Well hello there, old friend! The blog is back. For this post, please: 1) Read Chapter 4 and choose a passage that stands out to you/intrigues you/confuses you. Type up the passage, in its entirety, and cite it.
2) Then, either:
- Ask a question and work through your confusion in a thorough response. Call on your classmates to also engage with this passage and unpack it together. OR--
- Look at specific language/literary devices/tools and write a response in which you examine the EFFECT of these devices. What do these observations that you've made DO for the novel?
Some reminders:
- Make sure that you BOTH create your own comment and also respond to a classmate's comment.
- Sign in using your full name so that your first and last name appear next to your comment.
- Make sure that you comment under your band
- Don't repeat classmates' passages. If someone has already used yours, then respond to it directly and choose another. There's plenty to discuss.
- Your comment should be at least 5-7 sentences or longer. Your reply to a classmate should be a thorough reply that pushes the conversation forward by asking follow-up questions and/or making connections to other parts of novel or other works. The use of textual evidence in a response is a great way to keep the conversation going!
- Please use appropriate grammar/punctuation. This is NOT a text message.
- Blog posts are due by 10pm the night before class. Let's get this done at a more reasonable hour, people!
“I am a Tralfamadorian seeing all time as you might see might see a stretch of the rocky mountains . All time is all time. Its does not change.It does no lend itself to warnings or explanations.It simply is. Take it moment by moment and you will find that we are all, as I’ve said before , bugs in amber...only on earth is there any talk of free will” (86)
ReplyDeleteI really like this passage because it gives us , the readers, insight how the Tralfamadorians feel about time and how much they understand and we don't “All time is all time. Its does not change.It does no lend itself to warnings or explanations.It simply is.” . When the Tralfamadorian says it simply is it shows how simplest they think of time , they never over think it because they can all ways like back and see their or someone else's life but, us on the other hand , we are ruled by time . We are also not able to except that times just is and there is nothing we can do about. In places all over the world weather it be in labs or in classrooms we are trying to explain time and how it work manipulate it to our own advantage but we take because “It simply is”
I also thought it was interesting that the Tralfamadorian said “only on earth is there any talk of free will” because I was wonder to they also not have the choice to chose where they go or what they see ?? -Nayah Ferris
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DeleteI agree with you and I really like that you brought that question up at the end because I didn't think of that before. As I think about it now, I think that's why Billy travels to places where he has no control. The Tralfamaforians are testing him. They don't like the fact that humans live under pressure and only think of time and they use Billy to prove that. I think that its weird though, because the Tralfamadorians control Billy, but they do not like to be controlled. Its almost as if they only care about the free will when it comes to other people and not themselves.
DeleteI strongly agree with you because it does give us insight to what the Tralfamadorians feel about time. I also think that it gives insight into the way Billy and the way the "earthlings" think about time because it controls our whole life. To answer your question about free will I think that the reason they are skeptical about the whole idea of free will is because their measurement of times different. I think that they do have a choice of what they do and what they see but because they live in the moment their idea of free will is a little different from the "earthlings."
Delete"Billy glanced dully at the coats of his neighbors. Their coats all had brass buttons or tinsel or pipping or numbers or stripes or eagles or moons or stars dangling from them. They were soldiers' coats. Billy was the only one who had a coat from a dead civilian. So it goes."(83).
ReplyDeleteThis passage stood out to me because I do not completely understand why Vonnegut chose for Billy to have a dead civilians coat. I think the reason could be because Billy has all these people around him who are dying and he is the only one who lives. His time traveling allows him to see that he is not going to die and I think that makes him worried for other people and not so much for himself. The fact that the coat is of dead "civilian" specifically, shows that it was just a random person; this coat could have belonged to anyone outside outside the war. If it were from another soldier like the rest of the guys receiving them, this moment wouldn't have been as significant as it is. Also, the other's coats are described so vividly and Billy's is just "a dead civilians coat" showing how much importance everyone else has over him. On the other hand, Billy glances "dully" at their coats which could mean that he doesn't really care too much about all the designs and patters and things on the coat. All he cares about is that this person died and he honors their death with "so it goes" as he does to everyone else who dies. This shows how much compassion he has for others which we got from the Tralfamadorians who at the end of the chapter say that free will only exists on Earth. This shows that maybe they chose Billy as a way to prove that it doesn't matter who you are, what you look like, or what you've been through, you need to care for others as well.
I completely agree with you Lisbeth. Billy does not seem to get what eh hopes for. Others blindly hate him because he is the cause of the death of Weary. Billy is always the compassionate one who thinks of other other than himself. I feel like the time traveling makes him fully aware of himself. Maybe he does not like how he is treated or does not mind it at all. It bring the question is he depressed? Does he not know how to cope with what is surrounding him? Billy takes everything in and does not have an outlet for his feelings. Maybe always asking questions in his heads or time traveling will be his only savior.
Delete"Billy looked at the clock on the gas stove. He had an hour to kill, before the saucer came. He went into the living room, swinging the bottle like a dinner bell, turned on the television. He came slightly unstuck in time, saw the late movie backwards, then forward again." (i read on the kindle therefore i do not have a full citation. someone please comment the full citation.)
ReplyDeleteWhen i read this i knew it meant Billy Pilgrim went back in time before and has seen this moment happen to him. I am a bit confused on this passage because of the way Billy seems to spend one of his last moments. He understands that he will be taken away but does not spend his time wisely. He spends ti watching TV. His wife i upstairs sleeping. I feel like he could have spent the time with his wife and create a few memories. HE could have woken her up made her breakfast or at least give her a kiss goodbye. She could have been another witness was to what was going on,. She could have testified and said she has seen the flying saucer. Maybe Vonnegut wanted Billy to watch the movie to illustrate how effected he is by war. To show how Billy i always surrounded by what has hurt him. Maybe he romanticizes war even though he seems to dislike it. I don't fully know but these are my inferences.
