vonnegut repeat this idea of the "Why me?" question? Is he trying to create an analogy between the Trafalmadorians and the Germans?
Answer: Today in class we talked a lot about, or I talked a lot about, the idea of "Why Billy" and of course as the German soldier says above" "Vy anybody?" I don't know if this seems way to strikingly obvious to not mention but I thought that it was interesting, so here I am writing about it. I wonder why Vonnegut writes this idea, reoccurring, throughout the book so far at least. It seems that he is trying to connect these two experiences, Billy's experience in time travel and the Tralfamdorians and his experience in the war. He does this with what I believe to be the possibility that instead of time traveling, he keeps flashing back to good (or maybe bad) times in his life. I may be wrong, but not only as I said in class, has his time traveling been limited to his lifetime, but I think it has only been an event from the past. It does not seem to have jumped into the future. Again, this is a guess, I am not entirely sure but as of yet, I don't remember him mentioning traveling to the future. I think that Vonnegut is trying to connect his experience in the war to Billy's. This question comes up again with that connection: " 'Why me?'."It becomes extremely apparent that Billy lacks immense amounts of fear. I have a great feeling that this was the same for Vonnegut. Maybe the only way he could get through the war everyday in all of its horribilities (is that a word?), was to think of a time when stress, risk of death, and weaponry was not a concern of his. I get the feeling that maybe Billy is substituting his past memories with supposed "time travels." Maybe it makes him feel more in control as if he is actually able to escape the moment without the consequence of pretending to space out or spacing out in a moment. I also think that maybe he connects the Germans to the Tralfamdorians in that their perspectives on life (although different from each others in reality) are different from Billy's to the extent where they are nearly incomprehensible to him. The radicalist ideas of the Tralfmadorians and the Germans' tendency to lack empathy, blame events on groups of people for no reason, and as we all know, commit genocide.
I meant to say "Billy lacks immense amounts of courage" sorry
DeleteI agree that Vonnegut's analogy of the Germans versus the Tralfamadorians is worth great analysis. I also agree in part that Billy's experience with Tralfamadore draws parallels with his experience in the POW camp. I think that his experience in the POW camp inspires his experience on Tralfamadore. Even some of the things said to Billy when he was with the Tralfmamadorians are exactly the same things said to him by the guards in the prison camp: " 'Why me?' he asked the guard. The guard shoved him back into ranks. 'Vy you? Vy anybody?' he said." (91). The quote you used, Atticus, is an example of this parallel. When on the Tralfmamadorian spacecraft, Billy asks the same question with the same results. My question is why would Vonnegut draw up this comparison? I think the fact that the both the guards and the Tralfamadorians both take Billy's life out of his own control. In the prison, he is forced to take orders and the Tralfamadorians capture Billy without his consent. I think that, along with a strong case of PTSD, the Tralfamadorians could, in fact, be an hallucination induced by the effects the Germans had on Billy. He melds them together in one clump.
Delete"The little human family was staring at the floor of the canyon, one mile straight down"(89)
ReplyDeleteMy question is this: Why does Vonnegut repeat again and again this use of "human" or "human being" when referring to people? And, what does this say about the speaker and his tone?
In class, we came across this motif of "Human" or "human beings" repeatedly. I had not realized this before, so I delved into it, seeing it be used again and again in tonight's reading. I think Vonnegut disassociates himself from Billy or whomever he talks about in a most Tralfamadorian way; by using "human" to describe people, Vonnegut essentially alienates himself from the human race. He distances himself from the terrors they cause and the atrocities they inflict upon one another. He does not want to be lumped with the nonsensical cruelty of war. Experiencing the war first-hand caused Vonnegut to seek an escape. Billy uses time travel as his escape, though unsuccessfully since he can never escape the war and its effects on him. I think, Vonnegut is trying to convey a message to the reader. He is trying to pose the question: "What does it mean to be human? As humans do we accept the cruelties we impose on other people? Do we accept all the good with all the bad?
Oh my gosh, that was deep. I didn't really give that much mind, but now that you mention it, I COMPLETELY agree with you. He is basically trying to disassociate himself with the human race. Humans do terrible things during the war and they make themselves like heroes, even though war is actually murder. Vonnegut, on the other hand, feels terrible about it. And I love that philosophical question: "What does it mean to be human?" I believe that in order to be able to see Vonnegut's view completely, we must find out what he considers human.
DeleteDo you think that Vonnegut has a purely negative view of human beings? Does he believe in humans at all? In thinking about Billy's watching the war movie backwards, it seems like Vonnegut poses the question: How do innocent babies turn into Hitler? How do we stop seeing our shared humanity and accept war as a solution?
Delete"The guard shoved him back into ranks. 'Vy you? Vy anybody?' he said." (91)
ReplyDeleteI wonder why Vonnegut is so obvious about the parallels between different times in Billy's life.
When Billy Pilgrim first boards the Tralfamadorian ship, he asks, "Why me?" To which the aliens respond: "Why you? Why us for that matter? Why anything?"(77) The extreme similarity between these two quotes leads me to wonder why Vonnegut makes it so obvious that he wants us to connect these moments somewhat subconsciously. I believe Vonnegut is trying to compare the Tralfamadorian's to Billy's time in WW2. Another piece of evidence that I think supports this is the fact that the aliens do not believe in 'free will' and in many ways, there is not free will when it comes to war. Billy was drafted and therefore forced into war against his will. In war, you either die or kill. Not much freedom there.
"I think you guys are going to have to come up with a lot of wonderful new lies, or people just aren't going to want to go on living" (Vonnegut 101).
ReplyDeleteWhat does this quote really say about people? How does this connect to Billy?