I agree with what you're saying and how Billy could have done more with his last moments before he was taken by the Tralfamadorians, but I think that the reason why he didn't was because he knew he was going to be taken. He already knows how to travel through time at this point, and since the Tralfamadorians will teach him how to travel eventually as well as how to not look at time in such a linear way, that he knows that he'll be taken and that he'll come. He also knows that they aren't evil and are doing this as a way to try to help him. Or, it could simply be his personality that he always seems to stand aside and either let aliens take him or let the opposite side have a second chance to shoot him in war as he is very giving and kind in that way. The citation is page 73-74 since you only have it on the kindle.
DeleteI agree with you, Maddy, but I disagree with you on the part where you said that he knows they aren't evil and are doing this to help him because I understand that he already knows he's going to be taken, however when he is taken by the Tralfamadorians, he questions them and seems momentarily afraid or confused of what's to come. I think he might be conflicted because he doesn't know what's really going on around him because at first he's just waiting for the saucer with nonchalance while his feelings change once he's in the saucer with the Tralfamadorians. Darlyn, I agree with you in some ways but I believe he just watches TV and doesn't spend much time with his wife because, like Maddy said, he doesn't care too much about what happens to him like how he accepts death and lets anything come in his way. I also believe that Vonnegut purposely did not want Billy's wife to witness the saucer and the Tralfamadorians because it takes away the purpose of the aliens coming for Billy and explaining their philosophy to him. The aliens might be an illusion in Billy's mind to cope with the effect the war had on him so his wife might not be able to see the Tralfamadorians like Billy can. In addition, making Billy the only one to see the aliens further shows the effect war had on himself rather than involving his wife.
DeleteI agree with your view on this passage, Darlyn. I found it ironic that he knows that he's going to be abducted by aliens in an hour at that moment and he spends the time doing something basic like watching TV. I think it not only shows how what he's doing illustrates how affected he is by war but also how he knows he time travels all the time so he can do anything anytime. This also shows how oblivious he is to the things going on around him such as war and the fact that he time travels. The question that stands would be why does Vonnegut make Billy Pilgrim so oblivious to what's going on around him no matter what the circumstances are?
DeleteIn a way, I understand your question, but the answer seems simple. Like we discussed in class, Billy can time travel, but it seems more like he experiences the memories he travels through, more than it seems like he actually lives and does what he wants in them. I think he didn't know initially, the first ever time this happened, what was about to happen, so he chose to watch TV. Then when he lives it over, he is sort of trapped in his own body, not able to alter what he had done the first time around.
Delete"It was a long time between clicks, between joints in the track. There would be a click, and then a year would go by, and then there would be another click." (77)
ReplyDeleteThis passage stood out to me because it reminded me greatly of the passage in chapter one about Vonnegut's own experiences, "The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again." (20) This confused me a little because I was unsure of how Vonnegut meant for this to affect or change the audience's opinions. He repeats the idea of time passing slowly when it's least wanted to and how things would click or twitch once, "a year would pass" and then it would click or twitch again. I think that he meant for this to be a bit of a hint that this book may not be entirely fictional and is actually about himself and his experiences. We know that it took him many years to write a book about his experience in war, and when he did it wasn't an autobiography but it was actually this work of "fiction" that we're reading now. Furthermore, Vonnegut understands that if he talks about how "travelled" to other places or escaped through his memories, he might be labelled as crazy, just like Billy Pilgrim is labelled. Both Vonnegut and Pilgrim have similar experiences in the war with being lone survivors and I think that the reason Vonnegut includes the beginning and ending chapters of his own first-person narration is to show that he is Billy Pilgrim. Otherwise, the full impact of the story and his humanist and anti-war ideas might not fully get across to the audience in the way that he wanted to. Otherwise, why else would Vonnegut include the similar language in both his first person passages and in his fictional, Billy Pilgrim passages?
I agree with your interpretation of how Vonnegut often refers to his own life, in his writing. I never thought of it that way and I was also confused when he would mention time like that. But now, I understand the relationship between his own life and the references to time.
Delete"Billy licked his lips, thought a while, inquired at last: 'Why me?'"
ReplyDelete"That is a very Earthling question to ask Mr. Pilgrim. Why you? Why us for that matter? Why anything? Because this moment simply is. Have you ever seen bugs trapped in amber?"
"Yes...Well here we are, Mr. Pilgrim, trapped in the amber of this moment. There is no why" (76-77).
This passage took me by surprise because so far in the novel, Billy Pilgrim was passive, not caring about his life too much such as accepting death. However, when the Tralfamadorians "kidnap" him, he suddenly questions them, not understanding the situation he is in. He has not done this before, always letting the situation play itself out but this reveals his real confusion and curiosity about why they would choose him out of all people. I believe that he thinks he is not beneficial or important in this world, thus letting death come to him, not resisting it. Also, the Tralfamadorian's reference to "Earthling" reminds me of how Vonnegut says in the beginning of the book, "As an Earthling, I had to believe whatever the clocks said-- and calendars" (20). In class, our prediction was that Vonnegut was foreshadowing that aliens will be mentioned in his book, but the way the Tralfamadorian uses "Earthling" seems as though humans are Earthlings who always question time rather than living in the present while the Tralfamadorians see themselves are beings who see everything for what it is without questioning anything. Also, the Tralfamadorians explain their philosophy at this time, sort of blaming humans for dwelling too much on the past and the future rather than living in the present. He tries to explain to Billy that the future is set and there is no point in trying to change it using "free will" since there is no way of altering it. We see a shift in Billy's character, from a passive person to someone who is curious about the Tralfamadorian's intentions. Simultaneously, I am confused about how before the saucer came to kidnap Billy, he already knew the Tralfamadorians were coming yet he simply watched TV and allowed the Tralfamadorians to kidnap him. This in itself shows his sudden shift in character because he knew these beings were coming for him, but he nonchalantly allowed them to, revealing his passive character. When he starts communicating with the Tralfamadorians, however, he is able to see the seriousness of the situation, thus making him vocal about his confusion.
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ReplyDelete"Billy didn’t want to drop from the car to the ground. He sincerely believed that he would shatter like glass"(81).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because I like how Billy was compared to glass. I think he believes he would "shatter like glass" because he is so hurt with what is going on in his life. But it also makes me wonder why he compares himself to glass and why would he care if he shatters or not since he does not care about what goes on and in certain moments he gives up. I think this is an important moment since in this moment he actually is demonstrating that he cares about what is going on and I think that he does not want to drop from the car because he wants to stay and see if a change could happen or if things could be different. I also think that it was interesting that he compared himself to glass because glass is transparent and I think that throughout the book Billy has been transparent and has shown that he does not care about what is going on and that he does not care if he dies or lives like when he stood on the road. I also think that this connects to the author because he probably felt this way since he has gone through a lot during the war that he couldn't stand it anymore. I think that Vonnegut felt like he was going to shatter like glass when writing this book since it was hard for him to write this book and remember the hard moments he went through.
I agree with you that Billy being compared to glass shows that he isn't passive in this moment, but his worried about his well-being. He is in pain, and through the Tralfamadorians say that he isn't going to die, his condition at the moment as a war prisoner goes to his head. Billy being compared to glass also shows that he doesn't feel like life matters in away because one always lives, making them empty.
Delete"On the eighth day, the forty-year-old hobo said to Billy, 'This ain't bad. I can be comfortable anywhere.' 'You can?' said Billy.
ReplyDeleteOn the ninth day, the hobo died. So it goes. His last words were, 'You think this is bad? This ain't bad.'" (79)
Vonnegut incorporates the hobo in the same train car as Billy to show that suffering differs for each person. The hobo is significantly older than the German soldiers as well as most of the other Americans in the train car, so he has experienced more in his life. He has felt true hunger and slept more uncomfortably than any of the people in these scenes. So he continuously repeats that "this ain't so bad". It also allows the reader to put things into perspective, and believe things could be worse, and there are people suffering much worse all over the world. Of course, this is ironic because Slaughterhouse Five is an anti-war novel, and it is not meant to be read only to think that war "ain't so bad". I think that is why the hobo dies-- because it ends up being that bad.
This quote also stood out to me because it was a combination of different lines that had been repeated several times already. When the hobo dies, Vonnegut writes, "so it goes", to emphasize the irony in a character who repeatedly says that "this ain't so bad". The hobo repeats "this ain't so bad", possibly to convince and distract himself from the truth, but more likely because he could have experienced much worse in his life, and in all truth, the situation he was in before he died wasn't "so bad", until, of course, he died.
I agree with this point and I find it very intresting because i was trying to figure out what exsactly the Hobo was supposed to represent and what he was supposed to do for the novel. This also got me thinking about Weary's death as well, perhaps both these chracters died to illustrate certain points about how people may try and argue that war "ain't so bad" until you die. however in the case of Weary, he represents the war hero view on war, Weary believed that war "ain't so bad" as well, but his reason was that when the war was over, he'd have many stories to tell and he'd be seen as a hero. But I also think that Vonnegut was trying to drive this point home more because of the emphasis on Weary's character even though he seems to die pretty quickly after being introduced.
Delete"He came to in what he thought might be a building on Tralfamadore. It was on Earth, though. It was a delousing station through which all new prisoners had to pass. Billy did what he was told, took off his clothes. That was the first thing they told him to do on Tralfamadore , too." (pg. 83)
ReplyDeleteThis passage interests me very much because it shows similarities between the Tralfamadorians and the war prison that Billy was sent to during the war. This brings up an interesting question which is; what do the similarities of the Tralfamadorians and the war prison say about Billy as a character? Well we can see that some of the similarities are that these are both things that happened to Billy against his will, however he seems to "go with the flow" with each of these situations, as he usually does. However, whats interesting about this is how it parallels with the Tralfamadorian idea that there's no such thing as "free will", because your whole timeline, past, present, and future is already all there, and that free will is an illusion. Perhaps this is why Billy seems so okay with being put in prison, because though his "freedom" is taken when he's put in prison, he sees freedom as an illusion, so being detained doesn't bother Billy, which would explain why he's so content throughout the whole war.
Your interpretation of the quote is very interesting. When I read this quote, I thought that Vonnegut was trying to show how out of this world war prisons can be. They are inhumane and shouldn't exist as a whole. Vonnegut comparing the prison to Tralfamadore also shows that people who are considered as others are always seen as untrustworthy. You would think that the Tralfamadorians, based on their philosophy, wouldn't treat others differently because at the end of the day it doesn't matter.
Delete" 'If I hadn't spent so much time studying Earthlings,' said the Tralfamadorian, 'I wouldn't have any idea what was meant by 'free will.' I've visited thirty-one inhabited planets in the universe, and I have studied reports on one hundred more. Only on Earth is there any talk of free will."(86)
ReplyDeleteThis quote highlights one of the major themes in this book which is time. The tralfamadorians have a different view of time and it's connection to fate since they don't follow the concept of free will and how time is not up to us humans, but it is up to a higher power than us that is superhuman. It is also interesting how the tralfamadorians almost can't believe that free will is actually something that us humans exercise. This also shows how we see the stereotypical alien life as not normal and how Vonnegut is making the readers see the reverse. Additionally, the fact that the tralfamadorian Billy is talking to has only seen that planet earth exercises free will out of all the other ones that he studies is interesting because it makes us consider how life would be if we didn't.
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DeleteI agree, I think the Tralfamadorians are commenting on the fact that we (Earthlings/humans) believe that there is such thing as free will when technically our free will is already predetermined by fate. As humans we need to feel some sense of control over our lives and our decisions to accept what happens but Tralfamadorians believe that everything just is. Also, connecting this to the topic of war, if we didn't have this need to have control and dominance and just lived, perhaps we wouldn't have any war. (I don't know, maybe it is more complex than that).
Delete"The American fliers turned in their uniforms, became high school kids. And Hitler turned into a baby, Billy Pilgrim supposed. That wasn't in the movie. Billy was extrapolating. Everybody turned into a baby, and all humanity, without exception, conspired biologically to produce two perfect people named Adam and Eve, he supposed. Billy saw the war movies backwards then forwards -and then it was time to go out into his backyard to meet the flying saucer."