This quote answers the question of why people tell lies when times are bad. People try to give motivation and hope for people by telling lies. But that doesn't work for people like Billy who has lost all motivation. Billy even says that he doesn't like life at all. The thing is that people who have gone to war have gone through so much stuff and seen so much stuffs that when they come back into the real world life feels like one big dream to them and it don't feel real anymore. So Billy is one of those peope that has gone through a lot in war and doesn't feel like reality is worth living. In this quote Rosewater is saying that people have to come up with better stories for them to live with motivation otherwise they going to end up like Billy. In the book it said that "he is dead to the world...but not actually dead"
" Why me?" he asked...The guard shoved him back into ranks. "Why you? Why anybody" he said." (91)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why does Vonnegut use the emotions of an individual to go after every body else generally? What is he trying to say?
Answer: While reading this line I noticed that Billy had asked this exact question to a Tralfamadorian in Chapter 4 (76). And it resulted to the answer : Why us for that matter?, why anything?. I felt like Vonnegut used the emotions of the American and Billy to kind of portray how humans can be closed minded at times, and how we don't focus on the bigger picture instead we focus on ourselves. The answers that both the American and Billy got after asking that question proved that there is always a bigger issue or a bigger picture. And it makes you want to question: What is the bigger picture Vonnegut is trying to portray to us?. I think that Vonnegut was trying to tell us how selfish humans can be when put in a situation that is uncontrollable, and at that point no one thinks about how others in the same situation are feeling, but only think about what how they are feeling.
"'Excuse me', Billy would say, or "I beg your pardon.'" (55).
ReplyDeleteWhat does the line mean? What could characters, moments or details represent/signify on a larger scale?
This quote, given its own line after Vonnegut's description of Billy's and Weary's painful walks and poor equipment, stood out to me because of its being so out of place. Things like "excuse me" and "pardon me" are generally words one hears in busy hallways or streets, certainly not war/near death experiences, where excuse me and pardon me seem out of place and frivolous things to say. This definitely provided a contrast between Billy and the situation he was in. Although the quote shows a lot about Billy's character, I questioned what the quote says about Vonnegut/the story in general.
In my annotations I wrote things like "contrast, peaceful, out of place, polite". Peaceful and polite are words that one wouldn't associate with war. Vonnegut may have included this quote to express his anti-war feelings through Billy's anti-war character. This also reminded me of when Billy's poor attire/equipment were described, making him a pitiful character the reader would have empathy for. His "excuse me" was something that also created a feeling of empathy, as it expressed his naivety and innocent characteristics, again contrasting him with the typical ideas of war.
This quote could also be used to contrast Billy and the people surrounding him. While his character is shown to be innocent and kind, those surrounding him have much different qualities. The book says that "nobody talked" in the stone cottage holding the war prisoners, contrasting Billy's warm, often friendly qualities. This also makes me compare Billy and Weary- Weary being incredibly selfish and doing things strictly for his own self-esteem, while Billy saying "pardon me" when bumping into Weary showed a certain amount of selflessness.
"There isn’t any particular relationship between the messages, except that the author has chosen them carefully, so that, when seen all at once, they produce an image of life that is beautiful and surprising and deep. There is no beginning, no middle, no end, no suspense, no moral, no causes, no effects. What we love in our books are the depths of many marvelous moments seen all at one time" (88).
ReplyDeleteQ: Why would Vonnegut choose to include this very random passage about books into the story? What is Vonnegut trying to communicate? What does this tell us about life?
A: When I first read this, I saw it as Vonnegut's secret message, telling his reader to read between the lines. Then it dawned on me that, it does not really matter that Vonnegut wrote this novel in this odd sequence of events. This whole time traveling nonsense does not effect the point he is trying to make. This shows that the message of a novel is more important than what is going on in the novel. I believe the greatest books are the books that can be analyzed. I loved this quote because this seems like something that is not just Tralfamadorian, but Human as well. Humans, in general, are interested in topics that have meaning and depth. I think that Vonnegut wrote this novel in a Tralfamadorian way, but at the same time I do not think he did. He succeeds in using different passages, but I feel like the readers must look for the depth of Vonnegut's word instead of it being obvious. I'm not sure if that makes sense...
"She upset Billy simply by being his mother. She made him feel embarrassed and ungrateful and weak because she had gone to so much trouble to give him life, and keep that going, and Billy didn't really like life at all." (102)
ReplyDeleteHow does this quote shed light on how Billy feels throughout his life? Is he suicidal? Do his time travel episodes help him cope with life or make him want to die even more?
Learning that Billy doesn't really like life gives me a great deal of insight on how Billy operates. Billy has no desire to live but he continues to live. I can feel his pain and use it to gain further knowledge. Knowledge of his dislike for life really shows me how extensive Billy's pain is and that is what makes this quote so eye-opening. I don't see Billy as suicidal. I think he is extremely depressed, void of life, has no joy, doesn't see the point of living, and he wants to die(even though he has before and he keeps replaying his death) but I don't think he wants to kill himself. He wants it all to be over with but he won't kill himself because he feels as if he knows his life so he will just let it run course. Time travel gives him a way to see his life and the depressing things about it. Seeing why his life is bad helps him cope because he understands it all.
To answer your question, I agree with your opinion that Billy does not want to kill himself, and that he is "void of life". He is not seeking to end his life, but takes no action whatsoever to protect himself from death. For example, on page 33, Billy "politely" gives the marksman another chance to shoot him, showing he doesn't care about preserving his life.
DeleteHowever, I disagree with the idea that time travel is somehow helping him cope. Although Billy does not seem to be as pitiful as he once was because of his wealthy status and (financially) comfortable life, he is still equally pitiful on the inside. His time traveling has caused to him to constantly live in fear- he has no idea what horrific memories he will be reliving next. Because of his time traveling, he is living his life in fear, uncertainty, and fantasy.
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