ReplyDeleteIn the previous chapter, Billy Pilgrim explained that he could not change the past, present or future and just as it was confusing to me then, it is still very confusing to me now. Wouldn't just knowing that the Tralfamadorians were on their way to pick him up already change the future as he is now "killing time," waiting for their arrival? Perhaps my confusion is something that the Tralfamadorians were commenting on when they told Billy that everything just is and it is a concept that Earthlings are unable to grasp. As an "Earthling" I believe that there is a reason why he keeps going back to the past. Maybe it is his own coping mechanism to get through the war and find peace but I just feel as though there is a deeper meaning to it all. The passage that I chose also explains how Billy chose to watch the war movie backwards, watching all the destruction mend itself into the restoration of peace. He also goes further back in "time" to the moment when Adam and Eve were created and I believe that it might be a commentary on the destructiveness of human nature (referring back to Frankenstein) as Earthlings are at the beginning on the "timeline" that leads to war. And, connecting this back to my confusion of Billy not being able to change the past, present or future, I guess that the Tralfamadorians are saying that no matter how much you rewind, when you play a movie forwards, it will repeat the same line of events and how you jump from one moment to another won't change that. (Although it would technically change the story line if you play it in a different sequence).
*Sorry that passage was from page 75
Delete"The American fliers turned in their uniforms, became high school kids. And Hitler turned into a baby, Billy Pilgrim supposed... Everybody turned into a baby, and all humanity, without exception, conspired biologically to produce two perfect people named Adam and Eve, he supposed" (75).
ReplyDeleteThis passage stands out to me because it relates to the first chapter, in which Mary O'Hare says, "You were just babies in the war" (14). Mary O'Hare believes that the war is fought by a bunch of innocent and naïve babies who haven't experienced enough to realize how cruel our society actually is and that we can never regain this innocence. The backwards war that Billy Pilgrim watches on television (74-75) portrays the idea of just how cruel our world can be by helping us retrace our steps in humanity and see where we went downhill. It's unbelievable to think that Hitler, was once an innocent child, but the backwards movie emphasizes the reality that innocence cannot be regained. This is also shown when he says, "everyone turned into a baby...conspired biologically to produce two perfect people named Adam and Eve" because both Adam and Eve were innocent, but once they gave that innocence up, the rest of humanity could never be innocent again.
I completely agree with you and I really liked how you related this quote back to the passage about Mary O'hare. I also really liked the point you brought up about Hitler once being a baby because I never really thought about that, he too was once an innocent, immature human that was brought into society and turned into a manipulative monster. It just goes to show that once we are smart enough to observe the lifestyle and ways of society, it influences the way we think and can turn us into the complete opposite of a human. Billy is specifically relating this all back to war and how he was a naive baby when he entered and came out as a terrorized boy. The war didn't make him stronger and didn't make him more manly, it just embedded societies sick lifestyle and standard into his head and ultimately made his outlook on everything worse
DeleteI really agree with your point I also think it reveals more about the effects of war on people as well as Vonnegut's own view of people. Clearly, Vonnegut understands that even the most violent and cruel people such as Hitler, all start out at the same place as anyone else and that everyone at some point is an innocent child, but the effects of a society filled with war can change that. Also when he talks about the soldiers being transformed back to a high school student he reveals how war strips people away from their lives forever. And on top of that, by drawing his connection all the way back to Adam and Eve he reveals how long unnecessary violence and war has continued on since practically the beginning of time.
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ReplyDeleteIt would take another Earthling to explain it to you. Earthlings are the great explainers, explaining why this event is structured as it is, telling how other events may be achieved and avoided" (85).
ReplyDeleteQuestions: Why do Earthlings feel the need to explain everything?
This quote really stood out to me because it shows how delusional Earthlings are to think that they can control time. Unlike like the Tralfamadorians, Earthlings are fixated on finding out why and how things because it gives them a sense of control. They also believe that they have the power to "achieve" or "avoid" events in time that are ultimately completely out of their control. However, the Tralfamadorians make it clear that "time is time" so Earthlings being "great explainers" only benefits them in term of making them feel safe and in control. According to the Tralfamadorian ideas on time, I believe that they will not agree with Earthlings reasons for war, but see it and an event justified by their explaining. This quote also reminds me of Macbeth and his desire to take his fate into his own hands. However, his pursing of this desire lead to his own downfall when he could have taken life/time "moment by moment" because it does not change. Billy, on other hand, after learning the philosophy of the Tralfamadorians, gives up his desire to explain why things are through believing that time cannot be change which is why he is passive about his own death and the death of others. He also doesn't attempt in anyway to control where he jumps to in time because he knows that it is out of his control. This quote also made me wonder who/what controls time?
I completely agree with you and I think that the Tralfamadorians say that he would need another human to explain it to him because since they do not questions things like humans do, then they don't always have answers of what and why things work because they just know they are meant to do that. So since they don't know how to explain such things because they have never thought to question why, then they are unable to explain it to Billy.
DeleteNia Gordon
ReplyDelete3/22/15
G Band
“It simply is. Take it moment by moment, and you will find that we are all, as I've said before, bugs, in amber.” (86)
This quote stood out to me because of the clear message that the Tralfamadorian is bringing up with Billy. What the Tralfamadorian is trying to explain to Billy is that it is better to live life in the moment rather than to think about the past or the future. When living in the moment and individual is able to to appreciate the life they are living. The Tralfamadorian says to “take it moment by moment” this clearly illustrates the Tralfamadorians measuring of time. When reading this quote I think that time is measured through moments and thoughts and not by clocks or any numerical form I think and that is why their vocab does not use words like why, and constantly uses the word “is.” When the Tralfamadorian says “bugs in amber” I think that this means that time can be anything around us. When a bug is stuck in amber, that bug is preserved forever but everything around it is constantly moving and growing so that could also be considered a measurement of time. Ultimately I think that the Tralfamadorian is trying to introduce a new way of living to Billy by eliminating the element of strict time.
I agree! I also think that by telling Billy to take it "moment by moment", it implies that the Tralfamadorians are not only taking away the restriction of time, but of chronological order as well. So, Billy should look at individual moments that impacted him, and be able to reflect on those moments, (and travel back to them), without being restricted to the forward movement of time.
DeleteI also agree with you and I think that the Tralfamadorian is trying to tell him to live the moment rather than think about moments in the past present or future. I think that when he refers to bugs in Amber he is trying to say that people should focus in the moment there are in rather than worrying about other moments. I also think that when the Tralfamadorian refers to the bug in the amber he is saying that when people are in a moment the moments will be and will happen and nothing you do will change the way the moment will go. Just like when a bug is in amber there is nothing he can change or do and the moment just goes the way it should.
DeleteI agree, when I read this passage I immediately thought of Jurassic Park and how the bugs kept in amber were used to create something from the past in the present. I think the Tralfamadorians are saying that the past is all around us and are using the bugs in amber as a physical example of that so Billy can understand what they mean when they see all moments of time.
Delete"The light from the portholes was a pulsing purple. The only noise it made was the owl song. It came down to hover over Billy, and to enclose him in a cylinder of pulsing purple light" (76).
ReplyDeleteQuestion: What does Vonnegut's descriptive use of color represent?
This quote stood out to me because it highlights Vonnegut's descriptive use of color throughout Slaughterhouse 5. Throughout the beginning of the chapter, Vonnegut continuously describes Billy's feet as being "blue and ivory"(75). Normally, people with blue and ivory feet are extremely cold, dull, and usually dead. Through his repetition of those colors it leads me to believe that even though Billy is technically alive, in the moment of the book he feels dead, or maybe inhuman. But then, soon after Vonnegut uses these deathly descriptions, he describes the Tralfamadorian saucer as a "pulsing purple" the exact opposite, seeing as anyone with a pulse is alive and purple is also a much brighter and warmer color than blue or ivory. This reveals that Billy is more connected to Tralfamadorians than he is to humans and that he finds safety and life in the philosophy of the Tralfamadorians. After living with the traumatic effects of witnessing Dresden first hand and taking part in a war, Billy can no longer find life/safety in humans but rather has to turn to a new philosophy and unearthly creatures to truly recover.
I agree. Purple is a much more welcoming color and one of friendship in a sense while blue is a very cold color. I think the Tralfamadorians make Billy feel more alive in a sense, rather than his sort of dull life as an optometrist with people all around him dying. I thought your comparisons of color to the text was very true.
Delete"He would not raise his eyes to the sky, though he knew there was a flying saucer from Tralfamadore from up there. He would see it soon enough, inside and out, and he would see too, where it came from, soon enough, soon enough."(75)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it says a lot about the person that Billy is and why he does certain things. He doesn't dare to look up at the sky because he knows whats to come and believes there is no point. Billy lives in his time traveling and lives in the present and past moments that he becomes aware of and refuses to participate or be active in the reality he is living now. He doesn't see a point in living in reality because he doesn't feel like anything he does will erase whats happened or whats about to come. I also related this back to Macbeth, and how once Macbeth realized he was going to be king he immediately decided to take his fate in his own hands and attempts to make his future even brighter. On the other hand, Billy lets nature take its course.
I agree with you, but I might also add how this connect to the larger theme of time. This quote also stood out to me because it showed how Billy was willing to live in the moment and enjoy the present, rather than always looking ahead. Humans today have troubles living in the present, since we are always wrapped up in time and set ourselves to work around the clock. But, in this moment Billy seems to have freed himself from the habit we do as humans and allows himself to not focus on the huge saucer which is about to take him away in the very near future. We have seen other aspects of Billy's character where he seems as if he does not care about the future and lives in the moment simply because he does not care about what happens to him. However, here Billy is focusing on the present for a purpose and doesn't want to look ahead because he knows he can enjoy the future when time makes it into the present.
Delete"I've visited thirty-one inhabited planets in the universe, and I have studied reports on one hundred more. Only on Earth is there any talk of free will" (109)
ReplyDeleteThis whole section really stood out to me because with the subject of fate and freewill they were tying in the idea of time and how peoples perception of times, like those on earth, and the only reason for these ideas of fate or freewill. The Tralfamadorians and Billy say that people on Earth have this idea of free will which means that they can help change their fate, but on the contrary the Tralfamadorians are against that. They are saying that if people don't have the ability to change time in anyway, then theres no way that that can alter their fate. They say to live "moment by moment" (109) because there is no point in doing things to change your fate because no matter how much you you try to change your fate, because there is nothing we can change about time then really there is nothing one can change about their fate. Which is why I think the Tralfamadorians refer to people as "bugs in amber" (109) because as much as they try to escape and run away from their fate, they are stuck and are destined for what is meant to happen when it is meant to happen.
I completely agree with the fact that it stands out as a quote because in the same way that the Tralfamadorians believe that you can not change your fate no matter what you do, they also do not allow form of freedom. For example, when they "strapped"(77) billy down in a cabin, they were simply going to take him to their zoo, where freedom does not exist. Further proving their point that no matter what you do, you can not change your fate. This in turn, goes back to your point about "bugs in amber"(109), You can not escape your fate.
DeleteI agree! It is clear that the Tralfamadorians have a belief that fate is inevitable. I thought that the Tralfamadorian called people "bugs" because they believe people are incapable of driven thoughts and "in amber" because they are stuck in what their fate has to offer.
Delete"Above all, he wanted to be avenged, so he said again and again the name of the person who had killed him. Everyone on the car learned the lesson well." (79)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why is it so important for Weary's death to be avenged?
This quote stood out to me because it enforces the idea that everything happens for a reason and that everything that happens in our life must be part of some greater plan. Weary saw himself as a hero who loves war and was so enthusiastic to go to war and fight, so to die in war must mean that he would go down fighting. Dying of disease must have seemed too normal and wimpy, so Weary had to paint a picture for all of his fellow soldiers to tell back to anyone who asked so people know that Ronald Weary had a noble death. This also reminded me of the first chapter of this book when Kurt Vonnegut is playing around with ideas of his novel which involve romanticizing the war. Mary O'Hare is quick to shut down this idea by criticizing him for trying to make war seem like more than it is, which allows war to continue in a vicious cycle. Weary is doing the same thing as Vonnegut would have done, if he wrote a romanticized story of war, by acting as if he went down fighting and deserved to be avenged. Rather than just telling the truth, Weary feels the need to lie about his death to avoid seeming weak or not seem like the strong soldier that he has built himself up to be in his mind. This also stood out to me because he was able to get the entire train car to learn his story and repeat what he said. Now with the whole train car reciting a lie, Weary could try and convince himself that he was this brave war hero, rather then just face the truth of what war actually is.
I like this quote a lot, and I agree with you. Weary is such a disillusioned character; aside from convincing his fellow soldiers that he was a war hero, rather than dying of gangrene, he is also constantly convincing and reassuring himself that he was part of a dynamic trio, the three musketeers. In reality, we saw that the scouts were partners, and they did not care about Weary very much, but he is so desperate to be portrayed as a valiant soldier that he convinced himself otherwise. I think it is important for Weary's death to be avenged because although this is a pretty meaningless thing because he wasn't actually murdered, it sounds like something out of a movie, and I think that's why Weary kept repeating that he wanted his death to be avenged. We saw in the previous chapters that he came equipped with everything you would stereotypically believe is needed in war, and I think Weary's need for the avengement of his death is him furthering his preconceived idea of a heroic war story.
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ReplyDelete"Billy was guided by dread and the lack of dread. Dread told him when to stop. Lack of it told him when to move again. He stopped." (p. 73)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: What does this reveal about Pilgrim? What kind of person is he?
This passage stands out to me, because it seems to pack a lot about Billy Pilgrims character, and motivations into a few sentences. Billy is a character driven by not his own will, but fear. He is told when he should "move" when he is less scared, and when he is more scared, he feels it is appropriate to go forward. Prior to reading this, I knew Billy Pilgrim wasn't necessarily the most confident character, but I thought he worked by his own will. How can one live when they are driven, and sometimes motivated, by fear? How does that make Billy feel, is it dehumanizing? This could relate to his time-travel. When he is "time-traveling", is the time travel just happening to him, or is he in control, doing what he wants? How much of what happens in Billy's life just happens to him, and how much does Billy actively seek out?
Hey Lucas! I really enjoyed your post and I thought it was interesting that you ask if Billy wants to be "time-traveling". I've been wondering myself if being "stuck in time" is really all that superior to living like "Earthlings" do. I know that I would much prefer to live in the moment, instead of constantly being taken back into another time. Billy also lacks any element of surprise in his life, which I think would make it pretty dull. I also really liked that quote as well!
Delete"The hold of the saucer was crammed with other stolen merchandise, which would be used to furnish Billy's artificial habitat in a zoo in Tralfamadore"(77).
ReplyDeleteThis is very interesting to me because it just supports the statement of the Tralfamadorians not believing in freedom. That is because for one, they are planning on taking Billy back to their planet that is centuries away from earth, just to place him in their zoo. This is nothing more than a mere representation of how they treat other species from different planets. Since they do not believe in freedom, it is only ironic that they place a human who believes in freedom in a cage. In other words the true meaning of this quote is irony for the simple fact that billy is a human and humans believe in freedom and tralfamdorians don't. So they place said human in a zoo. Thus creating an ironic situation. That is what i find interesting about this quote.
I disagree, because I don't think it is that the Tralfamadorians don't believe in freedom, I think it is because they have never heard of the concept. Them imprisoning Billy was just a pause in time, a state that was maybe a bit negative. Because of their non-linear view, the 'kidnapping' is completely justified, and it could be positive, as Billy learns a bit more about the world and in turn can see past war. I however agree with the irony. as the zoo statement makes it seem as if Billy is just an another animal. (Which billy of course is as a human.)
Delete"Billy Pilgrim was lying at an angle on the corner-brace, self-crucified, holding himself there with a blue and ivory claw hooked over the sill of the ventilator." (80)
ReplyDeleteIs Billy Pilgrim a Christ figure?
I couldn't help but connect this quote to one in a previous chapter: "Billy had an extremely gruesome crucifix hanging on the wall of his little bedroom in Ilium...Billy's Christ died horribly. He was pitiful. So it goes." These two quotes, obviously connected by it sharing the theme of a crucifix, show a comparison between Billy Pilgrim and Jesus Christ. After looking further into the comparison, I saw many similarities in the two figures. Billy Pilgrim is a figure that shows great sacrifice throughout "Slaughterhouse Five", he is placed in the front lines of World War Two, he is stationed in Dresden when the entire place was destroyed, and he was chosen to be the only human taken by the Tralfamadorians back to their home planet. Meanwhile, Jesus is described as the "lamb of god" (biblically, a sacrificial lamb). Jesus and Billy also learned their philosophies from mysterious divinities, God for Jesus and the Tralfamadorians for Billy. After making these comparisons I believe that Billy Pilgrim is indeed a Christ figure, despite his seemingly bumbling persona.
Whoa.. I hadn't looked at it this way until you pointed it out but now that you did I completely agree. That would make so much sense especially with all the biblical comparisons of soldiers and Hitler going from bad people to perfection like Adam and Eve who are also holy figures. I do wonder why it is that Vonnegut chose this specific comparison or what exactly shows a connection about himself in Billy with the comparison to Jesus because after all, I do believe that Vonnegut describes himself through Billy at times.
DeleteI really like that connection (also billy "pilgrim", as in a voyage for religion), and I wonder what Vonnegut intends by it. Do you think he's commenting on the martyrdom of christ/war heroes and how that manipulates millions to kill for a false cause? Or, by his humanist and scientific background, do you think he is tying the aliens to God? and by this do you think he points out its ridiculousness or its application? put simply, do you think he condemns or supports religion? Or do you think he merely presents it as an inevitability? cause idk
Delete“The Americans were wheedled and teased over to those three stacks, which weren’t hay after all. They were overcoats taken from prisoners who were dead. So it goes.”(81)
ReplyDeleteThis quote exposes brutally exposes the finality of war, and in doing so reinforces Vonnegut’s vision that war is a hell. He keeps on using these scenes right after something positive - like cooking dinner, or eating dinner. Pilgrim and the other prisoners are piled in a dark and dank train car while the Germans eat and laugh and have fun. However, this exposes the question: how could this parallel the other side? Nobody is pictured as holier in the war, the Americans are generally buffoons and the Germans are horrible, but it could be estimated that the German POW were treated no differently. He also foreshadows that the prisoners are practically dead, as they are sitting and sleeping by the belonging of those dead; who isn’t to say that their overcoats will eventually join the pile?
I agree with the point that Vonnegut is trying to show the brutalities of war by showing the harsh conditions that Billy and the other POWs had to go through. I also agree that it raises many questions and just the line "They were overcoats taken from prisoners who were dead." has such a big meaning for just one line and means so much things.
Delete"Billy saw the war movies backwards then forwards--and then it was time to go out into his backyard and meet the flying saucer" (75).
ReplyDeleteQuestion: What does this reveal about the importance of time?
This passage stood out to me because I found it interesting that Billy would watch the war movie backwards. As a result of watching the movie with this different perception of time, Billy interprets the movie differently. For example, by rewinding the war in the movie, violent actions alter into more harmonized ones. This reveals the importance of chronology and the order in which things happen in time. Billy goes against chronological order and in doing this his perception on war transforms. Changing the order of events and manipulating how time is conceived seems to be an overarching theme in the novel.
"The Americans' clothes were meanwhile passing through poison gas. Body lice and bacteria and fleas were dying by the billions. So it goes." (84)
ReplyDeleteWhat is the significance of 'so it goes', and what does this passage suggest?
I think that the reason Kurt Vonnegut said 'so it goes' after talking about the death of fleas and bacteria is to show how impersonal of a reaction that is. The attitude of 'so it goes', when talking about death shows that you simply accept it, and do not feel any extreme remorse. Kurt Vonnegut, as we could see from the interview we listened to, believes that war is murder, and when many people die, you are supposed to feel sorrow. Many people, however, simply accept the bloody massacre of millions of people. I think that Kurt Vonnegut is suggesting that you might as well be taking about a bunch of insects when you act so nonchalant about these deaths. He is highlighting that it is a very inhumane reaction. Also, these insects are being killed in a way that is very similar to how war criminal are often killed. They are all exposed to poison gas, and die in great numbers. Billy and the other POWs are in a death cam, where this is a common way of killing people. I am not completely sure about what Kurt Vonnegut means to do by juxtaposing the death of tons of insects to humans, but it was definitely purposeful to draw these connections.
“And now there was an acrimonious madrigal, with parts sung in all quarters of the car. Nearly everybody, seemingly, had an atrocity story of something billy Pilgrim had done to him in his sleep. Everybody told Billy Pilgrim to keep the hell away.” (Vonnegut 100)
ReplyDeleteBilly was always seen as different or strange in everybody else’s eyes. He was the odd one out that didn’t have the right equipment or clothing for war. But he’s never really seemed to mind much either. He “goes with the flow”, and does not want to stick out. When his fellow soldiers point out his flaw in his sleeping pattern, he seems shocked and unbelieved. He keeps repeating, “I do?” out loud to (himself) soldiers. Sleeping is, in my opinion, the only time Billy Pilgrim sees himself as normal and like the rest. He just sleeps and nothing else. But when it’s pointed out to him, he feels the need to sleep standing up or not sleep at all. It’s not that he doesn’t want to bother the other soldiers, its that he doesn’t want to “yell, kick, and whimper”.
Also, I want to point out that anytime Vonnegut says something about Billy, he always puts both his first and last name together. Never just one.
I see what you are saying but I also think about it and I think that when he saids "I do?" he is just telling him self that. That it is not that he has to keep reminding him self of that, he is just telling him self about what he is doing to him self and the way that people see him as that it reminds him of who he is and why he does certen things the way that he does. And to respond to your last thought I have also noticed that I think that it might be because his name really does have meaning like when we talked about it in class and that maybe if he just used his first or last name it might not have the same meaning as it does together.
Delete"It was their business to put them into the ground, hide them cleverly, so they would never hurt anybody again...everybody turned into a baby, and all humanity, without exception, conspired biologically to produce two perfect people named Adam and Eve, he supposed." (75)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: What is the message that Vonnegut is trying to get across by showing this movie and Billy's thoughts on it?
At first, I had to read this page over again because I couldn't understand what significance was behind Billy's view on the movie. But, then when I read it over I realized that Billy watches the movie backwards and forwards and in the end he makes a holy comparison to Adam and Eve who he thinks of to be "perfect". It became clear to me that Billy and Vonnegut through the protagonist, tried to highlight the negativity that comes with war. Then, when he imagines that all of these people go back to being babies, he is showing how he thinks people should be instead: vulnerable and innocent just like babies. Instead of outright saying that war is bad, Vonnegut shows it from beginning the movie negatively and as the movie progresses backwards, it be comes peaceful, just as Billy/Vonnegut think life would be without wars.
"The American fliers turned in their uniforms, became high school kids. And Hitler turned into a baby, Billy Pilgrim supposed. That wasn't in the movie. Billy was extrapolating. Everybody turned into a baby, and all humanity, without exception, conspired biologically to produce two perfect people named Adam and Eve., he supposed" page 75
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why draw parallels between Hitler and ww2, and Adam and Eve?
This passage stood out to me when I was reading because of Vonnegut's specific use of Adam and Eve. It is more than ironic to even mention World War 2, a barbaric war that killed thousands, and then Adam and Eve, the first two people to roam the Earth, from which all people came from, the people who created warfare, the people who fought in World War 2, the people who flew these planes in the movie that Billy Pilgrim watched back and forth, dropping bombs on a city of helpless people. It is a captivating parallel that Vonnegut draws up in the passage. It makes me think about the notion of things in reverse and forwards and how that relates to Billy and his time travels. Can Billy, or even more specifically Vonnegut, a troubled human being full of questions, who has seen and witnessed many things he wished he hadn't, only truly understand his morality and these hideous events he has witnessed through a backwards spectrum? Just as Billy understood the War movie, watching it backwards. He watches the bombing of the city and the deaths of many in reverse, only to realize that all of it came from Adam and Eve, two perfect people. Maybe through his time travel, by reliving the events of his past, which he doesn't necessarily enjoy, can Billy truly only understand who he really is. This is Vonnegut's way of expressing the same thing, and that only by writing a book about his experiences, he can move on from them.
can he*
Delete"She was perfectly nice,standard-issue,brown haired, white women with a high-schol education"(102)
ReplyDeleteThis passage stood out to me because Billy is indifferent to bullying and beating however when he is shown love he is "embarrassed and ungrateful"(102). This reinforces the point that Billy is not liked by others in the book because his reaction to love shows that he gets very little of it by others which causes him to react awkwardly. However when he is beaten up by billy he takes it and just lets it happen as if it should be happening and not fight back which shows he is used to being bullied and pushed around by others. This also shows how the war affected Billy due to being in such dire conditions in war, he is not used to love and peace.
"Some people were rising from the floor of the car, and others were lying down. Billy planned to lie down, too. It would be lovely to sleep. It was black in the car, and black outside thehttp://putlocker.is car, which seemed to be going two miles an hour" (77).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stands out to me because the description of this moment and very strange and could possibly be inhuman. It is very weird to see that people are rising from the floor of the car, which seems physically impossible. Also, I was wondering from reading why he couldn't sleep. Was it because he was afraid to time travel? Or has he been through so much that he wasn't able to sleep?in addition, it occurred to me that the car is painted all black, but why? I believe that the car is painted all black to hide what is going on within the car. The color black may also be a color that everyone just happens to use.
To answer your question, I do think that he is afraid of time travel because of the fact that he can't put things behind him. They keep reoccurring forcing him to think about the stuff that he did wrong multiple times, and seeing your own death is uncomprehensible and would mess anybody up. Plus, he must be going back to some really unpleasant experiences in his life so obviously he wouldn't want to see that stuff over and over again.
Delete"On the ninth day, the hobo died. So it goes. His last words were "You think this is bad? This ain't bad."
ReplyDeleteThis "hobo" had a lot of courage to approach death the way that he did. I think that in today's society we are to mixed up with getting money and living well that we forget that everyone is human. We all make mistakes and no matter how poor or rich you are, you are god nor beast, but human. I think that Vonnegut's experience in WW2 lets him understand that and wants to get across the message to other people. Also, The "so it goes" part just shows how much Billy has changed to become more like the Tralfamadorians because I know most people would be balling and on the verge, if not in a deep depression if they saw someone die right in front of them, especially with someone with so much death surrounded by himself. And even if it wasn't about the fact that the person was not suffering anymore and maybe it was just that one point on the timeline and all the other parts they were happy and not suffering, he should still be upset about all the death surrounding him because they aren't there with him anymore. All these holes in his being that somehow he manages to patch up and keep going shows his toughness as a character.
pg. 79 my bad yo
ReplyDeleteTo answer your question, I do think that he is afraid of time travel because of the fact that he can't put things behind him. They keep reoccurring forcing him to think about the stuff that he did wrong multiple times, and seeing your own death is uncomprehensible and would mess anybody up. Plus, he must be going back to some really unpleasant experiences in his life so obviously he wouldn't want to see that stuff over and over again.
ReplyDeleteSorry that was supposed to be a comment for Keona....
Delete"The champagne was dead. So it goes.” (73)
ReplyDelete“Body lice and bacteria were dying by the billions. So it goes” (84)
What do Vonnegut’s similar use of “so it goes” in different contexts of death reveal?
These instances of Vonnegut using “so it goes” really stood out to me because these “deaths" seem so insignificant, yet they are being described the exact same way he describes a human death. Vonnegut uses “so it goes” throughout the book whenever a death is mentioned, always priorly human, as a way to point out that death is just a way of life. However, he uses the phrase so frequently that it becomes almost tedious, to the point where you are unable to distinguish if you are growing weary of the phrase, or of death itself. Human deaths are not usually something to be brushed off, however, here Vonnegut is placing humans on the exact same terms as bacteria, bugs, and champagne: either inanimate objects or things commonly regarded as gross. By doing this he is telling us that we shouldn’t distinguish between deaths, as one is not more significant than another, and none in fact are significant at all. However, in actuality he is criticizing this concept, as it is a characteristic of the lack of compassion in war, which he condemns. This complicates how we should perceive his writing because by telling us repeatedly that death is insignificant, he is really trying to frustrate the reader. He wants us to get angry with the fact he is saying a human life is no more important than a bottle of champagne, and he wants us to get angry at the fact that in war, human lives are seen as no more than that.
But this too This also complicates the concept he is trying to convey because he is trying to get us (the readers) to think in a way he is condemning. By
*disregard the last part
DeleteI agree and I also find it interesting how Vonnegut is so against war and death that even using the word death when describing an inanimate object provokes his criticism. Vonnegut is also trying to remove the concept of using death to describe anything because he believes it is such a terrible thing that we shouldn't use the word to talk about items that have no value.
Delete"There was something about death and the ninth day. There was death on the ninth day in the car ahead of Billy's too." (100).
ReplyDeleteI picked this quote because I have started to see that the idea of death has come up manny times during the first part of this book. I think it is major idea and is going to contuine to be repeated though out the rest of the book. That people who wittiness death over and over again are bound to have reactions to there experiences. That because of all the death that he has seen and I predict that he will, will have an affect on how he thinks of things and a lot of his chooies that he planes to make in the further. That they will change because of what they have seen. And I think that Vonnegut is using death to show how something that might not seem so big now will end up being a major part in how they see the world and what they think it should be done/run. That death in anyone's life is major and to see it over and over again is very traumatic.
-Eleanor Hill
Ralphie Spina
ReplyDeleteQuote: “There was a soft drink bottle on the windowsill. Its label boasted that it contained no nourishment whatsoever” (73)
Knowing that this book is an anti-war novel Vonnegut will use any way possible to bash war. The “soft drink” is a symbol for war. Saying it contains “no nourishment whatsoever” shows that war has is useless and unnecessary. Also saying “its label boasted” demonstrates the idea of war propaganda. War propaganda brags about how honorable it is to fight while in reality the propaganda tells you to come fight in a battle that will only result in death and destruction. The again people like “soft drinks” they taste good, but does war really make people happy? War can make people happy if they get what they want in the end, Vonnegut may even be criticizing the rising militarism as well as the Romanization of war. Vonnegut’s comparison reveals war as something people do even though they know it isn’t good for them that has no purpose at all.